the HDCP faq thread

[davet11]

I'm guessing that some people might be confused by the HDCP issue that seems to be pressing itself into areas of current video discussion. I'll post some stuff that I have discovered about it (which isn't much) as well as some questions that I have regarding the whole wacky (read: idiotic) idea of HDCP:

Short for high-bandwidth digital-content protection, a specification developed by Intel for protecting digital entertainment content that uses the DVI interface. HDCP encrypts the transmission of digital content between the video source, or transmitter -- such as a computer, DVD player or set-top box -- and the digital display, or receiver -- such as a monitor, television or projector. HDCP is not designed to prevent copying or recording of digital content but to protect the integrity of content as it is being transmitted.

- basically to me it sounds like a hardware-integrated anti-copy measure

as stated here:

HDCP (high definition content protection) is a standard that is encoded into the video signal to prevent it from being pirated. If a source device is HDCP coded and is connected to a HDTV display or projector without the proper HDCP decoding mechanism, the picture is relegated to ?snow? or in some cases, very low (480P) resolutions of the images. In order to see HDTV with HDCP compliance, both the source and display devices must be equipped with DVI connections that can enable HDCP decoding, such as the 2x1 HDTV Switcher.

What products currently support this?

as far as I know, the Samsung 244t is on the fence (nobody seems to provide a solid answer about this), the Dell 3007wfp is HDCP compliant and the future 2407fpw is reported to be HDCP compliant.

My questions

Would buying a non-HDCP device at the moment be like throwing money away if somebody is concerned with media capabilities? Or is it a technology that like HDtv will take several years to become anything near mainstream, and therefore buying something non-HDCP compliant now would still last quite some time? (I'm thinking about things like the VHS -> DVD change. VHS was still used for quite some time and it took years for the technology to be largely phased out).

Will there be any kind of "mid-line" solution that would make say, a 2405fpw HDCP compliant?

What do you think of the whole HDCP thing?

 

[M0RPH]

There's some info on it here: Text

I'm going the safe route. I'm not buying any LCD monitors or TVs until they have HDCP support.

 

[davet11]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
There's some info on it here: Text

I'm going the safe route. I'm not buying any LCD monitors or TVs until they have HDCP support.

It doesn't really answer a certain question though: will there be the possibility of an after market solution that could be used to view HDCP compliant content on non-HDCP compliant devices. I'm sure like most people, it seems absolutely crazy to me that they are expecting everybody to upgrade all of their televisions and monitors in order to view new content.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: davet11
It doesn't really answer a certain question though: will there be the possibility of an after market solution that could be used to view HDCP compliant content on non-HDCP compliant devices. I'm sure like most people, it seems absolutely crazy to me that they are expecting everybody to upgrade all of their televisions and monitors in order to view new content.

No, such a device doesn't make sense. The whole point of HDCP is to protect the entire pathway to the screen itself (eg, the entire input-output pathway). An aftermarket device like the one you describe would only protect the path up to that device. You may as well just send the signals unencrypted.

That said, I believe there's already an (illegal in the US) device out that can take HDCP signals and break them down to standard DVI or HDMI.

-Erwos

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: davet11
Would buying a non-HDCP device at the moment be like throwing money away if somebody is concerned with media capabilities? Or is it a technology that like HDtv will take several years to become anything near mainstream, and therefore buying something non-HDCP compliant now would still last quite some time? (I'm thinking about things like the VHS -> DVD change. VHS was still used for quite some time and it took years for the technology to be largely phased out).

Will there be any kind of "mid-line" solution that would make say, a 2405fpw HDCP compliant?

What do you think of the whole HDCP thing?

1. Blu-Ray, HD-DVD, and possibly some DRM'd video files will officially require HDCP to play at full resolution. If none of those things matter to you, HDCP is not going to be needed.
2. Not a legal one (see my previous post).
3. It's not quite a scam, but I doubt it'll be effective. More likely, we'll see "HDCP-free" players like we have "region-free" players right now.

-Erwos

 

[openwheelformula1]

when I purchased my 32' LCD TV I made sure I got one with hdcp, I will have to do the same when I upgrade my computer screen as well. Actually HDCP is enforced by both Windows Vista and the movie titles as well. If you want to watch movies in high def you must play by the rules. It's really stupid I know, but this is what happens when there are so many pirated movies on the net. I don't think copy protection will stop any piracy though, cause h.264 might just make it easier. Just make sure you got one that is HDCP compliant, especially flat screen TVs.

 

[Ronin]

Even hardware security measures can be circumvented (both legally and otherwise).

I'm expecting some sort of passthrough alternative (a legal one) for those people that don't want to spend the money to upgrade (a dongle, if you will).

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: Ronin
Even hardware security measures can be circumvented (both legally and otherwise).

I'm expecting some sort of passthrough alternative (a legal one) for those people that don't want to spend the money to upgrade (a dongle, if you will).

You can't bypass/crack encryption legally, even for compatibility, in the US. Thank the DMCA for that. HDCP uses encryption. It just isn't going to happen.

And like I said, a dongle really makes no sense in this particular situation.

-Erwos

 

[Ronin]

You obviously know little about what's being talked about. We'll see, and I'll quote you later when you're proven wrong. (if you weren't already aware, which it's apparent you aren't, several companies have already started working on a legal solution).

 

[Markbnj]

And like I said, a dongle really makes no sense in this particular situation.

Why not? A dongle that decrypted HDCP signals and output DVI or component video would certainly be technically possible, and it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a new monitor. I understand it probably won't be legal, but that isn't the same thing as not making sense .

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: Ronin
You obviously know little about what's being talked about. We'll see, and I'll quote you later when you're proven wrong. (if you weren't already aware, which it's apparent you aren't, several companies have already started working on a legal solution).

OK, I'll take you on that: link?

-Erwos

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
Why not? A dongle that decrypted HDCP signals and output DVI or component video would certainly be technically possible, and it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a new monitor. I understand it probably won't be legal, but that isn't the same thing as not making sense .

It makes plenty of sense if you ignore the legality of the situation. Most manufacturers won't.

The reason it makes no sense for people who _could_ do it legally is that protecting only part of the path is worthless. You've got to protect the whole thing for it to work. Why would the HDCP consortium (or whomever it is) purposely sabotage themselves.

-Erwos

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: Markbnj
Why not? A dongle that decrypted HDCP signals and output DVI or component video would certainly be technically possible, and it would be a heck of a lot cheaper than a new monitor. I understand it probably won't be legal, but that isn't the same thing as not making sense .

It makes plenty of sense if you ignore the legality of the situation. Most manufacturers won't.

The reason it makes no sense for people who _could_ do it legally is that protecting only part of the path is worthless. You've got to protect the whole thing for it to work. Why would the HDCP consortium (or whomever it is) purposely sabotage themselves.

-Erwos

but $$$ speaks louder than any consortium (which ironically is the main impetus behind HDCP in the first place). if the mass won't adopt to requirements of all new hardware, then there will always be provisions / stipulations in place for stop-gap solutions like dongles. it only makes $$$$ to do so.

 

[Markbnj]

The reason it makes no sense for people who _could_ do it legally is that protecting only part of the path is worthless. You've got to protect the whole thing for it to work. Why would the HDCP consortium (or whomever it is) purposely sabotage themselves.

Agreed, they won't, but the success of this strategy depends on the assumption that they can use hardware to effectively lock up the information. People will build these devices, and publish plans for building these devices. Other people will set up high def displays in scientifically calibrated darkrooms and point capture devices at the screen . It ain't gonna work.

but $$$ speaks louder than any consortium (which ironically is the main impetus behind HDCP in the first place). if the mass won't adopt to requirements of all new hardware, then there will always be provisions / stipulations in place for stop-gap solutions like dongles. it only makes $$$$ to do so.

And this is also a very underappreciated aspect of it. Software developers have known for years that they are losing x% of potential sales to pirates. Hardware dongles have been available for almost twenty years. Why didn't they take off on consumer software (or really even commercial software)? I think it is because the day after the dongle requirement is introduced the market shrinks by 75% or more.

This situation is much worse in the consumer electronics market. A dongle doesn't cost very much, unlike a high def display. Are the content producers going to have the balls to require HDCP if at the point where they have to make the decision only 3% of consumers have compliant devices?

Chicken, meet Egg.

 

[imported_ST]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

And this is also a very underappreciated aspect of it. Software developers have known for years that they are losing x% of potential sales to pirates. Hardware dongles have been available for almost twenty years. Why didn't they take off on consumer software (or really even commercial software)? I think it is because the day after the dongle requirement is introduced the market shrinks by 75% or more.

This situation is much worse in the consumer electronics market. A dongle doesn't cost very much, unlike a high def display. Are the content producers going to have the balls to require HDCP if at the point where they have to make the decision only 3% of consumers have compliant devices?

Chicken, meet Egg.

Salesman: Here you go ProConsumerA, the latest and greatest technological advancementin HiDefc reation [choose ur BR / HD-DVD content] shown in full glory 1080p wonder! But make sure you have HDCP compliant components. You do have right?

ProConsumerA: Yup sure do. Bought the largest 75" Sharp/Samsun/Sony 1080p LCDTV fully compliant set I could find. Costed a pretty penny, but hey, it's just money right! The wife and neighbors are going to gawk at this!

NubConsumerB: Hey Salesman, what about me? i want to see that also in HiDef, but don't think i have a CDHP-majiger thingy you said, just an old fashion set with my VCR.

Salesman: Ahhh, no to worry, since your set does not have all the advancements, thus will not full advantage of HiDef capabilities, you can buy this little HDCP compliant dongle here and still enjoy all the new content it features, all without breaking the bank and requiring you to buy new gear!

NubConsumerB: Jee Louise whilikers - thank you for making my TVHD-enabled enabled. I can afford that and you're right, I dont need the extra resomuhlution.

Salesman: No problem, let me ring you BOTH up! $$$$

/godmode off

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Ronin
You obviously know little about what's being talked about. We'll see, and I'll quote you later when you're proven wrong. (if you weren't already aware, which it's apparent you aren't, several companies have already started working on a legal solution).

There's nothing that can "legally" do it (unless the DMCA is repealed).

There's a device out now that will strip HDCP and output a clean digital signal. I suspect it will stop working as soon as the first commercial film releases hit, since there is a blacklisting protocol as part of HDCP that can be used to identify compromised devices and keep them from being given the signal in the first place.

You would need hardware that was somehow licensed by the HDCP folks, yet: 1) capable of stripping HDCP protection, and 2) capable of lying about its identity (which would most likely require inside knowledge of the HDCP protocol). This is not something you're going to throw together with $10 in materials and a few hours of free time. And I doubt the companies behind HDCP would be dumb enough to license their technology to someone they didn't trust.

Agreed, they won't, but the success of this strategy depends on the assumption that they can use hardware to effectively lock up the information.

Well, frankly, they can.

People will build these devices, and publish plans for building these devices.

What devices? Breaking the encryption in general would require inside knowledge of the protocol (which, unless someone in the know leaks the information, is essentially impossible to get). It uses per-session encryption keys (unlike DSS), so it's not a 'break it once, break it forever' type of system. I get the feeling when these discussions come up that a lot of people are simply in denial about the whole thing.

Other people will set up high def displays in scientifically calibrated darkrooms and point capture devices at the screen . It ain't gonna work.

Not much they can do about that, but again, it's not something that you can do by installing a 1MB program and clicking a few buttons. Making recordings like this at any reasonable sort of quality is well beyond the means of the vast majority of people.

Also, re: "they have to have converters/dongles/whatever": the spec allows for content to specify how it is allowed to be played back. I suspect that most content will let you still watch it at something like 480p if you don't have an HDCP-capable monitor/TV. Of course, almost every HDTV sold in the last five years supports it, so this won't be much of an issue for almost anyone with an HDTV.

 

[niggles]

there's already been a lengthy thread on this topic. 2 things come to mind from that topic.

1. this is not acceptable, don't support it by giving money until they drop the ridiculous requirement to register your monitor.
2. It'll get cracked just like everything else and they'll have to get rid of it.
3. There's nothing anyone can do, don't by *any* new hardware until it comes out
4. buy your hardware and ignore the entire downloadable media.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: niggles
there's already been a lengthy thread on this topic. 2 things come to mind from that topic.

1. this is not acceptable, don't support it by giving money until they drop the ridiculous requirement to register your monitor.

There's no "requirement to register your monitor". Yeesh. There's enough FUD going around about HDCP already. It's an encryption spec at the player/display level.

2. It'll get cracked just like everything else and they'll have to get rid of it.

Um, no, this one probably won't. At least not very quickly. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't have a real good grasp of what it is and how it works.

3. There's nothing anyone can do, don't by *any* new hardware until it comes out

It's already supported by the VAST majority of HDTV sets. It's only computer monitors that have been lacking.

4. buy your hardware and ignore the entire downloadable media.

Uh... what?

 

[Markbnj]

What devices? Breaking the encryption in general would require inside knowledge of the protocol (which, unless someone in the know leaks the information, is essentially impossible to get). It uses per-session encryption keys (unlike DSS), so it's not a 'break it once, break it forever' type of system. I get the feeling when these discussions come up that a lot of people are simply in denial about the whole thing.

How secret can a hardware encryption protocol be when the devices have to be manufactured and embedded in hundreds of different devices from dozens of manufacturers? All you would need is to get your hands on the chip that sits at either end.

I'm not challenging the technical point about the encryption, but I am saying that it will never hold up.

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: Markbnj

What devices? Breaking the encryption in general would require inside knowledge of the protocol (which, unless someone in the know leaks the information, is essentially impossible to get). It uses per-session encryption keys (unlike DSS), so it's not a 'break it once, break it forever' type of system. I get the feeling when these discussions come up that a lot of people are simply in denial about the whole thing.

How secret can a hardware encryption protocol be when the devices have to be manufactured and embedded in hundreds of different devices from dozens of manufacturers? All you would need is to get your hands on the chip that sits at either end.

...and do what with it, exactly? The protocol itself is partially encrypted, and parts of the spec aren't even made public. If you had inside information on how it worked, then you could *try* to break it, but without that it would be extremely difficult.

Now, that said, there are still ways to make copies/rips of protected material without breaking the encryption (for instance, by hacking or tapping into an HDCP-capable display device at the output side, or doing an HD-quality re-recording as you suggested), but none of these are particularly easy, and none of them break the protocol.

 

[ND40oz]

HDCP is really quite simple, if your monitor supports it and the outputting device supports it, you will get >480p high def signals to your display. If your monitor doesn't support it, for content protected material, you'll be limited to 480p. If the output device doesn't support it, then you have nothing to worry about and you'll get the highest resolution possible.

To crack it, you just need to have the output device output unencrypted signal. If you can make windows vista and whatever video card your using do that, then more power to you and continue using your 2405. If you can't, time to buy a 2407.

If you look at all of the upscaling dvd players released on the market, you'll see that most of them require a DVI or HDMI connection to output the upscaled video. We know that component can do greater then 480p (xbox and xbox 360 are good examples) but because of HDCP, they don't allow this to happen. I can't wait to see how Microsoft makes the xbox 360 capable of playing back HDDVDs. From the tech specs I read, it only outputs an analogue signal and there are currently no DVI/HDMI cables for it. I don't think they're going to allow HDDVDs to be played at resolutions greater the 480p without a secure digital connection. But thats getting a little off topic.

 

[Matthias99]

I can't wait to see how Microsoft makes the xbox 360 capable of playing back HDDVDs. From the tech specs I read, it only outputs an analogue signal and there are currently no DVI/HDMI cables for it. I don't think they're going to allow HDDVDs to be played at resolutions greater the 480p without a secure digital connection. But thats getting a little off topic.

It might help if they had an HD-DVD drive in it first.

 

[dorkbert]

It doesn't really answer a certain question though: will there be the possibility of an after market solution that could be used to view HDCP compliant content on non-HDCP compliant devices. I'm sure like most people, it seems absolutely crazy to me that they are expecting everybody to upgrade all of their televisions and monitors in order to view new content.

There is, although it is illegal to market in the US due to the law most of us love to hate: DMCA. I recall seeing a product that does exactly that advertised in Europe (somewhere, since price was quoted in euro.)

 

[niggles]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: niggles
there's already been a lengthy thread on this topic. 2 things come to mind from that topic.

1. this is not acceptable, don't support it by giving money until they drop the ridiculous requirement to register your monitor.

There's no "requirement to register your monitor". Yeesh. There's enough FUD going around about HDCP already. It's an encryption spec at the player/display level.

Sorry, totally worded incorrectly. What I meant was that you file only works with your montiors serial number, not simply because your monitor is set to allow the file, it has to register the the file against the serial number of the monitor. It will not play on another monitor

2. It'll get cracked just like everything else and they'll have to get rid of it.

Um, no, this one probably won't. At least not very quickly. Anyone saying otherwise doesn't have a real good grasp of what it is and how it works.[/quote]

Anything can be cracked, it simply comes down to time and energy. In this particular case it came down to the energy that would have to be exerted. Like I said, this has been heavily discussed. For your reading pleasure I found the thread for you so you can read the arguments for and against: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...hreadid=1639479&enterthread=y&arctab=y
The thing about my post you should note is that these were options on the subject.

3. There's nothing anyone can do, don't by *any* new hardware until it comes out

It's already supported by the VAST majority of HDTV sets. It's only computer monitors that have been lacking.[/quote]
It's the fact that it forces anyone with a PC to buy new hardware if they want to view this media. It's a bad implementation, they should figure something else out for PCs that doesn't involve forcing people who have paid a lot of money for their hardware to go out and buy it all over again.

4. buy your hardware and ignore the entire downloadable media.

Uh... what?[/quote]
what are you asking?[/quote]

Edit: After re:reading your post I think I'm looking at a different aspect of the rights management than you are speaking of. You don't seem to be talking about download and watch rights management, only insert and play type external media. Interesting to note that encrytion occurs each time. It makes sense as to why you'd do that I suppose. Do you know that they are applying the same rules to downloadable media?

 

[Janooo]

Originally posted by: Matthias99
...

What devices? Breaking the encryption in general would require inside knowledge of the protocol (which, unless someone in the know leaks the information, is essentially impossible to get). It uses per-session encryption keys (unlike DSS), so it's not a 'break it once, break it forever' type of system. I get the feeling when these discussions come up that a lot of people are simply in denial about the whole thing.

...

A piece of HW that goes to HDCP TV can be used in a HDCP -> component converter. How difficult it can be?
Unless this HW is serialized and tracked there is no way it can be prevented.