The Iraq war and the 2008 election

[ProfJohn]

The Iraq War is a horrible anchor around the neck of the Republican Party and the Democrats figure to win in 2008 based on that alone.

However, if the Democrats force us to withdraw before the election won?t they end up hurting their chances?
1. With the War and Bush gone the Democrats will not be able to do a repeat of 2006 and run a ?Bush is bad, we are better? campaign and will instead have to run on their own ideas. And face it; the Democrats have not won an election based on their ideas since 1960. Carter won because of Watergate and Clinton won because of the economy.

2. If the war is over the Republican who runs in 2008 can run a fresh campaign based on the future and won?t have to spend time trying to defend the war and convince the American people that staying in Iraq is the right thing to do.

3. With the war over whatever happens in Iraq will be the fault of the Democrats and the Democrats alone. If the civilian death toll double and chaos reigns on the streets creating an instability that causes the price of oil to go up it will all be the Democrats fault.

Furthermore, if Iraq does disintegrate the 2008 Democrat candidate will have to explain why leaving Iraq was the right thing to do despite mass chaos and bloodshed that follows our leaving.

The only hope for the Democrats would be for us to leave and things to stay the same or getter better in Iraq, or at least not get SO bad that people view our leaving as a bad thing. Anything else and the Democrats are in trouble.
It seems like the Democrats are playing with fire and getting what they want in the form of a withdrawal may end up hurting them in the end.

 

[jpeyton]

If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

The Republicans will look weak because the Democrats ran for the hills?

What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

Why do you think it will go to hell after we leave?

 

[TheBDB]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

The Republicans will look weak because the Democrats ran for the hills?

What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

At least Americans won't be dying in that hell

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Iraq will explode ten seconds after we leave. Then the marketing campaign (from both sides) will begin to assign the blame. You think the world hates us now? Wait 'till after we leave.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

Why do you think it will go to hell after we leave?

Because we are about the only thing keeping the Sunni and Shiites from all out warfare.

In the first two months of the surge the death toll in all of Iraq dropped 20%. Now imagine if we got up and left tomorrow. Why would things get better? Wouldn't they be able to engage in open warfare without worrying about our military getting in the way?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's a tricky game alright, however most Americans know Iraq is going to hell right now and expect it go get worse for some time after we leave. The question comes to this- how long do we let Americans die to keep Iraq intact? Most Americans do not, nor ever did care about Iraq. They wanted the WMDs out. They wanted the terrorists out. Well the WMDs were specious, and now it's clear Iraq isn't about terrorism, but about two groups of people who hate each other enough to blow the crap out of themselves.

The other side of this doesn't revolve around active fighting, but what happened in the most secretive administration perhaps in history. No one really knows who knew what when. All the Dems have to do is just rake muck. As I've said elsewhere, the Dems can club the Reps like a baby seal, and the reps will even give them the stick to do it with.

 

[Lemon law]

Non-Prof John asks--What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

If you read the fine print---the proposed withdrawal starts in October and end by March 08---giving the internationally community plenty of time to step up and come up with a plan.

Something impossible now as GWB&co. insist on being the sole decider's.--and maybe you should ask what happens when the international community stabilizes Iraq---how will Republicans look then?

Another part of the fine print you did not read is the Reid offer to talk and co-operate in a bi-partisan manner----which GWB&co has always snubbed in the past. So maybe you can regard this as a democratic shot across the bow to GWB&co.---and if GWB&co decides to get real--maybe some good can come out of this rather than being a lose lose trainwreck.

But like it or not non Prof John---the congress has lost patience with the head Turkey---and they can get back at Bush in countless ways. Don't count on it that GWB is going to come out looking good and congress will look bad---the dems are not as stupid as GWB&co.

And besides---you are needed on another thread---they need your assurances that the surge is working.---tell em its not so John--tell em its not so.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Non-Prof John asks--What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

If you read the fine print---the proposed withdrawal starts in October and end by March 08---giving the internationally community plenty of time to step up and come up with a plan.

Something impossible now as GWB&co. insist on being the sole decider's.--and maybe you should ask what happens when the international community stabilizes Iraq---how will Republicans look then?

Another part of the fine print you did not read is the Reid offer to talk and co-operate in a bi-partisan manner----which GWB&co has always snubbed in the past. So maybe you can regard this as a democratic shot across the bow to GWB&co.---and if GWB&co decides to get real--maybe some good can come out of this rather than being a lose lose trainwreck.

But like it or not non Prof John---the congress has lost patience with the head Turkey---and they can get back at Bush in countless ways. Don't count on it that GWB is going to come out looking good and congress will look bad---the dems are not as stupid as GWB&co.

And besides---you are needed on another thread---they need your assurances that the surge is working.---tell em its not so John--tell em its not so.

The international community isn't going to stabilize Iraq any more than Bush did. People in Iraq have no more interest playing lacky to the UN than they do to the US. They will simply kill each other until enough is enough, then merge into the larger area along ethnic lines. Social engineering isn't going to work with or without a gun to back it up.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Non-Prof John asks--What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

If you read the fine print---the proposed withdrawal starts in October and end by March 08---giving the internationally community plenty of time to step up and come up with a plan.

Something impossible now as GWB&co. insist on being the sole decider's.--and maybe you should ask what happens when the international community stabilizes Iraq---how will Republicans look then?

Another part of the fine print you did not read is the Reid offer to talk and co-operate in a bi-partisan manner----which GWB&co has always snubbed in the past. So maybe you can regard this as a democratic shot across the bow to GWB&co.---and if GWB&co decides to get real--maybe some good can come out of this rather than being a lose lose trainwreck.

But like it or not non Prof John---the congress has lost patience with the head Turkey---and they can get back at Bush in countless ways. Don't count on it that GWB is going to come out looking good and congress will look bad---the dems are not as stupid as GWB&co.

And besides---you are needed on another thread---they need your assurances that the surge is working.---tell em its not so John--tell em its not so.

I've thought about that. But if we leave will the UN move in and take over? They can hardly do worse than we have but haven't we messed things up to the point that we can't just replace our targ.. I mean... troops with UN personel? Believe me, I wish we could. This doesn't strike me as their cup of tea. But I have a funny feeling that the UN is going to nail us with the whole "you lied to us to go in there, we're not cleaning up YOUR mess" kind of thing.

I dunno. I've said it before.... I don't see how we can leave without a wholesale slaugher taking place. We have the tiger by the tail. We are so effed...

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Republicans will look weak because the Democrats ran for the hills?

What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

The voters put in a Democratic majority on the premise that they would push for withdrawal.

The House, the Senate, and the public are all aligned on this issue. The President is not. If they push through a withdrawal timetable, it will be a huge victory for the party and their supporters.

You can call it whatever you want; quitting, running for the hills, withdrawal, etc. The public wants it, Congress wants it.

Iraq is hell right now. People want a new approach.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
3. With the war over whatever happens in Iraq will be the fault of the Democrats and the Democrats alone. If the civilian death toll double and chaos reigns on the streets creating an instability that causes the price of oil to go up it will all be the Democrats fault.

:roll:

Wow, just wow.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Not so much to me. It is partly their fault we are there in the first place. Unfortunately, at the time, the didn't listen to their own constituents, they listen to their potential constituents.

I guess standing up to the Republicans now is better late than never, but I wish they would have had a pair before we sent 150K troops into a country that never attacked us.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

The Republicans will look weak because the Democrats ran for the hills?

What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

Not as bad as you want to believe. Because as many Americans watch the chaos from their TV's, they will at least know that their fathers, sons, daughters, etc., are home watching it with them, and not over there getting killed for nothing.

The best way to support our troops is to support bringing them home.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Iraq will explode ten seconds after we leave. Then the marketing campaign (from both sides) will begin to assign the blame. You think the world hates us now? Wait 'till after we leave.

Yup. But staying is only going to prolong the inevitable.

If Iraqi's want to kill each other, we can't prevent that, not in the long run. And if Iraqi's are going to be killed, I'd rather them be killed by Iraqi's, not by Americans.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Iraq will explode ten seconds after we leave. Then the marketing campaign (from both sides) will begin to assign the blame. You think the world hates us now? Wait 'till after we leave.

Yup. But staying is only going to prolong the inevitable.

If Iraqi's want to kill each other, we can't prevent that, not in the long run. And if Iraqi's are going to be killed, I'd rather them be killed by Iraqi's, not by Americans.

I know. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. But we have responsibility in whatever happens next. So do we leave and let the place burn or do we stick around try to control the chaos?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Iraq will explode ten seconds after we leave. Then the marketing campaign (from both sides) will begin to assign the blame. You think the world hates us now? Wait 'till after we leave.

Yup. But staying is only going to prolong the inevitable.

If Iraqi's want to kill each other, we can't prevent that, not in the long run. And if Iraqi's are going to be killed, I'd rather them be killed by Iraqi's, not by Americans.

I know. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. But we have responsibility in whatever happens next. So do we leave and let the place burn or do we stick around try to control the chaos?

How long do we stay though? I have seen nothing that tells me that if we stay long enough we can put a situation together than allows us to leave without the place turning into chaos. We can't stay forever.

We have a deep desire to want to believe that things will get better, that all we have done, and all that we have lost, simply cannot be for nothing. That is simply not the truth. We are like battered wives trying to convince ourselves that our husbands will eventualy love us.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: jpeyton
If we withdraw, the Democrats will look like the saviors of America for standing up to the Republicans, putting our troops and taxpayers first.

The Republicans will look weak.

Iraq will explode ten seconds after we leave. Then the marketing campaign (from both sides) will begin to assign the blame. You think the world hates us now? Wait 'till after we leave.

Yup. But staying is only going to prolong the inevitable.

If Iraqi's want to kill each other, we can't prevent that, not in the long run. And if Iraqi's are going to be killed, I'd rather them be killed by Iraqi's, not by Americans.

I know. It's a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. But we have responsibility in whatever happens next. So do we leave and let the place burn or do we stick around try to control the chaos?

How long do we stay though? I have seen nothing that tells me that if we stay long enough we can put a situation together than allows us to leave without the place turning into chaos. We can't stay forever.

We have a deep desire to want to believe that things will get better, that all we have done, and all that we have lost, simply cannot be for nothing. That is simply not the truth. We are like battered wives trying to convince ourselves that our husbands will eventualy love us.

That's the $640 billion question isn't it.

We're not like battered wives. Battered wives are not responsible for making their husbands hit them. In this situation we created our own hell. And in the process we also created a potential human disaster of epic proportions.

Like I said... we have a responsibility here. Can we stay there forever? I have no idea. Should we stay there forever? No. But we've created a situation that we can't just walk away from. It's like starting a camp fire in the middle of the woods and walking away from it because we're tired of watching it. We can't do that. We have to keep an eye on it until it burns out.

Of course this is the middle east and fires have a tendency to burn for centuries...

What a mess...

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

It's not hell now??? 😕

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Iraq will be the fault of the Democrats and the Democrats alone.

If the civilian death toll double and chaos reigns on the streets creating an instability that causes the price of oil to go up it will all be the Democrats fault.

This is the trueist definition of Neo-fascism

Unfortunately there is no law for Exile and does not meet criteria for for Treason either.

If these people are not stopped they will simply completely destroy the U.S.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Republicans will look weak because the Democrats ran for the hills?

What happens if Iraq goes to hell after we leave, how will the Democrats look then?

The voters put in a Democratic majority on the premise that they would push for withdrawal.

The House, the Senate, and the public are all aligned on this issue. The President is not. If they push through a withdrawal timetable, it will be a huge victory for the party and their supporters.

You can call it whatever you want; quitting, running for the hills, withdrawal, etc. The public wants it, Congress wants it.

Iraq is hell right now. People want a new approach.

I am sorry, but the Democrats did not campaign on ending the Iraq war.

I am sure a few candidates talked about withdrawing, but over all there was no big Democrat campaign promise to withdraw.
I don't think the Democrats had any overall strategy, other than saying "Bush sucks"

Go back to the late October threads and look at what we talked about. It was all about stem cells, Rush and Michael J. Fox and which guy in VA said the N word first.
And remember all us on the right asking what the Democrat plan was if they won?
There was no big push by the Democrats to make withdrawing from Iraq their main priority.

 

[BoberFett]

Do you really have to start a new Iraq thread every couple hours ProfJohn?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Do you really have to start a new Iraq thread every couple hours ProfJohn?

Thank you, please reign in your fellow Bushista buddy.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Do you really have to start a new Iraq thread every couple hours ProfJohn?

Yes, because Iraq is a defining moment (IMO) for us. It needs to be discussed at length so all who make a decision for surrender or making the current mess right will understand all the ramifications for both sides of the argument.

As for bamacre who asks how long we have to stay, anyone with any experience in CI will tell you 10, 20, even 50 years is not out of bounds. Of course, if the post war had been handled properly, we proably wouldn't have as a great a CI problem as we do today, but it still would have happened and defeating a CI takes either massive force or years of battle.