The Iceberg Cometh

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
The Iceberg Cometh
By PAUL KRUGMAN

January 11, 2005
NY Times

Last week someone leaked a memo written by Peter Wehner, an aide to Karl Rove, about how to sell Social Security privatization. The public, says Mr. Wehner, must be convinced that "the current system is heading for an iceberg."

It's the standard Bush administration tactic: invent a fake crisis to bully people into doing what you want. "For the first time in six decades," the memo says, "the Social Security battle is one we can win." One thing I haven't seen pointed out, however, is the extent to which the White House expects the public and the media to believe two contradictory things.

The administration expects us to believe that drastic change is needed, and needed right away, because of the looming cost of paying for the baby boomers' retirement.

The administration expects us not to notice, however, that the supposed solution would do nothing to reduce that cost. Even with the most favorable assumptions, the benefits of privatization wouldn't kick in until most of the baby boomers were long gone. For the next 45 years, privatization would cost much more money than it saved.

Advocates of privatization almost always pretend that all we have to do is borrow a bit of money up front, and then the system will become self-sustaining. The Wehner memo talks of borrowing $1 trillion to $2 trillion "to cover transition costs." Similar numbers have been widely reported in the news media.

But that's just the borrowing over the next decade. Privatization would cost an additional $3 trillion in its second decade, $5 trillion in the decade after that and another $5 trillion in the decade after that. By the time privatization started to save money, if it ever did, the federal government would have run up around $15 trillion in extra debt.

These numbers are based on a Congressional Budget Office analysis of Plan 2, which was devised by a special presidential commission in 2001 and is widely expected to be the basis for President Bush's plan.

Under Plan 2, payroll taxes would be diverted into private accounts while future benefits would be cut. In the short run, this would worsen the budget deficit. In the long run, if all went well, cutting benefit payments would reduce the deficit.

All wouldn't go well; I'll explain why in another column. But suppose that everything went according to plan. Even in that unlikely case, privatization wouldn't even begin to reduce the budget deficit until 2050. This is supposed to be the answer to an imminent crisis?

While we waited 45 years for something good to happen, there would be a real risk of a crisis - not in Social Security, but in the budget as a whole. And privatization would increase that risk.

We already have a large budget deficit, the result of President Bush's insistence on cutting taxes while waging a war. And it will get worse: a rise in spending on entitlements - mainly because of Medicare, but with a smaller contribution from Medicaid and, in a minor supporting role, Social Security - looks set to sharply increase the deficit after 2010.

Add borrowing for privatization to the mix, and the budget deficit might well exceed 8 percent of G.D.P. at some time during the next decade. That's a deficit that would make Carlos Menem's Argentina look like a model of responsibility. It would be sure to cause a collapse of investor confidence, sending the dollar through the floor, interest rates through the roof and the economy into a tailspin.

And when investors started fleeing because they believed that America had turned into a banana republic, they wouldn't be reassured by claims that someday, in the distant future, privatization would do great things for the budget. Just ask the Argentines: their version of Social Security privatization was also supposed to save money in the long run, but all it did was move forward the date of their crisis.

A responsible administration would reverse course on tax cuts and the botched 2003 Medicare drug bill, both of which pose much greater threats to the government's solvency than the modest financial shortfall of the Social Security system. But Mr. Bush has declared his tax cuts inviolable, and he says that his drug bill will actually save money. (The Medicare trustees say it will cost $8 trillion.)

There's an iceberg in front of us, all right. And Mr. Bush wants us to steam right into it, full speed ahead.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.
7trill + 15trill (additional) = 22tril = 3(7trill)

wow...basic math skills people!
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.
7trill + 15trill (additional) = 22tril = 3(7trill)

wow...basic math skills people!


Ok, I did not understand your post.

Any how, Can I borrow 22 trillion dollars? I'll pay you back in 5 minutes..;)


 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
4,466
0
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
It also depends what you mean by privitization. Some people are talking about total privitization and some people are talking about some sore of gradual privitization.

What if as a whole people just stared to refuse to pay social security and just let the old people starve?

I could see how some compromises could work better than the system they have now. I think it should be public managed and firms should fight for the right to invest blocks of citizen's money. I am in an education retirement system that is doing fine and my investment is growing (SURS).

I think a lot of people dont need to ever get social security. SS was originally designed to help those people which were the poorest of the poor. I think we need to reevaluate how it works and who is paid. If you receive an annuity, you may not even be elligible for SS.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.
Now, didn't stunt just lecture us about basic mathskills?


When I grew up 3 times 7.4 was 22.2 ;)

Anyway, What's the significance of this 7.4 trillion number?

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.
Now, didn't stunt just lecture us about basic mathskills?


When I grew up 3 times 7.4 was 22.2 ;)

Anyway, What's the significance of this 7.4 trillion number?
I started a new thread discussing this as not to talk debt in the SS thread.
Sorry GrGr
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.
Now, didn't stunt just lecture us about basic mathskills?


When I grew up 3 times 7.4 was 22.2 ;)

Anyway, What's the significance of this 7.4 trillion number?
I started a new thread discussing this as not to talk debt in the SS thread.
Sorry GrGr

What the hell are you talking about? This thread is about Icebergs.

 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.
Now, didn't stunt just lecture us about basic mathskills?


When I grew up 3 times 7.4 was 22.2 ;)

Anyway, What's the significance of this 7.4 trillion number?
I started a new thread discussing this as not to talk debt in the SS thread.
Sorry GrGr

What the hell are you talking about? This thread is about Icebergs.
I've got it...more global warming!!
That'll get rid of the pesky icebergs :)
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Originally posted by: Stunt
Wow...15tril additional debt?!...that's triple the current US debt!!

No it's not.

22 trillion actually is 3 times 7.4 trillion

it was difficult enuff for bush to figure ways to increase our natl debt 50% in 4 years. now he's to found a way to bring it up 300%

Your children shall inhereit fiscal armageddon.

They've already inherited it. Hell, WE have already inherited it, and we can thank our grandparents for it!

Get RID of Social Security and DON'T replace it with ANYTHING!

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
And of course, we have yet ANOTHER thread where some idiot who ISN'T an economist tells us not to worry, his favorite little Socialist program will continue just fine for eons to come.

Some of you might enjoy a READ of something that is ANALYTICAL instead of BIASED IMBECILE reporting: Summary of SSA 2004 Annual Reports

Public concern about the financial status of Medicare and Social Security tends to focus exclusively on the HI and OASDI Trust Fund exhaustion dates when benefits scheduled under current law can no longer be paid in full. But there are more immediate and fundamental reasons why Medicare and Social Security financing reform is needed: namely, the two programs together will place rapidly mounting draws on Federal general fund revenues long before trust fund exhaustion, and their financing in the long term is far more problematic than suggested by the 75-year actuarial deficits for HI and OASDI.

The rapidly mounting financial shortfall in these programs is illustrated in Chart E. It shows, as a percentage of GDP, the gap between annual HI and OASDI tax income and the cost of scheduled benefits, plus the 75-percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI's Part B and Part D. The initial negative amounts for OASDI in 2004 and for more than a decade thereafter represent net revenues to the Treasury that result in the issuance of Treasury bonds to the trust funds in years of annual cash flow surpluses. Conversely, the positive amounts for OASDI and HI initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the funds to supplement tax income to help pay benefits in the years leading up to exhaustion of these trust funds, then their widening financing gap thereafter.

The Social Security tax income surplus in 2004 is projected to be more than offset by the shortfall in tax and premium income for Medicare, resulting in a small overall cash shortfall that must be covered by transfers from general fund revenues. This combined shortfall is projected to grow each year--such that by 2018 net revenue flows from the general fund to the trust funds will total $577 billion, or 2.6 percent of GDP. Since neither the interest paid on the Treasury bonds held in the HI and OASDI Trust Funds, nor their redemption, provides any net new income to the Treasury, the full amount of the required Treasury payments to these trust funds must be financed by increased taxation, increased Federal borrowing and debt, and/or a reduction in other government expenditures. Thus, these payments--along with the 75- percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI--will add greatly to pressures on Federal general fund revenues much sooner than is generally appreciated.

You'll have to go to the link to get the chart, sorry. Anyway, it's plain enough from this ONE paragraph, much less the rest of the document (which you should READ!) that Socialist Security is, in fact, in trouble, and 2078 ain't the only relevant date anymore than the HI and OASDI figures are the only issues.

You wanna save money on Social Security and NOT have to borrow any or transition to a new system? OK, I'm all for that option! Let's phase out Social Security: Let those currently collecting grow old and die still on the system, and THAT'S IT--no more. Take care of your own damn retirement, like you should have been doing all along!

Jason
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
paul krugman is pwned the social security "crisis" every chance he gets.
i thought he was on vacation...
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Smooth move, DMI, lumping SS and medicare into the same barrel.

Although the SS admin administers both, they're separate programs, with separate financing... kinda like chewing gum and walking at the same time...

Too bad none of the conservatives on this board and elsewhere apply the same kind of thinking to taxes and the general fund...

SS and medicare have to pay for themselves, but corporate and farm subsidies must obviously be paid by the taxpayers, right?

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
And of course, we have yet ANOTHER thread where some idiot who ISN'T an economist tells us not to worry, his favorite little Socialist program will continue just fine for eons to come.

Some of you might enjoy a READ of something that is ANALYTICAL instead of BIASED IMBECILE reporting: Summary of SSA 2004 Annual Reports

Public concern about the financial status of Medicare and Social Security tends to focus exclusively on the HI and OASDI Trust Fund exhaustion dates when benefits scheduled under current law can no longer be paid in full. But there are more immediate and fundamental reasons why Medicare and Social Security financing reform is needed: namely, the two programs together will place rapidly mounting draws on Federal general fund revenues long before trust fund exhaustion, and their financing in the long term is far more problematic than suggested by the 75-year actuarial deficits for HI and OASDI.

The rapidly mounting financial shortfall in these programs is illustrated in Chart E. It shows, as a percentage of GDP, the gap between annual HI and OASDI tax income and the cost of scheduled benefits, plus the 75-percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI's Part B and Part D. The initial negative amounts for OASDI in 2004 and for more than a decade thereafter represent net revenues to the Treasury that result in the issuance of Treasury bonds to the trust funds in years of annual cash flow surpluses. Conversely, the positive amounts for OASDI and HI initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the funds to supplement tax income to help pay benefits in the years leading up to exhaustion of these trust funds, then their widening financing gap thereafter.

The Social Security tax income surplus in 2004 is projected to be more than offset by the shortfall in tax and premium income for Medicare, resulting in a small overall cash shortfall that must be covered by transfers from general fund revenues. This combined shortfall is projected to grow each year--such that by 2018 net revenue flows from the general fund to the trust funds will total $577 billion, or 2.6 percent of GDP. Since neither the interest paid on the Treasury bonds held in the HI and OASDI Trust Funds, nor their redemption, provides any net new income to the Treasury, the full amount of the required Treasury payments to these trust funds must be financed by increased taxation, increased Federal borrowing and debt, and/or a reduction in other government expenditures. Thus, these payments--along with the 75- percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI--will add greatly to pressures on Federal general fund revenues much sooner than is generally appreciated.

You'll have to go to the link to get the chart, sorry. Anyway, it's plain enough from this ONE paragraph, much less the rest of the document (which you should READ!) that Socialist Security is, in fact, in trouble, and 2078 ain't the only relevant date anymore than the HI and OASDI figures are the only issues.

You wanna save money on Social Security and NOT have to borrow any or transition to a new system? OK, I'm all for that option! Let's phase out Social Security: Let those currently collecting grow old and die still on the system, and THAT'S IT--no more. Take care of your own damn retirement, like you should have been doing all along!

Jason

Paul Krugman is a PHD economist if I recall. Also, social security is not a retirement fund, nor was it meant to be. it is INSURANCE.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
The more I pay attention to this Social Security "crisis" the more I realize that we have plenty of time to fix it, but rather the rush is more of a stragery move by Bush. The GOP wants to own the SS issue and have the elderly beholden to them rather than the Democrats. So the rush to "fix" SS isn't so much motivated by a genuine concern for a system that will eventually have problems (far) down the line, rather it's pure politics.

And that just stinks.

Then again, I haven't seen any definitive information on what the Bush plan is exactly so I'll reserve final judgement until I've seen it.

Anyone know when the unveiling will be? I'd rather discuss specifics instead of generalizations...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
And of course, we have yet ANOTHER thread where some idiot who ISN'T an economist tells us not to worry, his favorite little Socialist program will continue just fine for eons to come.

Some of you might enjoy a READ of something that is ANALYTICAL instead of BIASED IMBECILE reporting: Summary of SSA 2004 Annual Reports

Public concern about the financial status of Medicare and Social Security tends to focus exclusively on the HI and OASDI Trust Fund exhaustion dates when benefits scheduled under current law can no longer be paid in full. But there are more immediate and fundamental reasons why Medicare and Social Security financing reform is needed: namely, the two programs together will place rapidly mounting draws on Federal general fund revenues long before trust fund exhaustion, and their financing in the long term is far more problematic than suggested by the 75-year actuarial deficits for HI and OASDI.

The rapidly mounting financial shortfall in these programs is illustrated in Chart E. It shows, as a percentage of GDP, the gap between annual HI and OASDI tax income and the cost of scheduled benefits, plus the 75-percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI's Part B and Part D. The initial negative amounts for OASDI in 2004 and for more than a decade thereafter represent net revenues to the Treasury that result in the issuance of Treasury bonds to the trust funds in years of annual cash flow surpluses. Conversely, the positive amounts for OASDI and HI initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the funds to supplement tax income to help pay benefits in the years leading up to exhaustion of these trust funds, then their widening financing gap thereafter.

The Social Security tax income surplus in 2004 is projected to be more than offset by the shortfall in tax and premium income for Medicare, resulting in a small overall cash shortfall that must be covered by transfers from general fund revenues. This combined shortfall is projected to grow each year--such that by 2018 net revenue flows from the general fund to the trust funds will total $577 billion, or 2.6 percent of GDP. Since neither the interest paid on the Treasury bonds held in the HI and OASDI Trust Funds, nor their redemption, provides any net new income to the Treasury, the full amount of the required Treasury payments to these trust funds must be financed by increased taxation, increased Federal borrowing and debt, and/or a reduction in other government expenditures. Thus, these payments--along with the 75- percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI--will add greatly to pressures on Federal general fund revenues much sooner than is generally appreciated.

You'll have to go to the link to get the chart, sorry. Anyway, it's plain enough from this ONE paragraph, much less the rest of the document (which you should READ!) that Socialist Security is, in fact, in trouble, and 2078 ain't the only relevant date anymore than the HI and OASDI figures are the only issues.

You wanna save money on Social Security and NOT have to borrow any or transition to a new system? OK, I'm all for that option! Let's phase out Social Security: Let those currently collecting grow old and die still on the system, and THAT'S IT--no more. Take care of your own damn retirement, like you should have been doing all along!

Jason

Paul Krugman is a PHD economist if I recall. Also, social security is not a retirement fund, nor was it meant to be. it is INSURANCE.


He is also a partisan hack.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Partisan Hack, CsG?

After the attack you and others mounted against BBond in another recent SS thread, all I can say is you've got a lot of nerve...

Left a lot of unanswered questions behind, too... like how the basic math of any privatization scheme just doesn't add up...
 

Veramocor

Senior member
Mar 2, 2004
389
1
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
And of course, we have yet ANOTHER thread where some idiot who ISN'T an economist tells us not to worry, his favorite little Socialist program will continue just fine for eons to come.

Some of you might enjoy a READ of something that is ANALYTICAL instead of BIASED IMBECILE reporting: Summary of SSA 2004 Annual Reports


Pual Krugman is an economist.


Edit: Asked and anwsered in earlier post.
 

PatboyX

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2001
7,024
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
And of course, we have yet ANOTHER thread where some idiot who ISN'T an economist tells us not to worry, his favorite little Socialist program will continue just fine for eons to come.

Some of you might enjoy a READ of something that is ANALYTICAL instead of BIASED IMBECILE reporting: Summary of SSA 2004 Annual Reports

Public concern about the financial status of Medicare and Social Security tends to focus exclusively on the HI and OASDI Trust Fund exhaustion dates when benefits scheduled under current law can no longer be paid in full. But there are more immediate and fundamental reasons why Medicare and Social Security financing reform is needed: namely, the two programs together will place rapidly mounting draws on Federal general fund revenues long before trust fund exhaustion, and their financing in the long term is far more problematic than suggested by the 75-year actuarial deficits for HI and OASDI.

The rapidly mounting financial shortfall in these programs is illustrated in Chart E. It shows, as a percentage of GDP, the gap between annual HI and OASDI tax income and the cost of scheduled benefits, plus the 75-percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI's Part B and Part D. The initial negative amounts for OASDI in 2004 and for more than a decade thereafter represent net revenues to the Treasury that result in the issuance of Treasury bonds to the trust funds in years of annual cash flow surpluses. Conversely, the positive amounts for OASDI and HI initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the funds to supplement tax income to help pay benefits in the years leading up to exhaustion of these trust funds, then their widening financing gap thereafter.

The Social Security tax income surplus in 2004 is projected to be more than offset by the shortfall in tax and premium income for Medicare, resulting in a small overall cash shortfall that must be covered by transfers from general fund revenues. This combined shortfall is projected to grow each year--such that by 2018 net revenue flows from the general fund to the trust funds will total $577 billion, or 2.6 percent of GDP. Since neither the interest paid on the Treasury bonds held in the HI and OASDI Trust Funds, nor their redemption, provides any net new income to the Treasury, the full amount of the required Treasury payments to these trust funds must be financed by increased taxation, increased Federal borrowing and debt, and/or a reduction in other government expenditures. Thus, these payments--along with the 75- percent general fund revenue contributions to SMI--will add greatly to pressures on Federal general fund revenues much sooner than is generally appreciated.

You'll have to go to the link to get the chart, sorry. Anyway, it's plain enough from this ONE paragraph, much less the rest of the document (which you should READ!) that Socialist Security is, in fact, in trouble, and 2078 ain't the only relevant date anymore than the HI and OASDI figures are the only issues.

You wanna save money on Social Security and NOT have to borrow any or transition to a new system? OK, I'm all for that option! Let's phase out Social Security: Let those currently collecting grow old and die still on the system, and THAT'S IT--no more. Take care of your own damn retirement, like you should have been doing all along!

Jason

Paul Krugman is a PHD economist if I recall. Also, social security is not a retirement fund, nor was it meant to be. it is INSURANCE.


He is also a partisan hack.

partison?
perhaps...in the sense that he is pro stable economy.
hack?
no. he is not a hack. maybe its a nice phrase to toss around...but he can write anyone on this board a new asshole. he knows what he is talking about and he is adept at putting forth his OPINION about the economic structure of the country (which he knows a thing or two about)

but krugman is making a very rational and cool commentary in most of his peices as of late: think before moving to fix this crisis, it doesnt need the overhaul the administration suggests it does.
thats hardly the sort of shrill, whiney liberal rhetoic that he is so often accused of by folks like o'reilly (who has a personal vendetta against him)


also: i dont think CsG is in this thread...but someone responded to him...just an FYI
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
You're right about CsG, patboyX- my apologies to him for mistaking charrison's hack for one of his own, and for having accused charrison of participation in the rather shameful display I referenced...
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Partisan Hack, CsG?

After the attack you and others mounted against BBond in another recent SS thread, all I can say is you've got a lot of nerve...

Left a lot of unanswered questions behind, too... like how the basic math of any privatization scheme just doesn't add up...



Yes krugman has earned the reputation of being a partisan hack.

Dont worry, the math does not add up on SS, but that does not stop krugman from defending it.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Has Bush ever started a private company ( that did not get taxpayer money) which did not go bankrupt?
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Has Bush ever started a private company ( that did not get taxpayer money) which did not go bankrupt?



talk about a thread hijack attempt.