The Hammer is falling as the Insurrectionists are identified.

[Captante]

Yeah, that's a problem too. Almost like there should be something in between incarceration and 'absolutely nothing'.

One time I got in some trouble partying and trespassing at 15 ... long story short got 90 days probation AND 100 hours community service which turned out to be raking seaweed/litter off the town beach all day in the middle of August!

😱

It was AMAZING how careful I was to NOT ever do it again! 😛

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

One time I got in some trouble partying and trespassing at 15 ... long story short got 90 days probation AND 100 hours community service which turned out to be raking seaweed/litter off the town beach all day in the middle of August!

😱

It was AMAZING how careful I was to NOT ever do it again! 😛

I was accessory to murder of a planet's ecosystem. Not charged yet, but I'm pretty sure the prosecution is just building evidence.

 

[Zorba]

And yet the US continues to depend on mass incarceration in order to function at all.

Again, you think insurrectionist is the place to start talking criminal justice reform? Or do you just see a little bit of yourself in this guy?

This guy wanted to install a facist dictatorship, just like the "kids" in the SA and SS. I don't cry over pictures of them with nooses around their necks and I won't cry about this neo-nazi serving time. If you actually care about the number in prison in the US start a thread and we discuss real ways of changing that other than letting neo-nazis get off after attempting a coup.

 

[MtnMan]

I'd prefer to hear about what the 18 year old actually DID in the riot rather then read a laundry-list of charges based on him just being part of it.

As I said if he actually DID anything violent throw the book at him ... also I NEVER said he should be "let off".

What is hard to comprehend about "assault on a federal officer"? The details will be made clear to the jury during his trial, probably with photo's and video.

 

[Exterous]

Yes. At 18, a person SHOULD be able to make reasonable choices...after all...we allow them to vote And servemin the military...right?

Again, you think insurrectionist is the place to start talking criminal justice reform? Or do you just see a little bit of yourself in this guy?

This guy wanted to install a facist dictatorship, just like the "kids" in the SA and SS. I don't cry over pictures of them with nooses around their necks and I won't cry about this neo-nazi serving time. If you actually care about the number in prison in the US start a thread and we discuss real ways of changing that other than letting neo-nazis get off after attempting a coup.

I'll throw out there that even though an 18 year old is an adult - in this case my guess is that they've been being indoctrinated for the last 4.5 years (So since they were 13-14) with pro-Trump propaganda, are more akin to being brainwashed and I am not sure throwing them in the US prison system is a great way to unwind that. Seems more likely they'll fall in with hard core nazis or other extremists and become more of a problem for society down the road. That said we really don't have any great alternatives in the US so I wouldn't be too surprised if we have to pay for their federal room and board for a long time after their first stay

Personally I think there are a lot of problems with the US legal system including unnecessary jailing of non-violent offenders and that it preys on the poor. I also don't think that problems in one area of the justice system precludes us from talking about problems in others although I wouldn't choose to start reform here. And I am not against punishment just that I think our system is going to take this person and make them into a worse one (which you can say for a quite a few people)

 

[skyking]

I have to re-iterate how brave the indie reporters were, I suppose some people just blend in but the obvious press was getting trashed. The indies have provided the best evidence for chasing these seditionists down.

 

[Heartbreaker]

I'll throw out there that even though an 18 year old is an adult - in this case my guess is that they've been being indoctrinated for the last 4.5 years (So since they were 13-14) with pro-Trump propaganda, are more akin to being brainwashed and I am not sure throwing them in the US prison system is a great way to unwind that.

So how about 19, 20, 21, ... ?? If you don't like 18, what's your number where we start treating people like full adults?

What about older people? Over 60, many people have ventromedial prefrontal cortex deterioration, and this is what controls doubt and belief, and may be why seniors fall for scams more readily.

Maybe we meet somewhere in a safe middle zone, and only 30-49 years olds are considered fully responsible for their actions. Being old enough to be considered mature, but before they start getting more gullible. 🙄

I don't think we should get into too much hand wringing about ages of suspects, they span all ranges. Let the judges handle the discretionary part of sentencing when they have all the facts.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Apples... Trees...
Q-Shaman Mom defends her son on 60 minutes, repeats Election stolen conspiracy nonsense:

Mother of 'QAnon Shaman' Jacob Chansley defends her son, repeats election conspiracy theories

Ms Chansley refused to condemn her son breaching the building

www.independent.co.uk

Oh, and Q-Shaman jail interview was not approved, and improperly set up by his lawyer who told them he wanted to have a Zoom meeting with his client:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article249744998.html

“There’s no subterfuge here, at all. ... I did not under any circumstances try to conduct subterfuge to this court, certainly, and not to the facility where my client is currently housed,” Watkins said. “It’s just not my style.”

He did say the jail was told it was an “attorney-client interview video,” and that he did not tell them it was actually for a “60 Minutes” interview.

That kind of looks like subterfuge to me.

 

[Captante]

What is hard to comprehend about "assault on a federal officer"? The details will be made clear to the jury during his trial, probably with photo's and video.

Nothing at all about the charge itself ... however as anyone familiar with the US legal system will tell you being charged with something does not equal having done it.

I COULD come back "what's so hard to comprehend about that" but I think I'll pass.

The further we get from the election, the more I wonder what I'm even doing in this forum. You guys deserve each other in many ways!

 

[Captante]

Still...if an 18 year old can be sent to prison for 10-20 years for dealing drugs...it seems reasonable to do the same for participating in an insurrection.

THAT doesn't seem "reasonable" to me at all.

 

[Captante]

So how about 19, 20, 21, ... ?? If you don't like 18, what's your number where we start treating people like full adults?

What about older people? Over 60, many people have ventromedial prefrontal cortex deterioration, and this is what controls doubt and belief, and may be why seniors fall for scams more readily.

Maybe we meet somewhere in a safe middle zone, and only 30-49 years olds are considered fully responsible for their actions. Being old enough to be considered mature, but before they start getting more gullible. 🙄

🙄

Not at 18 for the vast majority I'll tell you that much.

Anyone who believes it does must either BE 18 themselves or have near-zero experience with actual 18 year olds.

The human brain does not fully mature until approx age 25 so that would be a reasonable if arbitrary number.

ILet the judges handle the discretionary part of sentencing when they have all the facts

On this I 100% agree. Mandatory sentencing and the like have been a travesty taking discretion out of the Judges hands.

 

[Zorba]

Trump appointee not getting bail, good.

Trump appointee charged for Jan. 6 assault ordered detained until trial

Federico Klein, who worked on the Trump campaign in 2016 before he joined the State Department, was arrested last week.

www.politico.com

 

[Captante]

But you would have shed at least one tear. Sorry but I think busting out the white privilege card has run its course.

Heck ... I'd even shed a tear for YOU under these circumstances! 😉


(ok maybe not)

 

[Exterous]

So how about 19, 20, 21, ... ?? If you don't like 18, what's your number where we start treating people like full adults?

We don't treat 18 year olds like full adults already - the drinking age is 21. Car insurance companies have realized that there is enough of an actuarial difference to warrant notalby increased rates until 25. Hell some rental companies won't rent to you if you're under 21. A 60 year old is much less likely to be further radicalized and, even if they were radicalized, the released 75-85 year old is less likely to do material harm.

Your judge comment doesn't really matter that much as the US federal system has very high recidivism rates so even 2 years is going to have better than 50% chance of further damage to someone or something somewhere in the country. But like I said earlier we never bothered to come up with any alternatives so we'll all pay for this in taxes too

 

[Lanyap]

Apples... Trees...
Q-Shaman Mom defends her son on 60 minutes, repeats Election stolen conspiracy nonsense:

Mother of 'QAnon Shaman' Jacob Chansley defends her son, repeats election conspiracy theories

Ms Chansley refused to condemn her son breaching the building

www.independent.co.uk

Oh, and Q-Shaman jail interview was not approved, and improperly set up by his lawyer who told them he wanted to have a Zoom meeting with his client:

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article249744998.html

That kind of looks like subterfuge to me.

She's pretty hot with the fake leopard skin pockets and collar and red and all.

LOL, she's nuts.

 

[feralkid]

Trump appointee not getting bail, good.

Trump appointee charged for Jan. 6 assault ordered detained until trial

Federico Klein, who worked on the Trump campaign in 2016 before he joined the State Department, was arrested last week.

www.politico.com

Bonk, bonk on the head, bonk bonk.

Also...

 

[MtnMan]

🙄

Not at 18 for the vast majority I'll tell you that much.

You were asked at what age someone should be held responsible for their actions.

So how about 19, 20, 21, ... ?? If you don't like 18, what's your number where we start treating people like full adults?

Based on your response it sounds like you think 25 is the "age of responsibility" and their criminal activity should be handled by the Juvenal courts? That would also mean they cannot enter in to legally binding contracts, get car loans, etc.

At 18 the military will gladly train you to go and kill for your country.

Anyone who believes it does must either BE 18 themselves or have near-zero experience with actual 18 year olds.

I wonder if you actually 'know' or have been around 18 year old's, and are just basing your opinion on a few, or social media or TV shows.

At 18 my grandson was a professional firefighter/EMT, with his CDL driving half-million dollar fire trucks, fighting fire and saving lives.

 

[MtnMan]

Nothing at all about the charge itself ... however as anyone familiar with the US legal system will tell you being charged with something does not equal having done it.

I COULD come back "what's so hard to comprehend about that" but I think I'll pass.

The further we get from the election, the more I wonder what I'm even doing in this forum. You guys deserve each other in many ways!

If you really wanted to know what this 18-year-old adult did, you could easily find that information on the internet. It' not hard to find, but since you won't/can't/didn't, I'll make an exception and point you in the direction.

I will warn you, it's going to take some reading on your part. I'll point you at the source of the information, informing yourself is solely on you. The good news is, there are lots of pictures to support these mysterious charges you seem to have a problem understanding. Enjoy..

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1365571/download

PS, please take the idle threat from your last sentence and make it a reality.

 

[Captante]

At 18 my grandson was a professional firefighter/EMT, with his CDL driving half-million dollar fire trucks, fighting fire and saving lives.

Congrats. He is however the exception not the rule.

I have 2 grown daughters and 3 nieces (16 thru 20) who I'm close to so I have extensive (and current) time spent around 18 year olds.

Both my grown daughters are healthy and successful but at 18 neither one was fully mature by any means and neither were any of their seeming multitude of friends.

 

[Captante]

please take the idle threat from your last sentence and make it a reality.

You need to get a hobby.

(this crap is what I meant about deserving each other on this forum)

 

[pmv]

Yeah, that's a problem too. Almost like there should be something in between incarceration and 'absolutely nothing'.

Or even, a substantially different social and economic arrangement that didn't lead to so many feeling the need or desire to commit crimes in the first place. Instead the US has gone for a system that _requires_ to have a very substantial proportion of the population imprisoned at any one time.

 

[pmv]

Bonk, bonk on the head, bonk bonk.

Also...

Apropos of nothing, that's the only episode of Star Trek I've seen in the last 20 years. Decided to watch some on Netflix as comfort-viewing during the lockdown, and randomly picked that one - which turns out to be about a pandemic caused by a deadly virus on a world exactly like Earth, that disproportionately killed older people but didn't kill the children and wipes out most of the world's adult population.

The Enterprise gang have to develop a 'vaccine' in record time (not really sure how they use a 'vaccine' as a cure for a disease...I put that down to script-writer scientific-illiteracy) . Wasn't as comforting as I'd expected.

 

[Zorba]

Congrats. He is however the exception not the rule.

I have 2 grown daughters and 3 nieces (16 thru 20) who I'm close to so I have extensive (and current) time spent around 18 year olds.

Both my grown daughters are healthy and successful but at 18 neither one was fully mature by any means and neither were any of their seeming multitude of friends.

I'd venture a guess that most people that commit violent crimes aren't "fully mature." Doesn't mean they can't understand right from wrong.

 

[dank69]

So how about 19, 20, 21, ... ?? If you don't like 18, what's your number where we start treating people like full adults?

...

It depends on the context. Voting? 18 is fine. Hell, make it 16 for all I care. Join military? 25 (and watch how much harder it will suddenly be to start wars of adventure). Smoking? 25. Alcohol is trickier, because it isn't nearly as addictive as smoking. As far as I know, Canada hasn't experienced major problems with the age of 18. Some cultures allow wine at dinner for kids even younger.

As for crime and punishment, it's always going to depend on the crime and how much danger the perp still poses. We try kids younger than 18 as adults all the time for serious crimes. Anyone brining the WoD into this is missing the mark though. All drugs should be legalized and regulated. All people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses should be released. This should not even be up for debate anymore.

This specific crime? If it were up to me, every single person that entered the building would have been charged with felony murder within 24 hours. Oh, and no death penalty, EVER, in any circumstance.

 

[Heartbreaker]

Congrats. He is however the exception not the rule.

I have 2 grown daughters and 3 nieces (16 thru 20) who I'm close to so I have extensive (and current) time spent around 18 year olds.

Both my grown daughters are healthy and successful but at 18 neither one was fully mature by any means and neither were any of their seeming multitude of friends.

I remember when I was a teenager, even at 15 everyone knew right from wrong, and was aware of consequences, and everyone was acutely aware that at 18, they were no longer considered juveniles and any stupid shit they did was on them as an adult. While stupid shit they did that got them into trouble before that, was a juvenile record, and sealed.

IMO, that alone is a strong argument against raising that age limit.

Heck, maybe we should lower it, and have the free pass go away sooner. 😉