The infamous "7 minutes"

[Ilmater]

I noticed this comment on this website, which is, admittedly, out to discredit Michael Moore's new film. However, the comment is very true:

So, the woman who was there said that Bush did the right thing. The 911 commission says he did the right thing, but those who claim Bush is soaked with blood and oil know better.

Let me educate those of you who know not of what you write. Since the 1950s there has been a strict protocol on what the president and his staff is supposed to do if the country comes under attack. His first obligation is to get airborne with his closest advisors, or those who are available. Secondly, his plane is to rendezvous or at least stay in constant contact with "Looking Glass." Looking Glass is the code name for the plane that would be used to coordinate command and control of our nuclear forces. Looking Glass has since been put out to pasture as tactics and technology have changed. However, none of this can happen until escort fighters are scrambled and airborne whose mission is protection of AF1. Sarasota is just south of Tampa, where there is an Air Force base, I forget the name now. It would take at least several minutes for F16s to be manned, airborne, and in position to protect AF1. In the meantime, it would make no sense for Bush and his team to sit on the tarmac awaiting protection. If the terrorists really knew Bush's exact position, sitting in a classroom in Sarasota, then they would be able to attack regardless of where he was. If he was en-route to the airport, he would be putting commuters in danger. If he was at a McDonald's he would be putting customers in danger. Also, his security no doubt wanted to change his route to the airport, and to go to "plan B" requires escort and police to change position. Those few minutes would be needed for new placement of security. Let's say he got up and walked out of the room as you people suggest. What then? Stand in the hallway? Get on a phone? To whom? Does it make sense that the president try to call Cheney? Can you see him frantically dialing and saying "Crap, bad cell, let's go the cafeteria where maybe the signal is stronger"? His staff is supposed to do those things.

Monday morning quarterbacking is done all the time. Hell, I do it too. But to sit back and focus on 7 minutes as a national emergency unfolded is pointless. I suppose Michael Moore will next make a movie about FDR taking a dump after hearing about Pearl Harbor. I won't hold my breath. The totality of the response is what is important. Could the command, control and communication been better? Sure. But since when have a bunch of anti-military doves been the best to judge what the CiC should be doing at any given minute? No offense, but perhaps you should educate yourselves a bit more on the reality of logistics before you start claiming that "somebody do something." It's typical of those on the Left to want "somebody to do something" as evidenced by their support of gun-control as a means of "something being done" about crime. Sometimes there just isn't a hell of a lot that the CiC can do to stop a sneak attack on soft targets.

Let's just take what the school principal said, who was there, and rest on it.

If anyone isn't clear, this is referring to the 7 minutes that Bush sat in the classroom after he was told about the second plane crashing into the WTC.

I post this only because a) I'm curious if people really think that this makes Bush an idiot and b) because I'm curious to see if this changes anyone's mind.

Granted, I'm not a complete idiot. I realize 99% of those who read this won't change their mind either way. I just am so amazed that this small thing has become an issue.

 

[Steeplerot]

nice spin.
The "right" wing is really showing it's fear now.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
nice spin.
The right wing is really showing it's fear now.

Go away...nobody takes your mindless drivel seriously.

 

[Steeplerot]

Shouldn't you be jocking one of your fellow bigots?

 

[burnedout]

"Sarasota is just south of Tampa, where there is an Air Force base, I forget the name now."

MacDill AFB, CENTCOM Headquarters

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Shouldn't you be jocking one of your fellow bigots?

You call me a partisan bigot? Man talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You are so damn partisan you would chop your penis off if you woke up one morning and it was leaning to the right.

All you do is come on here and spew mindless hatred. Go away....some of us would like to have an intelligent discussion. Surely there is a 3rd grader out there somewhere that you can match wits with. At least then you might be able to hold your own for 5 or 10 minutes.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
nice spin.
The "right" wing is really showing it's fear now.

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Shouldn't you be jocking one of your fellow bigots?

Let's see what you had to say in another thread....

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Really stupid to compare hitler to bush.
Hitler was a self made man who stayed away from drink and drugs. Bush is a daddy's rich boy cokehead with a booze problem.
Hitler served his country and was wounded in line of duty. hmm where was bush?
Hitler was a great orator and could give speeches with a vigor that was legendary. W is a babbling idiot.
The genocide and starting wars for dodgy reasons is just a coincidence.

Yep....that's real non partisan and not bigoted at all.

 

[Steeplerot]

Interesting how you call me a bigot after attacking me personally.
mindless hatred?
I have yet to personally attack someone over their beliefs on AT, freedom of speech is good.
Take your pissing matches to OT if this is your thing or stick to the subject.
Why is this not the typical mindless spin for dittoheads looking for a way distract the masses from the spiderwebs of corruption
we deal with day-to-day?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Interesting how you call me a bigot after attacking me personally.
mindless hatred?
I have yet to personally attack someone over their beliefs on AT, freedom of speech is good.
Take your pissing matches to OT if this is your thing or stick to the subject.
Why is this not the typical mindless spin for dittoheads looking for a way distract the masses from the spiderwebs of corruption
we deal with day-to-day?

Hey smart guy....you're the one that brought out the bigot card. I'm just showing you for what you are. 99.99999999999999999999999999% of your posts here are the same venemous hatred over and over again.

Freedom of speech is good. That's what gives me the right to call you a hate filled buffoon.

Oh you have attacked people here. I've seen it. In fact you were given a vacation for it. Though that thread may have been in OT, can't remember since your drivel normally makes my brain go numb.

 

[Ryan]

Imagine if he had jumped up, and his whole team ran out of the building. The children would have freaked out, and bleeding heart liberals would be blasting him for scaring the children and not acting calm, and reserve in a time of crisis! Who cares about the seven minutes, they mean NOTHING. :roll:

 

[Train]

Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Shouldn't you be jocking one of your fellow bigots?

Let's see what you had to say in another thread....

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Really stupid to compare hitler to bush.
Hitler was a self made man who stayed away from drink and drugs. Bush is a daddy's rich boy cokehead with a booze problem.
Hitler served his country and was wounded in line of duty. hmm where was bush?
Hitler was a great orator and could give speeches with a vigor that was legendary. W is a babbling idiot.
The genocide and starting wars for dodgy reasons is just a coincidence.

Yep....that's real non partisan and not bigoted at all.

Got your panties in a bunch hmm?
Good.
Your ideas of blindly trusting an administration focused on their own benefit are crumbling.
Keep following the current administration into the black hole.
America is waking up and you will just be another red-faced bigot kicking your dog blaming it on
"Libs" get a clue and look around.

 

[Orsorum]

Originally posted by: Train
Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

I thought of that as well. It was my impression that the seven minutes in question were after the second plane had hit the WTC.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Interesting how you call me a bigot after attacking me personally.
mindless hatred?
I have yet to personally attack someone over their beliefs on AT, freedom of speech is good.
Take your pissing matches to OT if this is your thing or stick to the subject.
Why is this not the typical mindless spin for dittoheads looking for a way distract the masses from the spiderwebs of corruption
we deal with day-to-day?

How about you try sticking to the topic yourself. What kind of a response is "The "right" wing is really showing it's fear now."?? Why don't you explain why in the world you think Bush's pause is in any way, in and of itself, an indicator of his intelligence, or lack thereof?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: steeplerot

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Shouldn't you be jocking one of your fellow bigots?

Let's see what you had to say in another thread....

Originally posted by: steeplerot
Really stupid to compare hitler to bush.
Hitler was a self made man who stayed away from drink and drugs. Bush is a daddy's rich boy cokehead with a booze problem.
Hitler served his country and was wounded in line of duty. hmm where was bush?
Hitler was a great orator and could give speeches with a vigor that was legendary. W is a babbling idiot.
The genocide and starting wars for dodgy reasons is just a coincidence.

Yep....that's real non partisan and not bigoted at all.

Got your panties in a bunch hmm?
Good.
Your ideas of blindly trusting an administration focused on their own benefit are crumbling.
Keep following the current administration into the black hole.
America is waking up and you will just be another red-faced bigot kicking your dog blaming it on
"Libs" get a clue and look around.

Can't explain your words can you? I bet you hate it when they are used against you. Then again you should be used to that.

Anyway....isn't there a toad somewhere you should be licking?

 

[shiner]

Originally posted by: rbloedow
Imagine if he had jumped up, and his whole team ran out of the building. The children would have freaked out, and bleeding heart liberals would be blasting him for scaring the children and not acting calm, and reserve in a time of crisis! Who cares about the seven minutes, they mean NOTHING. :roll:

Exactly.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Train
Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

I thought of that as well. It was my impression that the seven minutes in question were after the second plane had hit the WTC.

You are correct, sir.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: steeplerotGot your panties in a bunch hmm?
Good.
Your ideas of blindly trusting an administration focused on their own benefit are crumbling.
Keep following the current administration into the black hole.
America is waking up and you will just be another red-faced bigot kicking your dog blaming it on
"Libs" get a clue and look around.

Please piss off. Go crap in someone else's thread. You obviously can't back your trash talk with any logical or coherent argument.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Train
Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

Just to be clear, I believe he was told about the first plane before he even sat down. The "infamous 7 minutes" started when he was told about the second plane, while reading to the kids.

Here's my take:

President Bush could easily have gotten up and left without, in the words of a prior poster, running out of the building and scaring the kids. He could have smiled, said "I'm really sorry, kids, but something's come up, and I have to be going. I've really enjoyed meeting you all, and I know you'll all succeed if you keep working hard," or words to that effect, and left.

The benefit of this would not, in re. the OP, have been one of preserving his own security, but of getting up to speed on the situation and starting to make decisions about how to proceed. I'm sure the President has secure comm in his limousine and on AF1, and in that crisis situation, 7 minutes was potentially a long time. Obviously every child in that room found out later what had happened, and I can't imagine a rapid departure by the President would have made their lives any harder on 12 Sep.

Now, that said, I am not inclined to second-guess him too much for his actions - he was put in a very challenging and novel situation and made a judgment call. I would not have made the one he did, I don't think, but I have never been in that situation, nor have any of the rest of us. I'm unaware of any evidence that those 7 minutes made any difference whatsoever in terms of what transpired.

I think the only reason this issue has any traction with the public is that there's a perception that President Bush doesn't think well on his feet, and people feel this is an example of that, as are his many malapropisms, like the old chestnut "There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. It fool me. We can't get fooled again."

 

[Steeplerot]

I can see that being told about such horrid events unfolding in NYC would be quite a shock -as it was for dare I say all of us.
The sitting there letting the little girl read (I have not seen the movie but d/led it ages ago) with a look of utter apathy shows
-to me a severe lack of leadership qualities.
I am not the pres (thankfully but I would have reacted in some way other then this.
The excuse of traffic etc. is bunk when has the pres ever cared how many streets they block off (He blocks off half the city when he comes here) for his motorcade?
I would run my ass somewhere safe dark with good communication and figure out why how and IF there are more coming.
SOMETHING some idea of leadership.
Of strength of hope for people dying and the events being carried out
hell I would be on AF-1 to NYC pulling the victims out myself as soon as the situation in the air was known to be safe.
What good does he serve as a figurehead flying around?
I dunno if your willing to send young men into battle then you better damn well be ready to be in a tank in the front as they cross that border.
But we all know how he feels about warfare HE is involved in.
AWOL as he was so many years ago for vietnam.
AWOL taking control of the country in a time of DIRE events.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: Orsorum

Originally posted by: Train
Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

I thought of that as well. It was my impression that the seven minutes in question were after the second plane had hit the WTC.

You are correct, sir.

Yes, the seven minutes are AFTER he was informed of the second building being hit.

You know, I'm not going to say I'm a genius, but I do believe that I'm intelligent, and I spent that entire day in a haze. I went to class and just stared at the walls. Any kind of pause he may have had is understandable, and justifiable, IMO.

Then add to that the fact that he would have gained nothing by leaving the classroom and you have a non-issue. I would just like to put this one issue to bed.

 

[DealMonkey]

Don vito -- nice post. I frankly don't know what to think about those 7 minutes, however if it was me, I KNOW I would have had a really hard time just sitting there in that classroom. Think about it: You're one of the few people on the planet that can do anything about this attack on our country and you're stuck in a classroom reading with some kids? Now, I'm not saying those 7 minutes could have made any difference whatsoever, I'm just saying I would have been way too antsy to just sit there. I would have left the first chance I could and gotten on the phone with SOMEBODY who could brief me on what the hell was going on... The kids and the teacher would have understood of course, after all it IS the president, sometimes pressing matters come up.

 

[Ilmater]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Train
Our hindsight is so clear....

Does everyone remember when they first heard about the 9/11 crash? Remember that before the 2nd plane struck (at which point it became obvious it was intentional) no one knew that it was a terrorist attack?

Just to be clear, I believe he was told about the first plane before he even sat down. The "infamous 7 minutes" started when he was told about the second plane, while reading to the kids.

Here's my take:

President Bush could easily have gotten up and left without, in the words of a prior poster, running out of the building and scaring the kids. He could have smiled, said "I'm really sorry, kids, but something's come up, and I have to be going. I've really enjoyed meeting you all, and I know you'll all succeed if you keep working hard," or words to that effect, and left.

The benefit of this would not, in re. the OP, have been one of preserving his own security, but of getting up to speed on the situation and starting to make decisions about how to proceed. I'm sure the President has secure comm in his limousine and on AF1, and in that crisis situation, 7 minutes was potentially a long time. Obviously every child in that room found out later what had happened, and I can't imagine a rapid departure by the President would have made their lives any harder on 12 Sep.

Now, that said, I am not inclined to second-guess him too much for his actions - he was put in a very challenging and novel situation and made a judgment call. I would not have made the one he did, I don't think, but I have never been in that situation, nor have any of the rest of us. I'm unaware of any evidence that those 7 minutes made any difference whatsoever in terms of what transpired.

I think the only reason this issue has any traction with the public is that there's a perception that President Bush doesn't think well on his feet, and people feel this is an example of that, as are his many malapropisms, like the old chestnut "There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. It fool me. We can't get fooled again."

I completely agree with you, and like you said, it may have helped, but I seriously doubt it would have had any impact at all. In fact, I doubt in light of what we now know to have transpired, that I could even be convinced that those 420 seconds made any difference.

And that last quote, yeah, that's a tough one.

 

[Steeplerot]

It is a non-issue there could very well have been reasons he sat there with his head up his ass with a idiotic look on his face.
But then I myself expect more of a l-e-a-d-e-r then what transpired.
I was shocked utterly floored when I saw what was done to building I had just been in a year or two before and admired firsthand.
But then after a few minutes I was up calling people throwing my fists into the air and asking why? how?
I happened to be pretty near to the school where he was at the time and if I knew it I would gone out there and shook his ass and yelled GET OUT THERE SHOW THE PEOPLE YOU ARE HERE FOR US DO SOMETHING... EVEN IF IT IS JUST CALMING OUR FEARS. BY LETTING US KNOW IT IS OVER AND YOU ARE SAFE AND DOING ...SOMETHING....
But we just got a blank look.
And the SS would have kicked my ass.