The Hardcore MMO...

Grimbones

Senior member
Jun 12, 2004
551
0
0
MMO Soliloquy

Here is what I am looking for in a next generation MMO:

-Good graphics. I have had the same computer for three years now and have been itching to upgrade it for a while now. Unfortunately, I have found no reason to do so, which I think is fairly sad. Though, I am expecting this to change with the release of the new consoles.

-A deep crafting system. Hopefully, something along the lines of Vanguard, Everquest 2, FF14 (yeah, it was painful, but the crafting was ff14's only redeeming feature). I am tired of games catering crafting to people who couldn't care less about crafting in first place. The crafting systems practically play themselves nowadays, and i find that disappointing. Please use your brains developers. I am sure there is a way to make crafting fun and engaging again! This goes for gathering materials as well...

-Difficulty. Some call it making a game hardcore, but I would just call it a challenge. So many games seem to catapult the players to the max level in no time, with no real plan with what to do with them once they are there. Oh, and where is the death penalty? It doesn't have to be crippling, but something to make death a little more than an inconvenience would be nice. I would also prefer to be grouped with friends grinding exp and exploring the landscape than stuck at max level queuing BG's from the main city.

-Grouping. Long have I waited to play a game where the social aspect of the MMO has been renewed. I harken back to the days of EQ in my memory so often on this one. If a game is so easy, it makes grouping unimportant and worthless. There should be perks to grouping. Perhaps classes could chain combos together off of one another, or exploit their enemies’ weakness with some tactics. All of these things would improve the quality of game play to the social MMO player. You should allow players the opportunity to plan out their encounters beforehand, and increase player camaraderie. I mean, even vanilla WoW had some fun grouping when it came to 40man raids!

-Class specialty. What i mean by this is...classes that have defined roles, and also classes that have particular uses to the other classes. Every class should have a use, and not feel left out in the cold and unneeded. I remember fondly when people would actually buff others to help them out in Everquest, and the buffs actually seemed to do something useful as well (shocking, i know)! It is an epidemic nowadays that classes are becoming homogenized, and uninteresting in group circumstances.

-Exploration. I miss getting lost in the game I am playing. Time consuming treks through the wilderness where certain locations let your jaw drop in amazement at what you were seeing were always exciting. I do not necessarily mean beautiful locations, but getting to those beautiful locations and not knowing how you got there. Unfortunately, it could just be a sign of the times that nobody wants to explore, and everyone wants a beautiful map handed to them when they start the game. I think it would be a great feature if maps existed in the world later on, and you had to purchase them to find out where you were going (again, it’s unfortunate, but I know these would wind up on Youtube in minutes). As a player, though, a map is something that I would gladly pay for, it would be a good way to get money out of the economy, and also add some interest to the game early on.

-Boats. This may go hand in hand with exploration, but I also miss taking a ship into the great unknown and discovering what waits for you on the other side. Even waiting for a ship to step onto with a group of players was interesting to me, and added immersion to the gameplay. While we are on the subject of boats, why are there so few dynamic events when you step aboard one? Imagine, if you will, a player fishing over the side of the boat when it is set upon by pirates, or some other nefarious creature. To me that would be awesome. Even if you went afk and you were dead when you came back to your computer, you would then have a score to settle. Please think outside the box. Traveling does not have to be boring if you put your minds to it!

-Interesting Quests. This also goes with exploration, as i feel that is an enormous part of MMOs that is unfortunately becoming diminished. I am tired of going from place to place being led around by the nose. Allow the player some measure of freedom. Let them go off on their own and find interesting things to do that the developer has left there for them. Word of mouth would spread rapidly, and the players in turn would be drawn to these areas. This allows freedom of choice for the player and the benefit of knowing that your content will not be overlooked or completely ignored because it is being presented to them on a silver platter.

-Good Writing. Everything in an MMO is more entertaining and interesting if there is interesting writing. Imagine you meet a man on the side of the road, his trusty steed has fallen ill (dead) on the side of the road, he has an important message to deliver! You hurry down the road to deliver it and are set upon by bandits. All things considered, that is simply a delivery quest, with a kill quest built in, but because of interesting writing, it feels like a lot more. You just have to be willing to script out the events ahead of time. Scripting out events is fine as long as it engages the player.

You could even continue this quest later, you run into the same guy later on, and maybe it turns out he was just lazy and didn’t want to deliver the letter, or he has pissed off a number of angry centaur people because of his harsh treatment of horses....the possibilities are endless. Don't limit your imagination!

-Character Customization. I am not talking about dragging the nose tilt around, or changing the size of the pupils. There are only a few things that make a noticeable difference in how your character is perceived to the public. Hair, facial or otherwise, makes an enormous difference. I am tired of playing games where there are 4 different types of hair, and a mohawk, for the kids who like to be different. I mean come on, dedicate some people to creating different hair styles for each different race!

Additionally, the face in general is very important. This is where you can apply more interesting things like tattoos, earrings, scars, facial deformations, skin color, tribal piercings, etc. If you must add sliders, that is just a feather in the players cap, but something that is not going to change things that much. Also, consider height, and weight to change the characters a bit.

-Something I haven't thought of! A political system, perhaps? Vanguard had diplomacy, and while it wasn't amazing it showed promise. There must be a system out there that you could add to the game to set it apart from the others. I should warn you, if you are to do this, make sure you do not go into it lighthearted manner. Also, make sure everything else is solid before you go into another system.

-Fun Pvp. See (Vanilla) World of Warcraft, or even Hutball. Objective based PvP can be hugely entertaining. They are the most sport-like forms of PvP, where competition and team work are key to victory!

**Some things to avoid**

-Do not make the world too enormous. I think this is what effectively ended Brad Mcquaids career (And I am sad about this, by the way--great game designer, not so savvy businessman). I love the idea of an enormous world. You have read about how much I love exploration, but we are dealing with reality here. Unless you have billions of dollars free, the sheer amount of content you would have to create to fill a world and make it feel alive to the player would be staggering. Better to have a smaller world with scores of content. Expansions are there for a reason. To be clear, i would love an enormous world completely filled with content, but that seems almost impossible with how much money it would cost to build a game i am describing.

-Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. MMOs have become popular largely because of great worlds, the social aspect of the games, and the combat. Lately, in a clumsy attempt to distance themselves from being labeled a dreaded "WoW clone”, developers have taken to tweaking with core game mechanics. Combat especially.

Every new game since WoW seems to try to be pushing a non-auto attack system that has the player spamming the 1 key over and over and over to build resources. I am sorry, but this repetitive motion is not increasing the players’ level of enjoyment. Auto attack allows the player to do damage while using their brain to decide which executable ability will provide the greatest benefit at the time. It allows time for strategy. Spamming a key over and over does nothing to increase player enjoyment, and isn't fun.

To me, this goes along with the dodge mechanic in GW2, and The Secret World. It does bring little to the table, and further complicates what should already be a strategy heavy combat system.

-Do not cater solely to the fanboy. I am sure there are millions of things i have not thought of, but chief among them should be this. If someone is patting you on the back, then they are not giving you input on how to improve your product, and that is typically detrimental. Gaming is a very progressive business, and you cannot stand on your laurels if you hope to continue to succeed. This is not saying you should completely abandon what got you to where you are, but you should be very aware that an MMO that stagnates can become very repetitive.

In closing, I know i am asking for a lot, but i promise if most of these goals were met, the developer would have a quality game on their hands that would be pretty popular. Perhaps not to the extent of WoW, but developers need to stop striving for that unattainable goal. Even Blizzard was not striving for that when they started out, and look where they ended up. Granted, they have alienated a great number of core gamers since the launch of the game in search of greater profits, but that is the risk you run when you are trying to broaden your brand.

In my mind, every single game that has come out that has tried to copy the WoW formula has been a disappointment. Roll the dice, and strive to be something different, who knows, you may just wind up being a success.

I apologize for the length of this, but I simply wanted to get a few things off my chest.
 
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maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
EVE is a space game and has nothing to do with MMORPGs in the sense of EQ, et al.

And for all its complexity, EVE I could never play because I'd rather fly my ship, not command it like an RTS.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
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EVE is a space game and has nothing to do with MMORPGs in the sense of EQ, et al.

And for all its complexity, EVE I could never play because I'd rather fly my ship, not command it like an RTS.

He didn't say he wanted an EQ MMO, he said he wanted a hardcore MMO. Eve has amazing graphics, an almost unparalleled character creation mechanism, and extremely in depth and extensive manufacturing system.

The better pilots in Eve fly "manually" instead of pressing the orbit button. It's what allows good pilots to take on and kill ships that new pilots would die in seconds against. It's extremely skill intensive and if you don't know how to do it, you really need to learn.

Also, I don't exactly know how you would "fly" your ships in the sense of freelancer. There is too much stuff going on. Could you, in first person mode flying, somehow manage maneuvering your ship in 3D space, while keeping one target warp jammed, firing at another target, managing drones all the while trying to manage the information from 10 enemy ships coming in?

How about if you fly a recon ship, how could you possibly manage to keep 7 targets jammed and locked up and manually manage your jammers, while using your drones and guns to kill incoming drones while manually flying.

It simply can't be done. This isn't a single player game where you just have to look at a single target and press fire to kill it. Eve is a game where 2v2, 5v5, 1000v1000 fights happen.
 
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maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
That's the point. The space game I would want should be designed so that you can do those things. I didn't say this had to be a single person thing, multi-crew spaceships. Think Planetside 2 with spaceships. Which we might eventually get...

He didn't say EQ MMO but I have no doubt he will come here and say that that is what he meant.

If you want a hardcore niche game, don't expect big budget graphics.

I'm not even sure that a game should be called hardcore just because you have to group and don't reach max level in 2 weeks for full time players or 4-5 weeks for casual gamers....and certainly not necessarily niche.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
@Grimbones

FFXI (11):

Good graphics = meh, but its "pretty" enough on a pc.

A deep crafting system = Time of Day, Ingame Weekday, Elemental used, and a million other things effect crafting. (plus theres crafting gear, to aim for, that ll better you (a serious crafter) compaired to someone who just leveled it up quick, and hasnt had months to earn crafting gear's.)

Difficulty - One of the only PvE games with difficulty in it, you ll find today.

Grouping - ffxi limits what you can do alone, however your rewarded with the best grouping gameplay in any mmo (ive played).

Class specialty - every class has unique rolls to play. The downside to this is, if you get invited as a "white mage" but you want to play as a dps instead, people will kick you out of the group, and you ll get a "reputation" for being "that guy".

Exploration - FFXI is huge, has many continents and lots of exploreing. Infact when you start out, you dont even have MAPs to new area's, and there are hidden quests/missions to find.

Boats - Boats & Airships? just as a means of transportation thoug, though you can fish on them (do the odd quest on them too).

Interesting Quests - Each game and expansion, has "mission's" that are very story driven.

Good Writing - Its a old Final fantasy game, ofc the writeing is good :)

Character Customization - You can mix/match <main job> + <sub job>, as you choose, and Merit points/gear will differentiate you from others of your main job. Theres not much "cosmetic" customization, but really.... are you playing a mmo or barbie dress up?

Fun Pvp - ffxi has pvp, but its not really a aspect of the game.
More like if you wanted to challenge a person (duels) to see whos the better player in a fight.

Fun PvE is more or less all ffxi has for you.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
@Grimbones

FFXI (11):

Good graphics = meh, but its "pretty" enough on a pc.

A deep crafting system = Time of Day, Ingame Weekday, Elemental used, and a million other things effect crafting. (plus theres crafting gear, to aim for, that ll better you (a serious crafter) compaired to someone who just leveled it up quick, and hasnt had months to earn crafting gear's.)

Difficulty - One of the only PvE games with difficulty in it, you ll find today.

Grouping - ffxi limits what you can do alone, however your rewarded with the best grouping gameplay in any mmo (ive played).

Class specialty - every class has unique rolls to play. The downside to this is, if you get invited as a "white mage" but you want to play as a dps instead, people will kick you out of the group, and you ll get a "reputation" for being "that guy".

Exploration - FFXI is huge, has many continents and lots of exploreing. Infact when you start out, you dont even have MAPs to new area's, and there are hidden quests/missions to find.

Boats - Boats & Airships? just as a means of transportation thoug, though you can fish on them (do the odd quest on them too).

Interesting Quests - Each game and expansion, has "mission's" that are very story driven.

Good Writing - Its a old Final fantasy game, ofc the writeing is good :)

Character Customization - You can mix/match <main job> + <sub job>, as you choose, and Merit points/gear will differentiate you from others of your main job. Theres not much "cosmetic" customization, but really.... are you playing a mmo or barbie dress up?

Fun Pvp - ffxi has pvp, but its not really a aspect of the game.
More like if you wanted to challenge a person (duels) to see whos the better player in a fight.

Fun PvE is more or less all ffxi has for you.

FFXI was amazing. But its hard to find groups nowadays. Had tons of trouble getting full parties in Quifim and Dunes. Before they used to be packed with people and every single depression in the rocks was a camp, but nowadays, only a few in the lower level zones.

Also, latest patch was made FFXI easy mode, so no real point to playing it now for a hardcore experience.
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
For almost all of your gripes, the ultimate results is a direct result of what the market demands. This may sound sad, but remember, its all the same people playing L4D2 (see thread that someone complained about the user experience with other people) that probably constitute most of the MMO userbase.

When WOW came out the game was referred to as a noob's MMO, and it was much much much more difficult than what it is today. It got easier because that is what they had to do to keep people, and that is what it took to get people to end game (Which was really the only new content that was being added).

I don't know if you were around to remember the controversy around the first Everquest when people wanted to mod in a "GPS" that we all have today. SOE took some very harsh actions against the player under the same reasons of exploration, fair playing field, creating a user experience, etc. etc. Guess what the result was for MMOs that came later on? Mod friendly!

Finally I think good writing is limited; its hard to keep a story going the way an MMO demands unless there is a true end, or unless you plan a massive story arc...which inevitably feels like it turns into a cheap way to draw things out.
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,801
581
126
Well, it won't hit 100% on all of your points, and we'll have to see how much is changed and improved with the re-launch, but Darkfall: Unoly Wars *might* be just enough to interest you.


-Good graphics: The graphics have been upgraded, but I wouldn't call them good, but they are definitely serviceable. The animations still seem to be terrible though.

-A deep crafting system: Not sure what degree of depth you're looking for here. If it's the minigame system w/ variables in the results, DF doesn't have it. I believe there may be more variety from the results or crafting recipes now. The good part is that crafting is meaningful, as it's the primary source of gear for everyone.

-Difficulty: Check. Death penalty? Lose all your gear to whoever loots your corpse. Also a degree of twitch combat to differentiate player skill.

-Grouping: Check. There are plenty of success stories of people flying solo in this game, but it's more about grouping together and having in-game assets such as cities to control and fight over.

-Class specialty: We'll see. Before the game was 100% skillbased and you could eventually grind out every skill. Now they have specialization paths that focus your role and give you stronger powers to support that role. You can still "get everything," supposedly, but you can only tap into one specific role and its associated skills at a time.

-Exploration: Big open world, plenty to see, especially for a first-timer. As terrible as the game was at its first launch 2 years ago, it was pretty impressive to roam the vast landscapes and see what you can find.

-Boats: Yep. They carry players around, you drive them yourself, and you can shoot cannons at each other and carry out boarding party raids. Boats are pretty entertaining.

-Interesting Quests: Quests were virtually non-existant in the original Darkfall beyond very simple kill quests to help introduce players to the game and crafting. I have no clue if or how much they have expanded questing.

-Good Writing: Not relevant (see above)? Write your own story? =p My guild's city on the original game launch lasted 14 sieges (probably a server record) before it finally fell. That made for some good stories.

-Character Customization: I honestly don't remember how detailed this was.

-Political System: Well, a big part of the game is about owning cities and taking them from each other. I don't know if they are adding any systems to support player politics (beyond the obvious guilds and alliances), but players generally make their own politics in these types of games.

-Fun PvP: PvP with consequences is what makes PvP fun to me. Darkfall has that in spades. It's not exactly the light-hearted, fun romp that vanilla WoW open world PvP was though.

**Some things to avoid**

-Do not make the world too enormous: DF fell into this trap the first time around. They have shrunk the map some for DF:UW.

-Reinventing Combat Mechanics: Well, it's 1st person or 3rd/shoulder cam view with largely twitch based combat. It's most similar to Elder Scrolls (Skyrim) I suppose. It's not standard 3rd person WoW mechanics; either you'll like it or you wont.

-Do not cater solely to the fanboy: DF catered to noone and didn't listen to enough feedback imo. We'll see how they do this time around. :D




In closing, if you're feeling adventurous and looking for something different, give it a whirl. Despite all the original's problems, it was still great fun for a while. There is also something to be said for playing right at launch during the "land grab" phase. Even if the game has too many problems to be enjoyable in the long term, many of the flaws can be overlooked in the first two or three months because of the fun and player enthusiasm surrounding the initial push.

If you'd like a guild to roll with, come check out my guild Virakar. We've been around ~10 years with strong PvP roots in Shadowbane (historically we are an RP-PvP guild) and have played almost everything out since then. You'll have to excuse the dust on our dated site--we are currently in the middle of a massive redesign and haven't launched any of the new stuff yet.
Main site: http://www.virakar.com/phpBB3/
Temporary Darkfall branch site: http://www.outriders.net

Come check us out!
 

damocles

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,105
5
81
MMO Soliloquy

Here is what I am looking for in a next generation MMO:

....

I apologize for the length of this, but I simply wanted to get a few things off my chest.

I posted a very similar thread recently and it appears there are at least of two of us out there.

I had a crack at Vanguard this weekend and it was far better than at launch.Probably 80% of what I am looking for. However it has the feel of a game on the decline. For me, if I want to invest into a hardcore MMO, I want to know it has a thriving community and is somewhere where I will look to hang out for 3+ years.

I resubbed to EVE for three months to see how I go. I'd prefer a fantasy MMO but EVE at least has a strong community...
 

KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
33,497
53,597
136
Well, it won't hit 100% on all of your points, and we'll have to see how much is changed and improved with the re-launch, but Darkfall: Unoly Wars *might* be just enough to interest you.


-Good graphics: The graphics have been upgraded, but I wouldn't call them good, but they are definitely serviceable. The animations still seem to be terrible though.

-A deep crafting system: Not sure what degree of depth you're looking for here. If it's the minigame system w/ variables in the results, DF doesn't have it. I believe there may be more variety from the results or crafting recipes now. The good part is that crafting is meaningful, as it's the primary source of gear for everyone.

-Difficulty: Check. Death penalty? Lose all your gear to whoever loots your corpse. Also a degree of twitch combat to differentiate player skill.

-Grouping: Check. There are plenty of success stories of people flying solo in this game, but it's more about grouping together and having in-game assets such as cities to control and fight over.

-Class specialty: We'll see. Before the game was 100% skillbased and you could eventually grind out every skill. Now they have specialization paths that focus your role and give you stronger powers to support that role. You can still "get everything," supposedly, but you can only tap into one specific role and its associated skills at a time.

-Exploration: Big open world, plenty to see, especially for a first-timer. As terrible as the game was at its first launch 2 years ago, it was pretty impressive to roam the vast landscapes and see what you can find.

-Boats: Yep. They carry players around, you drive them yourself, and you can shoot cannons at each other and carry out boarding party raids. Boats are pretty entertaining.

-Interesting Quests: Quests were virtually non-existant in the original Darkfall beyond very simple kill quests to help introduce players to the game and crafting. I have no clue if or how much they have expanded questing.

-Good Writing: Not relevant (see above)? Write your own story? =p My guild's city on the original game launch lasted 14 sieges (probably a server record) before it finally fell. That made for some good stories.

-Character Customization: I honestly don't remember how detailed this was.

-Political System: Well, a big part of the game is about owning cities and taking them from each other. I don't know if they are adding any systems to support player politics (beyond the obvious guilds and alliances), but players generally make their own politics in these types of games.

-Fun PvP: PvP with consequences is what makes PvP fun to me. Darkfall has that in spades. It's not exactly the light-hearted, fun romp that vanilla WoW open world PvP was though.

**Some things to avoid**

-Do not make the world too enormous: DF fell into this trap the first time around. They have shrunk the map some for DF:UW.

-Reinventing Combat Mechanics: Well, it's 1st person or 3rd/shoulder cam view with largely twitch based combat. It's most similar to Elder Scrolls (Skyrim) I suppose. It's not standard 3rd person WoW mechanics; either you'll like it or you wont.

-Do not cater solely to the fanboy: DF catered to noone and didn't listen to enough feedback imo. We'll see how they do this time around. :D




In closing, if you're feeling adventurous and looking for something different, give it a whirl. Despite all the original's problems, it was still great fun for a while. There is also something to be said for playing right at launch during the "land grab" phase. Even if the game has too many problems to be enjoyable in the long term, many of the flaws can be overlooked in the first two or three months because of the fun and player enthusiasm surrounding the initial push.

If you'd like a guild to roll with, come check out my guild Virakar. We've been around ~10 years with strong PvP roots in Shadowbane (historically we are an RP-PvP guild) and have played almost everything out since then. You'll have to excuse the dust on our dated site--we are currently in the middle of a massive redesign and haven't launched any of the new stuff yet.
Main site: http://www.virakar.com/phpBB3/
Temporary Darkfall branch site: http://www.outriders.net

Come check us out!

This was the last MMO i got really into, sadly the rampant cheating/dupes ruined it
 

GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
6,801
581
126
Well the good news is there is a full character/server wipe for the "sequel." And the extra good news in your case is that you can come back to check it out for just the cost of a one month sub--they aren't charging original owners for the "box" again.

As far as cheating... I had a huge issue with the early on exploits that put some people way ahead in character stats, which is why I'm really glad they're wiping characters. I don't recall too many serious cheats other than the radar hacks, though, which are a pretty big problem for a game like this. However, I don't remember a lot of duping going on.
 
Nov 29, 2006
15,922
4,493
136
After reading all that i want to play Vanguard again. really liked that game. Too bad it didnt have a larger following. Loved my bard.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
Ships != boats

Are there spaceboats?
I'm going with sure, under the assumptions that spaceships are also spaceboats.

But unless the OP wants to ignore the MMO he's been wanting the entire time because of the lack of sea boats, which is more than compensated for with the existance of spaceships, sure.

Also, spaceboat

YgkWK.jpg
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
I'm going to try blade and soul when it is released here in the west, looks like it will be good.
 

Grimbones

Senior member
Jun 12, 2004
551
0
0
Forgot about this, with my Giants winning the world series and everything!

I should say, i've played a ton of MMO's, and enjoyed the complexity of EVE, but to me, i prefer playing a tangible character rather than a spaceship. Also, Space is pretty infinite, and tends to look remarkably similar no matter where you go. The game does have a great graphics engine, but without worlds to go down onto and explore, i'm afraid it just is not my cup of tea. Also, in my opinion, games with that steep of a learning curve, and such an enormous time commitment is kind of on the edge for me.

I would love to play a game with a huge time commitment, but the way to skill system exists in Eve, it makes it very difficult to find a level playing field for new comers--at least in my experience.

That being said...

In response to damocles, i actually did notice your thread, and was going to respond with this enormous post, but i forget how huge it was, so i just opened up a new thread. I am glad you are on the side of the hardcore MMO.

Now, Hardcore is one thing, looting everything you worked for because you were killed in PvP is masochistic, and if that happened to me i would undoubtedly throw a 1500 dollar computer out my window and punch a hole through my door, and cry myself to sleep in the fetal position.

I am all for hardcore, but you have to put a limit on it.

I loved EQ, and the death penalty was an important part of the game, because you actually FEARED dying (unlike in most games nowadays, where it is a minor inconvenience). That being said, i think there could be ways to ease the loss to make it more accessible. Like perhaps the ability to resummon a long lost corpse deep in a dungeon once a day (have that be a class spell, Necro?).

Social interaction is important! Most games do not understand that anymore. I can't stand that when you get buffs from people, it barely does anything to affect your usefulness in combat. It was always great when a higher level person would buff a newbie and they would actually be amazing in combat for 30 minutes or so. That was fun. I realize these things are exploitable, and likely would be, but why ruin the chance at fun in the community because of possible exploiting.

Does anyone like my map idea? I think this would be a really good idea. I loved feeling completely lost in nektulos forest--in fact i remember the first time i was playing i was absolutely lost in neriak, and i went to talk to a guard, and accidentally attacked him, and then i respawned outside in nektulos, and thats how i figured out to get out.

The point is--when you don't have a map, the community decides locations where to meet, and they start to talk amongst each other and be helpful. Also, as i said, you could purchase the maps later on so you would not be left totally in the dark, and perhaps they would have information about secret quests, or treasures, or something else..who knows.

I also appreciate the Darkfall shoutout, but i do not really think i would enjoy skyrim type combat in an MMO. I tried tera, and it was utterly mind numbing. I like the traditional MMO combat layout. Also, Skyrim combat was only improved by adding the shouts, and hotkeys anyway, which is why i wasn't upset (i realize i was probably the only one) when Elderscrolls Online was announced with traditional MMO controls...Also, the graphics are not amazing....

Honestly, I would probably still be playing vanguard if it had some sort of competitive PvP, and had been polished out of the gate. The game was great....i just remember leveling up my orc monk (awesome, right?) and i was zooming around in my player crafted ship (again!) and then i crashed through the world, and i was like under the ocean and in a colliseum or something at the same time--it made no sense (the game may have been slightly buggy).

I don't see why a game cannot have good graphics while still being Niche. I would call The Witcher niche, and it had very good textures, and graphics, and a very good story. While it was not my favorite game ever, it was very impressive. Yes, MMO's are a lot bigger, but still, given the resources, i think the niche could easily surpass 200k players. How many people played Everquest? Its still going isn't it?

Older gamers are much more likely to stick with a game that suits them. This is the reason why so many games are failing. They are building their business plan toward fickle youth who just want to play a game for a month then go on to the next great thing. There is no loyalty if a game is just rehashing WoW in a different skin.

GW2 is probably the greatest success in this vein, but i swear it is VERY similar to WoW, and people are just convincing themselves it is not because they are so desperate to find something new to play.

GW2 is too easy, too oversimplified, and very WoW like...They make everything too easy for the player, and there is nothing to hold them once you hit the max level.


This diatribe has gone on far too long. Thanks for listening to my ranting though, and i appreciate the constructive feedback.

Edit: I should also say, the MMO's i've played, or remember playing, in no particular order. Everquest, City of heroes, City of Villains, Everquest 2, World of Warcraft (And all expansions, though enjoyed each one less and less), Eve, Warhammer Online, Tera (Beta), GW2 (Beta), Lineage 2 (very briefly), Champions Online, Rift (Beta), FFXI, FFXIV (The crafting was good...and graphics, not much else..), Vanguard, SWTOR, Etc...i'm sure i'm missing one or two others...like earth and beyond...

Edit 2: The secret world...they just keep coming.

Edit 3: The original Guild Wars, All Points Bulletin: Reloaded, Global Agenda (kind of fun little game! Though not too heavy on the MMO part). I won't get into anymore of the Free to play games.
 
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GoodRevrnd

Diamond Member
Dec 27, 2001
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Now, Hardcore is one thing, looting everything you worked for because you were killed in PvP is masochistic, and if that happened to me i would undoubtedly throw a 1500 dollar computer out my window and punch a hole through my door, and cry myself to sleep in the fetal position.

I think people fall into a trap when they see full loot and panic. They imagine losing an entire set of gear that is "special" which they had to run some dungeon ten times to acquire each piece. Full loot games typically do not work this way. Baseline gear is usually fair to obtain and the best gear should only be 10-20% better, and it still is not as hard to obtain as a full set of PvE mmo raid gear. Furthermore, if PvP is the central focus of the game, everyone is losing gear; you win some, you lose some and hopefully in the end you're coming out ahead.