The Hammer falls

[MotF Bane]

From the sounds of it he deserved to get nailed. Nobody should be above the law. I wish they went after every crooked politician that does stuff with a wink and a nod. I don't care what party they are in, if they're crooks and cheats, lock'em up. That might dissuade future ones from doing the same things.

To add to that, I'd like to see more of them get tried for treason, convicted, and hung. A better message.

 

[ProfJohn]

I doubt that he does any time since there is no victim to this crime and I don't believe you can make the claim that Delay benefited from his actions.

I would guess he gets house arrest and probation and perhaps a community service or something.

 

[hal2kilo]

I doubt that he does any time since there is no victim to this crime and I don't believe you can make the claim that Delay benefited from his actions.

I would guess he gets house arrest and probation and perhaps a community service or something.

No victim except democracy.

 

[ProfJohn]

No victim except democracy.

There are a LOT more dangerous things to democracy than Delay moving some money around to get around campaign finance laws.

Dodd getting a sweet heart home loan?
Kickbacks and pay offs used to pass the healthcare bill.
Million dollar earmarks used to 'buy' votes.
etc etc etc

The real problem isn't where they get the money from to get themselves elected, it is what they do with the tax payers money once they are elected.

 

[hal2kilo]

There are a LOT more dangerous things to democracy than Delay moving some money around to get around campaign finance laws.

Dodd getting a sweet heart home loan?
Kickbacks and pay offs used to pass the healthcare bill.
Million dollar earmarks used to 'buy' votes.
etc etc etc

The real problem isn't where they get the money from to get themselves elected, it is what they do with the tax payers money once they are elected.

Yea, Republicans use their slush funds much more honestly.

Are you for real?

 

[manimal]

with a name like DeLAY he should do well in prison..


my guess is they will call him frenchie and make him wear cutoff shorts like that guy from Conair..

 

[shira]

I doubt that he does any time since there is no victim to this crime and I don't believe you can make the claim that Delay benefited from his actions.

I would guess he gets house arrest and probation and perhaps a community service or something.

I believe the mandatory minimum sentence in Texas for conspiracy to launder money is two years, and the mandatory minimum for money laundering is five years.

 

[manimal]

There are a LOT more dangerous things to democracy than Delay moving some money around to get around campaign finance laws.

Dodd getting a sweet heart home loan?
Kickbacks and pay offs used to pass the healthcare bill.
Million dollar earmarks used to 'buy' votes.
etc etc etc

The real problem isn't where they get the money from to get themselves elected, it is what they do with the tax payers money once they are elected.

This post is GOLD!!!


whats so bad about moving some money around anyway... Abramoff was just being patriotic too...

 

[hal2kilo]

This post is GOLD!!!


whats so bad about moving some money around anyway... Abramoff was just being patriotic too...

It's the american way for a texas bug exterminator.

 

[Craig234]

I replied there that was nothing too compared to real theivry going on. Like revolving doors and almost zero interest rate loans for politically connected to pay themselves records bonuses on tax payers dime or straight up mortgage fraud and money laundering of drug cartel money (people who actual kill people) by our largest institutions with zero indictments to date as required. Party makes no diff punishment should fit the crime.

Zebo, you have a very twisted minimalist understanding of his crimes.

You do not appreciate the gravity of how much harm white-collar crime can do, nor the significance of corrupting the public trust.

The federal government is a very powerful institution, and when a leader of Congress is corrupted to use it for corrupt things, people can be hurt far worse than one beating.

I'm somewhat open to the argument 99 years is too much, I think I've heard of a country where the longest sentence for a crime is just under 20 years, and I think they have a point that any more is of questionable justice, outside of protecting the public from some people, but anyone who can be deterred by jail, is going to be with 20 years. But your comment of 6 months is asinine. It shows you do not appreciate the crime.

A murder, a beating, a robbery of one person is a terrible crime; a corruption in government that can hurt a thousand and betray millions is, too.

Besides the public interest being betrayed, you can also note the injustice that an uneducated kid who pulls a gun to make $50 - especially if the situation turns violent - can face decades in jail, while white collar criminals who steal millions get 'slap on the wrist' sentences because 'there was no violence'. That's not justice either - sort of the way crack cocaine had far longer sentences than the same amount of power cocaine.

DeLay's extent of corruption is pretty extreme. It was a pervasive, cycnical, criminal view that would make Al Capone blush with shame. I don't think you have almost any idea what figures like Jack Abramoff he'd enable - sell the government to - did. For just one example, for this 'it's just money' policy, there were horrible almost slave-like conditions from exploitave factory owners in the Marianas islands for thousands or young women; DeLay accepted paid family vacations and donations for his 'non-profits' from these owners, go there and give a speech that "You are a shining light for what is happening in the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we’re trying to do in America, in leading the world in the free-market system."

The story is here:
http://www.msmagazine.com/spring2006/paradise_full.asp

It doesn't begin to give the flavor of Abramoff's corruption, but a taste is here:

http://thinkprogress.org/abramoff/

You are an apologist for massive corruption, Zebo, not only preventing justice for huge wrongdoing, but also hurting our system by encouraging more with lax punishment.

When Congress was ready to vote overwhelmingly for reform in these sweat shops, DeLay kept his promise t the owners, largely Chinese businessmen exploiting the loophole for the 'made in the USA' tag in slave labor conditions, and single-handedly prevented the legislation from getting a vote (it passed almost or actually unanimously in the Senate).

He wasn't convicted of all the terrible, corrupt harms he did betraying the public trust, but his crimes are ones that are that betrayal, and they deserve serious punishment.

I watched a video of his speaking to a group of fundamentalist Christians, and he played the part of pretty much pastor with his self-righteous preaching.

If you see that, and contrast it to his organized crime, you better appreciate the nature of his behavior.

You are an accomplice of the corruption as long as you minimize and come close to praising it. We need more accountability for it, not more of it as you would cause.

In contrast, let's note a hero in Congress you more than likely have never heard of, Rep. George Miller.

He began to fight for these abused girls who never voted for him thousands of miles from his district, though his efforts were stopped cold from when Republicans took over the House in 1994, and the Republican chairman of the committee would refuse his requests for hearings, until Democrats captured the House in 2006.

The veteran Democratic congressman in 1992 held the first House hearing on sweatshop abuses in the Northern Mariana Islands, a U.S. commonwealth 5,700 miles from his hometown in Martinez.

Undeterred by the distance and time, he would spend the next 16 years fighting for island labor reforms, spurred by horrific stories of desperately poor people lured into indentured servitude, inhumane working and living conditions, rapes and forced abortions.

Miller introduced bills in six sessions of Congress, wrote letter after letter and made phone call after phone call.

But until Democrats took majority control of Congress in 2006, Miller's crusade amounted to little more than a ripple in the ocean.

Finally, President Bush signed legislation on May 8 that imposed U.S. labor and immigration laws on the chain of 14 islands in the Pacific Ocean north of Guam. Congress extended federal minimum wage standards to the islands in 2007.

"George (Miller) gave a damn about people who were all but invisible to most Americans," said Dennis Greenia, an avid blogger who works for a Washington, D.C.-based anti-sweatshop nonprofit group. "He is a hero among the workers there. They even named their movement after his bill, the Human Dignity Act."...

"Some fights, you just can't leave. Look, these people thought they were coming to America and, to me, it was about upholding American standards for human rights."

The Mariana Islands legislation over time devolved, as one of Miller's staffers put it, into a sordid version of "How a Bill Becomes Law."

Linked to bribery and corruption scandals, the tiny commonwealth has played an outsized role in the demise of the careers of convicted Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff, former Rep. Bob Ney, R-Ohio, and others.

Abramoff, a former lobbyist for the island government and its garment factory owners, used the Mariana Islands as part of a vast influence-peddling scheme to secure favorable legislation for his clients and to keep his friends well-funded and in power.

At the same time Abramoff raised campaign cash for Republican leaders and candidates, island textile companies and friendly local officials paid the lobbyist millions of dollars to quash reforms.

Abramoff pleaded guilty in 2006 to conspiracy and bribery of a member of Congress, among other charges...

Initially, the Marianas captured Miller's ire as a fair-trade question.

Garment manufacturing companies largely owned by Chinese businessmen opened plants there to take advantage of its status as a U.S. territory. The textile firms brought in thousands of foreign workers and shipped the clothing tariff and duty free into the United States with "Made in the USA" labels.

It gave the island companies a huge economic advantage over U.S. manufacturers, Miller said...

As chairman of then-titled Interior and Insular Affairs Committee, Miller sought reforms. But he lost his leadership post - and his ability to hold congressional hearings and put legislation up for votes - when the Republicans took majority control of Congress in 1994.

He didn't give up. He conducted his own investigation and traveled in 1998 to Saipan, the island capital.

It was a heartbreaking trip, Miller said.

The women were "humiliated to have to tell their stories of horrific abuse to a stranger," he said. "And the men were fearful, especially the Bangladeshis who had borrowed money from everyone in their villages to come to the Marianas and couldn't go back home."

Miller recounted, with a pained expression, how he toured a garment factory and saw the workers having a dinner break.

He learned that as soon as he left the plant, the company ordered everyone back to work, removed the food and kept everyone late to make up for the lost time.

"My visit actually hurt them," Miller said, shaking his head.

The congressman and his staff later that year produced a scathing report called "Beneath the American Flag: Labor and Human Rights Abuses in the CNMI (Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands)."

Abramoff's team billed the Mariana Islands government for dozens of hours spent countering what they called Miller's attacks on the commonwealth. Records show they researched Miller's campaign contributions, his California district and his association with labor unions.

After the U.S. Senate passed bipartisan Mariana Islands legislation in 2000 sponsored by former Sen. Frank Murkowski, R-Alaska, Miller said he approached Rep. Don Young of Alaska, then Republican chairman of the renamed House Resources Committee.

"I thought, 'I have it now, this is indisputable,'" Miller recalled. "But Young told me, 'It's never going to happen. It's above my pay grade.' I couldn't believe it."...

[After the bill was finally passed]

To celebrate the passage of the labor and immigration reform bills, Doromal gathered recently in Washington, D.C., with some of the many people who had a hand in the campaign.

"George Miller was our champion - he really cared, and what he did for us was very special," said Doromal, who called the congressman one of her heroes.

The group partied at the D'Acqua - a true Italian restaurant where the staff actually speaks Italian - on Pennsylvania Avenue halfway between the Capitol and White House.

Abramoff would remember the place.

When he owned it, he called it "Signatures," a swanky restaurant where Abramoff greased his powerful friendships in a rarefied atmosphere thousands of miles from the island sweatshops that would eventually help send him to prison.

 

[Craig234]

There are very real victims behind the corruption of these leaders.

Thousands of young girls who spent all their families had to move to the Marianas to work in America, and fine they were virtual slaves in Chinese-owned factories to exploit them with 20 hour days, rape and such, and the trade was made between these owners making big profits (at the expense of the American garmet industry, I might add, who were at a big disadvantage actually treating workers decently), paying millions for 'protection' from Congress, selling the suffering of these girls, in exchange for money for DeLay to increase his power and put other interests ahead of the public.

Victimless. The most ruthless street gang member in America would be embarrassed how his crimes pale in comparison to people like DeLay and Abramoff.

The American people who lacked representation, having had it replaced by the corrupt agendas of these organized crime leaders, were 'victims' as well.

 

[Nebor]

I wonder if Craig realizes that the average AT reader is a lot like the typical legislator: We're not going to read something that long. We're just going to glance at the title (poster) and make some assumptions.

Hey Craig, that heroic Rep. you're talking about is a registered sex offender due to some "indiscretions" with a minor in the early 90s.

 

[manimal]

I wonder if Craig realizes that the average AT reader is a lot like the typical legislator: We're not going to read something that long. We're just going to glance at the title (poster) and make some assumptions.

Hey Craig, that heroic Rep. you're talking about is a registered sex offender due to some "indiscretions" with a minor in the early 90s.

Some people actually enjoy reading... I today actually started reading this..


http://www.amazon.com/Edmund-Morriss.../dp/0812958632

makes a great stocking stuffer!!!

 

[Craig234]

I wonder if Craig realizes that the average AT reader is a lot like the typical legislator: We're not going to read something that long. We're just going to glance at the title (poster) and make some assumptions.

Hey Craig, that heroic Rep. you're talking about is a registered sex offender due to some "indiscretions" with a minor in the early 90s.

Actually, a lot of legislators - not all - do a lot better than you give them credit for. The whole 'read the bill' issue is a phony, gimmicky issue.

AT readers - well, sorry, I'd rather post the info and have you be responsible for not reading it.

I do compliment your honesty that you will not read it and make assumptions, if not your behavior.

A sex scandal doesn't necessarily say a thing about someone's work as a politician - take JFK - but post a link to the story you allege for Rep. Miller.

 

[manimal]

America is more worried about a president getting his pole smoked than politicians smoking the pole of big business....and taking money under the table to do it...so what if the politicians pays someone for sex...at least they are not promising the hookers favorable legislation..



the rest of the world just doesn't care who facks who and where.....


Take Barney Frank....sure hes weird and looks like a cartoon character and happens to be different...so what?

How much of the hatred towards him is because he is gay?

...waits for the but but hes a socialist responses...

 

[hal2kilo]

Actually, a lot of legislators - not all - do a lot better than you give them credit for. The whole 'read the bill' issue is a phony, gimmicky issue.

AT readers - well, sorry, I'd rather post the info and have you be responsible for not reading it.

I do compliment your honesty that you will not read it and make assumptions, if not your behavior.

A sex scandal doesn't necessarily say a thing about someone's work as a politician - take JFK - but post a link to the story you allege for Rep. Miller.

You can't go wrong with this info, keep up the good fight . Notice the lack of personal attacks. Been wasting my time "conversing" with Nick "the younger".
Delay was the ultimate scumbag that sock puppets like the Prof will never get a clue about. He and his kind are the real danger to democracy.

It's unfortunate that it does take a wall of text of real information, not Pjabber, and Panus walls of text to cover his crimes.

 

[Craig234]

You can't go wrong with this info, keep up the good fight . Notice the lack of personal attacks. Been wasting my time "conversing" with Nick "the younger".
Delay was the ultimate scumbag that sock puppets like the Prof will never get a clue about. He and his kind are the real danger to democracy.

It's unfortunate that it does take a wall of text of real information, not Pjabber, and Panus walls of text to cover his crimes.

Thanks. Sadly, "the big lie" technique works great with a single sentence.

Saying things to minimize what he did, to suggest it was no big deal that they all do, that 'six months' would be the most it deserves - all easily fit in a sentence.

To appreciate the terrible crimes, which I barely touched on, requires a lot more information to counter 'the big lie'.

But it's only when people are informed the big lie is defeated.

DeLay should be viewed by America as a much worse villain than Benedict Arnold - but our partisan protectors of him can prevent that.

It's the same every time - Richard Nixon was the 'victim' of liberal attacks to some.

The question is which version of history is accepted - some villains get more justice, others not to much.

For example, Ford seems likely to be the 'highly principled and honest' president who bumbled a bit, rather than the one who, with Kissenger at his side, secretly and illegally approved Indonesia to launch an immoral aggressive war against their neighbor, East Timor, killing 250,000, using US-provided weapons Congress had restricted to defensive use only, in exchange for policies benefiting us.

 

[Double Trouble]

Hey Craig, that heroic Rep. you're talking about is a registered sex offender due to some "indiscretions" with a minor in the early 90s.

I don't remember seeing anything about any scandal with Miller, but given the general scum we have in Congress it certainly would not be out of the ordinary.

 

[dawp]

It's to bad that this didn't come to trial before the 2010 election cycle.
This trial was deliberatly put off until after the elections to benefit the GOP.

Austin is a very liberal city. It was DeLay the did the delaying

 

[GroundedSailor]

Ridiculous time either way. Not even a violent crime which you get less for I might add. I think average murderer does like 10. You can beat someone till they have tubes coming out of their face in hospital and do less than 1 year. 99 years? gimme a break. I hope he gets 6 mo.

Delay is a crook who exhibits no remorse for his crimes.

I hope they throw away the key.

X2

But I doubt that will happen. He may spend some time in jail but I don't think it will be much.

..

 

[MotF Bane]

America is more worried about a president getting his pole smoked than politicians smoking the pole of big business....and taking money under the table to do it...so what if the politicians pays someone for sex...at least they are not promising the hookers favorable legislation..



the rest of the world just doesn't care who facks who and where.....


Take Barney Frank....sure hes weird and looks like a cartoon character and happens to be different...so what?

How much of the hatred towards him is because he is gay?

...waits for the but but hes a socialist responses...

I don't like Frank, he's a complete fucking idiot, but I didn't even know his orientation until you said it just now. How's that?

 

[Zebo]

Zebo, you have a very twisted minimalist understanding of his crimes.

You do not appreciate the gravity of how much harm white-collar crime can do, nor the significance of corrupting the public trust.

The federal government is a very powerful institution, and when a leader of Congress is corrupted to use it for corrupt things, people can be hurt far worse than one beating.

I'm somewhat open to the argument 99 years is too much, I think I've heard of a country where the longest sentence for a crime is just under 20 years, and I think they have a point that any more is of questionable justice, outside of protecting the public from some people, but anyone who can be deterred by jail, is going to be with 20 years. But your comment of 6 months is asinine. It shows you do not appreciate the crime.

A murder, a beating, a robbery of one person is a terrible crime; a corruption in government that can hurt a thousand and betray millions is, too.

Besides the public interest being betrayed, you can also note the injustice that an uneducated kid who pulls a gun to make $50 - especially if the situation turns violent - can face decades in jail, while white collar criminals who steal millions get 'slap on the wrist' sentences because 'there was no violence'. That's not justice either - sort of the way crack cocaine had far longer sentences than the same amount of power cocaine.

DeLay's extent of corruption is pretty extreme. It was a pervasive, cycnical, criminal view that would make Al Capone blush with shame. I don't think you have almost any idea what figures like Jack Abramoff he'd enable - sell the government to - did. For just one example, for this 'it's just money' policy, there were horrible almost slave-like conditions from exploitave factory owners in the Marianas islands for thousands or young women; DeLay accepted paid family vacations and donations for his 'non-profits' from these owners, go there and give a speech that "You are a shining light for what is happening in the Republican Party, and you represent everything that is good about what we’re trying to do in America, in leading the world in the free-market system."

The story is here:
http://www.msmagazine.com/spring2006/paradise_full.asp

It doesn't begin to give the flavor of Abramoff's corruption, but a taste is here:

http://thinkprogress.org/abramoff/

You are an apologist for massive corruption, Zebo, not only preventing justice for huge wrongdoing, but also hurting our system by encouraging more with lax punishment.

When Congress was ready to vote overwhelmingly for reform in these sweat shops, DeLay kept his promise t the owners, largely Chinese businessmen exploiting the loophole for the 'made in the USA' tag in slave labor conditions, and single-handedly prevented the legislation from getting a vote (it passed almost or actually unanimously in the Senate).

He wasn't convicted of all the terrible, corrupt harms he did betraying the public trust, but his crimes are ones that are that betrayal, and they deserve serious punishment.

I watched a video of his speaking to a group of fundamentalist Christians, and he played the part of pretty much pastor with his self-righteous preaching.

If you see that, and contrast it to his organized crime, you better appreciate the nature of his behavior.

You are an accomplice of the corruption as long as you minimize and come close to praising it. We need more accountability for it, not more of it as you would cause.

In contrast, let's note a hero in Congress you more than likely have never heard of, Rep. George Miller.

He began to fight for these abused girls who never voted for him thousands of miles from his district, though his efforts were stopped cold from when Republicans took over the House in 1994, and the Republican chairman of the committee would refuse his requests for hearings, until Democrats captured the House in 2006.

I read the whole thing and link.
1) he was not on trial for selling women into slavery. Indict him on that and I'm all over it.
2) He was on trial for funneling campaign monies wrongly. Basically a victimless crime when you consider recent SC ruling. Donars still wanted to give just couldn't way law is set up.
3) Thats nothing, a few hundred thou $, low hanging fruit, a political diversion and distraction, compared to what guys who wrecked our economy pocketed billions and are still wrecking it with fraud, racketeering and laundering and getting rewarded instead of prosecuted.
I have more links like drug cartels laundering billions through our largest banks and Feds don't do shit. Or quid pro quo that happens when you appoint a former monsanto exec as FDA administrator or Former BP exec who then regulates deep water drilling or how rich a Homeland Security head is getting selling cancer making worthless scanners to TSA.

But here is a catalog of real fraud if you're interested. Which none seems to be.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=170138

 

[Craig234]

I read the whole thing and link.

That's good, but it seems I wasted my time.

1) he was not on trial for selling women into slavery. Indict him on that and I'm all over it.

First, there are two issues here. One is 'what he did wrong' regardless of whether he's criminally convicted for it, the other is the appropriate sentence for his conviction.

You sound like his corrupt brother the way you minimize and avoid his wrongdoing - in fact I don't see much from you acknowledging any serious wrongdoing.

You use the cheap rhetorical technique of the straw man to change - in just one example of his corrupt selling out of human misery of thousands for campaign cash - by changing his role from what it was, taking the money n exchange for blocking legal reform in one of the clearest examples of immoral corruption in our history, and this is just one of his many wrongs - into an issue of was he the one 'selling the women into slavery', and whether he was criminally convicted of that, not was it wrong.

Your response is not to acknowledge any wrong, but only deny and mis-frame the issue to protect him.

2) He was on trial for funneling campaign monies wrongly. Basically a victimless crime when you consider recent SC ruling. Donars still wanted to give just couldn't way law is set up.

His wrongs were much more than that, such as the abuse of non-profits - it was basically an organized crime ring selling 'protection' for money, breaking the law.

Even today, the law prohibits any of these donors from coordinating with the campaign, from getting anything in exchange for their donations.

That's why the money has to go to an independent third party group who has no agreements with the campaign.

You again understate the huge wrongs he did.

Just one bit of the picture again is to look at how close he was with Jack Abramoff's schemes, for many years major corruption in our government through him; for one example, his setting up of a 'charity' non-profits used to launder money, where less than one percent of the funds went for the charity's stated cause, instead going to his pet projects.

The operation of our Congress on a variety of issues was harmed by his activities, which included his power in all kinds of committee assignments and more.

3) Thats nothing, low hanging fruit, a political diversion and distraction, compared to what guys who wrecked our economy pocketed billions and are still wrecking it with fraud, racketeering and laundering and getting rewarded instead of prosecuted.

That's a ridiculous argument. First, it's wrong. His wrongs were huge - you again misrepresent them.

Second, Hitler did worse - killed millions of people. You don't defend someone by saying 'there was some other worse crime someone has done'.

And oh by the way, during the period the Congress was not regulating enough to do its proper role to prevent those economic criminals: ya, DeLay was in power.

He was busy on his corrupt schemes, not good government. Even your ridiculous defense of him just adds to his wrongs.

I have more links like drug cartels laundering billions through our largest banks. Or quid pro quo that happens when you appoint a former monsanto exec as FDA administrator or Former BP exec who then regulates deep water drilling or how rich a Homeland Security head is getting selling cancer making worthless scanners to TSA.

But here is a catalog of real fraud if you're interested.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=170138

I'd like to see you in a murder trial defend the guy by listing other murders. 'This guy was nothing, no torture or suffering - his crimes pale to this other guy!''

You are clearly not going to 'get' DeLay's crimes, so any further discussion of the issue seems pointless to me.

It doesn't matter how much you are told, you ignore it. You have not changed your position that someone who beats someone up for money is worse than DeLay's crimes.

You have a very misguided view of this issue that supports corrupt government. If more people had your views, we'd live in massive corruption far more than we do.

Your cynicism about government prevents good government, except that luckily few have your problem on this.

People with decent morals will celebrate the end of this massive corruption to our government, while you can clean your guns awaiting the survivalist fantasy.

I'll repeat the sentence I began the first post with, it's the same after all this.

Zebo, you have a very twisted minimalist understanding of his crimes.

 

[Lemon law]

I agree with Craig234 who is doing a good job summing it up. But now that the jury voted to convict, next up is sentencing hearing on 12/20/2010. Delay has opted to leave the sentence up to the judge and not the jury, meanwhile his conviction is already on appeal, and from the various links I have read, very few people in the legal community think its likely that Delay will spend a minute behind bars, in even a worse case scenario, for at least a few years.

Even though its my understanding that the Judge could impose some sentense, order Delay to jail, and let him appeal his head off from inside a jail cell. Happens all the time with ordinary criminals, but the rich and formerly powerful are a special class of criminals.

Dare we hope, like Ken Lay before him, that Delay will die of natiral causes while his case is on appeal, and in so doing, will die an innocent man in the eyes of the law.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

You can't go wrong with this info, keep up the good fight . Notice the lack of personal attacks. Been wasting my time "conversing" with Nick "the younger".
Delay was the ultimate scumbag that sock puppets like the Prof will never get a clue about. He and his kind are the real danger to democracy.

It's unfortunate that it does take a wall of text of real information, not Pjabber, and Panus walls of text to cover his crimes.

There is no point discussing with nick the younger, lol. Any disagreement will be met with total outrage and personal attacks/insults. He's a typical kid, when we feels insecure, he goes for the 4-letter words and slurs right off the bat. He has anger management issues. At least pjblabber and others don't start cursing everyone out right off that bat.