The High Price of English 101

WildHorse

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2003
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This thread is a substitute for another thread here. This one makes the same point as the other one, and references a better source.

I would have replaced the other thread with this one but too late because others already responded to that one so I'll leave it.

Source

[If you only read a bit of this, then please read the last 2 paragraphs.]

By Randy Alcorn, Montecito Journal
May 10, 2007

A recently released report by the State of California?s Legislative Analyst?s Office, or LAO, reveals the high cost and dubious effectiveness of the state?s efforts to educate massive numbers of non-English speaking students. The report, presented to the California State Assembly?s Budget Subcommittee on Education Finance, exposes some stark facts about the effect of massive foreign immigration on the State?s education system.

Of California?s 6.4 million kindergarten through 12 public school students, one out of four does not speak English or speaks it too inadequately to be educated in it. Of this number, 85% are Spanish speaking and from economically disadvantaged households. Additionally, one out of nine of these students requires special education programs.

The cost of public education in California already commands over 42% of the state?s $140 plus billion annual budget. No other single government service absorbs more tax dollars than does public education. Educating children of foreign immigrants adds to this burgeoning cost by substantially increasing school enrollments. Using the LAO?s data, that increase is 25%. The state?s K-12 education budget for 2007-08 proposes spending $11,584 per student, so the cost of that 25% increase in enrollment is $18.5 billion.

Moreover, the cost of public education is further inflated by adding special programs designed to accommodate non-English speaking students. Such programs have added more than $1.3 billion to the state?s education budget. And, while state politicians have optimistically named these programs ?English Learners,? or EL, programs, these programs have not yielded results equivalent to the optimism that name implies. If learning English is the goal of these pricey programs, that goal has been an elusive one. Each year, only 8% to 10% of the 1.6 million students enrolled in the EL programs become proficiently fluent in English. At best, then, a success rate of one out of 10 means each year California taxpayers are paying $8,300 per student who successfully learns English.

The LAO?s investigation of individual EL students? proficiency tests found that the students? progress in learning English was very slow. By the time they reached tenth grade, only 40% of EL students could pass the English language portion of the California High School Exit Exam.

The performance measure was even more dismal on California?s Standardized Testing and Reporting Exam (STAR). The results of the 2005 STAR exam for third-graders showed that only 15% of EL students were proficient in the English Language Arts portion of the test compared to 47% of non-EL students who were. The results for tenth-graders were even less encouraging; not even 5% of EL students tested proficient in English compared to 43% of non-EL students who did.

Based on the findings of the LAO report, spending well beyond $1 billion per year to teach the children of foreign immigrants enough English to educate them in English has, so far, been an exorbitant exercise in futility. Nevertheless, the authors of the report recommend spending another $50.5 million on one-time remedial programs aimed at correcting the deficiencies of the failing EL programs, and warn that more money will be needed as the population of non-English speaking immigrants increases.

It seems that the wasteful optimism of politicians and government bureaucrats is limited only by the amount of taxes that can be extracted from the public.

As a practical matter, educating massive numbers of foreign immigrants is inherently difficult, especially when the flow of such immigration is unrelenting. Educating Hispanic immigrants has been particularly problematic because they are often migratory, are less inclined to assimilate to American culture, and many of them do not place a high value on education. Spanish-speaking students, whose dedication to education is lukewarm and whose cultural affinity clings to that of their native land, are far less likely to successfully learn English despite the hundreds of millions of dollars California taxpayers expend in the effort.

The fact that over recent decades both the private and public sectors of California have established a de facto bilingual state only diminishes the incentive for Spanish speaking immigrants to learn English. Since they are being accommodated in Spanish throughout society, there is less urgency to learn English. Ironically, in California, there may be more English speakers learning Spanish than Spanish speakers learning English.

Those who argue that illegal immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out of it fail to consider the equation beyond immediate, personal, micro-economic benefits. While prices of some goods and services are lower because economically desperate, illegal immigrants will work for far lower wages than did the workers that they replaced, at the macro-economic level taxpayers are subsidizing this artificially cheap labor. Not only education, but also law enforcement, criminal justice, health services, insurance costs and other social services are adversely impacted by massive foreign immigration.

The macro-economic costs of massive foreign immigration are often downplayed or ignored. And, in gigantic, complex government budgets these costs, in effect, can be concealed. The LAO report on the English Learners programs has exposed just one of the many costs of massive foreign immigration found throughout the economy.
 

Madwand1

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2006
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While this may be interesting, IMO the English public education in NA has been dismal even without foreign nationals to blame for the problem.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
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What an awesome counterpoint: we'll just ask them how much more they are breaking the law, or how much of a good "citizens" they are by paying taxes -- people never lie about that kind of stuff, right?

Give me a break.

If I were illegally here you'd bet your ass I would avoid paying taxes as much as I can, and if I had to, then I would keep it to a minimum; also, I'd be taking advantage of any Gov. welfare program, whether because they don't weed out the illegals, or because they have lax checks.

Knowing full well I get deported if the INS finally catches me, why would I want to pay taxes or not take advantage of services?
Why would I want to pay taxes to a country that isn't mine?

In any case, I can't blame them for that kind of mentality, as they are second class "citizens" who are being taken advantage of, so they also need to maximze their income.

In any case, then public system is burdened enogh with other stuff than having to make sure students speak English -- that should be a given in the USA.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,063
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Originally posted by: dna
What an awesome counterpoint: we'll just ask them how much more they are breaking the law, or how much of a good "citizens" they are by paying taxes -- people never lie about that kind of stuff, right?

Give me a break.

If I were illegally here you'd bet your ass I would avoid paying taxes as much as I can, and if I had to, then I would keep it to a minimum; also, I'd be taking advantage of any Gov. welfare program, whether because they don't weed out the illegals, or because they have lax checks.

Knowing full well I get deported if the INS finally catches me, why would I want to pay taxes or not take advantage of services?
Why would I want to pay taxes to a country that isn't mine?

In any case, I can't blame them for that kind of mentality, as they are second class "citizens" who are being taken advantage of, so they also need to maximze their income.

In any case, then public system is burdened enogh with other stuff than having to make sure students speak English -- that should be a given in the USA.

Ugh, you're only showing your ignorance here.

They aren't filing taxes, they are having them withheld by their employers. So the illegals aren't 'paying' anything themselves, they don't have a choice. Do you doubt that the large scale employers that tend to use illegal immigrants withhold federal payroll taxes? Do you really think they want to draw attention to who they are hiring? Think this through for a minute and you will see why a large number of illegal immigrants contribute taxes whether its their idea or not, and no matter if they like it or not.

If you read some on the subject you would realize that the reason why more illegals don't use public services is exactly because they fear drawing attention to themselves and getting deported.

You apparently did not understand what the author of that piece was saying. This tends to be the problem with most illegal immigration debates on here I've noticed. It's hard to argue points against people that have so little knowledge of how this system is currently working, and so you have to argue against hearsay, misinformation, and flat out ignorance that is somehow treated as equally valid as research on the subject.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
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Gee, you don't say: they have taxes withheld because they have no choice, otherwise they would keep all of it -- exactly what I said.

Even if some money is withheld, there are always schemes where they pay a minimum amount on the books, while the rest goes off the books.

As for public services, it all depends on the vigilance of the social services, and given that some cities even have laws barring Police to communicate with INS, it wouldn't be surprising if social services apply the same principal -- especially when the ACLU and PCs like you would be breathing down their neck.
 

Rio Rebel

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: dna
Gee, you don't say: they have taxes withheld because they have no choice, otherwise they would keep all of it -- exactly what I said.

Even if some money is withheld, there are always schemes where they pay a minimum amount on the books, while the rest goes off the books.

As for public services, it all depends on the vigilance of the social services, and given that some cities even have laws barring Police to communicate with INS, it wouldn't be surprising if social services apply the same principal -- especially when the ACLU and PCs like you would be breathing down their neck.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just spouting off on what you assume goes on.

I'm sure many illegal aliens are paid under the table. But have known quite a few, and all of them worked for legitimate businesses with a fake social security number, and they had taxes withheld which they couldn't get back. In every case I know, they actually paid MORE taxes because they could legitimately file a tax return.

Like I said, I'm sure this doesn't represent everyone. But these cases aren't even considered when people rant about illegal aliens "not paying taxes".

By the way, you don't happen to know any legal Americans who are dishonest on their taxes, do you? Isn't that whole argument just a bit hypocritical?
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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I see a lot of hand waving from the anti-illegal immigration folks, but what I don't see is whether or not they are a net positive on the economy. And that's important, ranting and raving about the costs is stupid...EVERYTHING has costs, but it also has benefits, and if you don't know if the benefits outweigh the costs, I don't see how an argument is being made.
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,834
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
I see a lot of hand waving from the anti-illegal immigration folks, but what I don't see is whether or not they are a net positive on the economy. And that's important, ranting and raving about the costs is stupid...EVERYTHING has costs, but it also has benefits, and if you don't know if the benefits outweigh the costs, I don't see how an argument is being made.

It's illegal, it doesn't matter if they have a net positive on the economy or not. They come here illegally and the effect is to lower the wages/benifits for a the segment of the economy that can least afford it.

That's the way I see it anyway.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,894
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www.alienbabeltech.com
There are towns all over the U.S. converting to Spanish only inclusing all hispanic council members and mayors etc.

I posted yesterday how Dodge City Kansas is now converted and controlled.

There is no stopping this train.

Either you get onboard or run over.

My wife will tell you I have been buying everything in espanol.

Our food on the spanish isle at walmart, any DVD's we may get etc.

She is not thrilled to be converted but she understands she must learn spanish to survive in the U.S. now.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,063
48,073
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Originally posted by: dna
Gee, you don't say: they have taxes withheld because they have no choice, otherwise they would keep all of it -- exactly what I said.

Even if some money is withheld, there are always schemes where they pay a minimum amount on the books, while the rest goes off the books.

As for public services, it all depends on the vigilance of the social services, and given that some cities even have laws barring Police to communicate with INS, it wouldn't be surprising if social services apply the same principal -- especially when the ACLU and PCs like you would be breathing down their neck.

So you were trying to tell me that people don't pay taxes unless they have to? Thanks for the news flash. That means your previous posting was even more pointless then I had thought though, because in the end it really doesn't matter why they are paying taxes... it just matters that they are. As Rio said, they in fact pay significantly more in taxes then your average American making what they do, because they can't file a tax return to get a refund.

You are also making my previous post more and more true. I mention how the system currently works for a large percentage of illegal immigrants, and you mention nebulous 'schemes' that they must be participating in. I mention data showing a low use of public services by illegal immigrants derived from a 20+ year project run by a Princeton professor, you mention "urgh, it all depends, I don't think they do!". Can you see why arguing with this sort of logic is pointless?
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
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Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Originally posted by: dna
Gee, you don't say: they have taxes withheld because they have no choice, otherwise they would keep all of it -- exactly what I said.

Even if some money is withheld, there are always schemes where they pay a minimum amount on the books, while the rest goes off the books.

As for public services, it all depends on the vigilance of the social services, and given that some cities even have laws barring Police to communicate with INS, it wouldn't be surprising if social services apply the same principal -- especially when the ACLU and PCs like you would be breathing down their neck.

You have no idea what you're talking about. You're just spouting off on what you assume goes on.

I'm sure many illegal aliens are paid under the table. But have known quite a few, and all of them worked for legitimate businesses with a fake social security number, and they had taxes withheld which they couldn't get back. In every case I know, they actually paid MORE taxes because they could legitimately file a tax return.

Like I said, I'm sure this doesn't represent everyone. But these cases aren't even considered when people rant about illegal aliens "not paying taxes".

By the way, you don't happen to know any legal Americans who are dishonest on their taxes, do you? Isn't that whole argument just a bit hypocritical?


Care to guess where that fake social security number came from? Another side benefit to Americans too?








Hispanic American police detective get screwed by illegal immigrant



Theft of identity compounds the crime

Because more employers are checking workers' IDs, illegal immigrants are increasingly using stolen Social Security numbers to get jobs.

By Anna Gorman
Times Staff Writer

July 9, 2007

Adrian Flores was working the identity theft beat as a police detective in Los Angeles County when he realized that he too had become a victim.

First, he answered a phone call about an outstanding bill for furniture store purchases that he hadn't made. Then he received several letters from the Internal Revenue Service, including one demanding $40,000 in back taxes on income he hadn't earned. When he ran his credit, the report showed he owed money at a hospital where he had never been treated.

Flores later learned that at least one of the culprits was an illegal immigrant working in Utah for Swift & Co. meat processing that had been one of the targets of a massive raid by federal immigration agents, who arrested 1,274 people in six states in December 2006.

"It rocks your world," he said. "It's like a little ball of string. It gets thicker and thicker and thicker as it goes along."

Under pressure from federal authorities to verify their workers' legal status, more employers are checking the validity of Social Security numbers, and that has caused many illegal immigrants to use stolen rather than made-up numbers to get jobs, immigration officials said.

"It used to be that we would only see people come in with purely bogus documents," said Julie L. Myers, assistant secretary for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. "More and more we are seeing real people, real victims."

Although the agency does not break out identity theft statistics, Myers said, "we are definitely seeing a trend."

To better protect their businesses, more employers are using the Department of Homeland Security's Basic Pilot program, which enables them to check the validity of Social Security numbers online. But Basic Pilot doesn't detect identity theft. As long as the name and Social Security number are legitimate, the online system will indicate the person using them is authorized to work.

Word of this weakness in the system has spread quickly among illegal immigrants and the document theft rings that cater to them. Thieves will dig through trash cans or scan the Internet looking for Social Security numbers. Sometimes, criminals or homeless people are willing to sell their identity documents, Myers said. There also have been cases in which employers provide their workers with stolen numbers, Homeland Security authorities said.

The majority of immigrants using fake identification don't know that the Social Security numbers belong to real people, said Marielena Hincapié of the National Immigration Law Center in Los Angeles. They are just trying to find a way to get a job, she said.

"Most workers are buying documents they believe to be false," she said. "There isn't really any intention of stealing someone's identity."

Yet there are victims.



"Identity theft, whether it is by someone who is here illegally or legally, it is still the same craziness," said Linda Foley, founder of the San Diego-based Identity Theft Resource Center. "It temporarily turns their life upside down."

Foley said she has seen one person's identity used by as many as 20 people. Often, even if the government may be aware of the problem, the victim won't discover that his identity was stolen until he receives a demand for back taxes or when he tries to buy a house or a car and realizes his credit has been destroyed.

"There is no automatic red flag to notify victims," said Betsy Broder, an assistant director at the Federal Trade Commission.

This spring, at the direction of President Bush, the FTC and Atty. Gen. Alberto R. Gonzales issued a report on identity theft in general and a strategic plan to attack it. The voluminous report singled out the issue of immigrant-related identity theft and recommended an increase in prosecutions.

ICE launched 11 task forces last year and six this spring targeting immigrant-related ID fraud. More than 540 investigations have been opened, and so far 243 people have been convicted of various fraud and immigration violations since April 2006.

The largest identity theft bust was the one last year at the Swift plants; it followed a 10-month investigation triggered by allegations that illegal immigrants were using the stolen identities of U.S. citizens. More than 300 illegal immigrants were prosecuted as a result of the investigation.

There have also been smaller cases, including the indictment last month of 10 former workers at Fresh Del Monte Produce in Portland, Ore., on charges of possession of a fraudulent immigration document or Social Security fraud. According to ICE, an investigation in that case showed that dozens of employees at American Staffing Resources Inc., which hires workers for the fruit and vegetable processing plant, were using Social Security numbers that belonged to real people. Some of the victims were children; others were elderly and receiving benefits. Some of the numbers had belonged to people who had died.

"The task force approach was really the first concentrated, nationwide effort to attack the problem," said Myers, the ICE official.

Anti-illegal immigrant groups criticized the federal government, however, saying that the recent actions do not go far enough and that millions of illegal immigrants using other people's documents are ignored. They also say the government should create a secure identification card.

"There is no will in this administration to enforce the law," said Rosemary Jenks, director of governmental relations for Numbers USA, an anti-illegal immigration group. "Every person who is working illegally has committed a crime because they have either used fake documents, stolen documents or they have made their own."

Doris Meissner, former commissioner of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, said that task forces and raids won't end identity theft by illegal immigrants. Identity theft is a very dangerous trend, she said, but "it is not ultimately going to be solved by more and more ICE law enforcement actions." Immigrants will continue to find documents that will enable them to find work.

"The jobs are there, and there is no legal way for the economic demands to be met at the present time," said Meissner, a senior fellow at the Migration Policy Institute, a think tank based in Washington, D.C.

When Flores, the police officer, started investigating his own identity theft, documents incorrectly showed that he had lived in Utah, Colorado, Florida and Virginia and that he had worked at the Swift plant and a fitness center. A retirement account had been set up at Merrill Lynch in New York. His mother's maiden name on his Social Security file had been changed at an office in Montebello.

Flores, 42, didn't lose any money, but his damaged credit prevented him from buying a house. And the process to clear his name was long and difficult. Flores made numerous calls and sent letters, identification theft police reports and documents to various governmental agencies. The IRS threatened to send his case to collections and told him he would have to fight it in Tax Court. The Social Security administration refused to give him a new number.

"It was more scary than frustrating," he said. "It's the federal government. You know they are going to put a lien on something, like my bank account. I don't make that much money and I had a family to support."

Flores said he is now very careful not to give out too much information to anyone and to watch his back when doing financial transactions.

"You have to constantly be on top of it," he said, "or it can get out of hand."


LINK



 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
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Audra Schmierer's Social Security number really gets around. It has been used by at least 81 people in 17 states, most of them probably illegal immigrants trying to get work.

The federal government took years to discover the number was being used illegally, but authorities took little action even then.

"They knew what was happening but wouldn't do anything," said Schmierer, 33, a housewife in this affluent San Francisco suburb. "One name, one number, why can't they just match it up?"

Her case is an example of an increasingly common problem: Many thieves are able to steal personal information because employers do not have to verify Social Security numbers or other documents submitted by job seekers.

The situation has long drawn fire from anti-illegal immigration groups, but Congress has only recently moved to fix it. Both the House and Senate have passed immigration-reform bills that call for employers to verify Social Security numbers in a national database.

Homeland Security officials have taken it a step further, calling on Congress to allow the Social Security Administration to share information with immigration-enforcement agents at work sites.

Under current law, if the Social Security Administration or the Internal Revenue Service find multiple people using the same Social Security number, the agencies send letters informing employers of possible errors.

The IRS can fine employers $50 for each inaccurate number filed, a punishment that companies often dismiss as just another cost of doing business.

"Sending letters is the limit to what can be done," Social Security spokesman Lowell Kepke said. "We expect that will be able to fix any records that are incorrect."

The information on mismatched names is seldom shared with law enforcement agencies.

Schmierer realized she had a problem in February 2005, when she got a statement from the IRS saying she owed $15,813 in back taxes _ even though she had not worked since her son was born in 2000.

Perhaps even more surprising, the taxes were due from jobs in Texas.

Schmierer called the IRS and learned that numerous people were using her Social Security number. Officials said the erroneous balances would be eliminated, but the agency would have to correct the problem again in future years.

"They told me they couldn't do anything else," Schmierer said.

IRS officials declined to talk about Schmierer's case, citing privacy laws.

Schmierer has done a little investigating of her own, combing through tax bills sent to her for names and locations of employers who hired people using her number.

She has also obtained more than 200 W-2 and 1099 tax forms that contained her Social Security number but different names. Schmierer provided copies of the records to The Associated Press.

People used her Social Security number from Florida to Washington state, at construction sites, fast-food restaurants and even major high-tech companies. Some opened bank accounts using the number.

Most of the people worked multiple jobs in the same year, though some remained at the same company for several years. The top wage earner made $39,465, but most reported income of less than $15,000.

Though impossible to verify in every case, information gleaned from criminal investigations, tax documents and other sources suggested that most of the users were probably illegal immigrants.

Schmierer filed a police report after learning one man had used her information in 2003 at janitorial and landscaping companies near Haltom City, Texas.

Investigators found the man, who told officers he had bought a fake Social Security card at a flea market, according to a police report. He was not arrested.

Schmierer tracked down other people, finding that her number had been used to get work but not to access her credit card or bank accounts.

What started as a hassle turned into a major headache earlier this year when she sought work through a temporary agency that learned her Social Security number had been used by a woman in Texas two years earlier. The agency could not hire Schmierer for more than a month while the situation was clarified.

"How do you prove that you are you?" Schmierer said. "It's like you are guilty until proven innocent."

While returning from a trip to Mexico with her husband last year, Schmierer was detained for four hours in a Dallas airport by immigration officials. The reason: a woman using her Social Security number was wanted for a felony.

Schmierer never determined how her number became so widely used. Sellers of fake documents often make up numbers and use them repeatedly.

Schmierer's number became so compromised that Social Security officials finally took a rare step used only in extreme cases: They gave her a new one.

Schmierer hopes that will end her frustrations, but she suspects her old number will continue to be misused.

"It's clear to me that because my number has been used for so long, it's not going to stop," she said.

LINK
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Those who argue that illegal immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out of it fail to consider the equation beyond immediate, personal, micro-economic benefits. While prices of some goods and services are lower because economically desperate, illegal immigrants will work for far lower wages than did the workers that they replaced, at the macro-economic level taxpayers are subsidizing this artificially cheap labor. Not only education, but also law enforcement, criminal justice, health services, insurance costs and other social services are adversely impacted by massive foreign immigration.
I have been saying this for a long time. Most people are too stupid to get it, though. If we want cheap goods do we a) import them or b) import the people who make them? Obviously the answer is a) since we want a cheap good, not a cheap good producer. This is why it makes sense to buy cheap products from China and pay shipping, not import the Chinese here and have them make it locally.
 

imported_dna

Golden Member
Aug 14, 2006
1,755
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Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
Like I said, I'm sure this doesn't represent everyone. But these cases aren't even considered when people rant about illegal aliens "not paying taxes".
I'm happy for you that you met "quite a few", but the question is how many are paying enough taxes to cover their use of the system, as well as the fact that they are bankrolling a whole identity theft apparatus that may cause damages that are even harder to quanitfy.

By the way, you don't happen to know any legal Americans who are dishonest on their taxes, do you? Isn't that whole argument just a bit hypocritical?
Gee, what a splendid counter argument -- let's let all the illegal criminals go because we still didn't deal with the citizens.

I'm calling Corzine right now!

Originally posted by: eskimospy
I mention data showing a low use of public services by illegal immigrants derived from a 20+ year project run by a Princeton professor, you mention "urgh, it all depends, I don't think they do!". Can you see why arguing with this sort of logic is pointless?
So the guy asked a few people a couple of questions for twenty years -- too bad that they were quite likely to be defensive and lie, sort of like asking people about their sex life.

BTW, was I supposed to be impressed that he is from Princeton?