The 'Guns? Who needs guns?' Thread

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ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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That takes me to the top of page 4 of that thread. After reading the posts visible, nobody is advocating gun grabbing, nobody is calling anyone crazy and nobody is calling anyone a conservative. I see someone calling people a part of the problem when people characterize the left's position as wanting to stop every single gun incident or that nothing can be done.

First piece of evidence that you are mischaracterizing what is actually happening. Thank you for that. Do you want to give me a more specific post, since I didn't scroll down to see if what you claim happened actually happened somewhere on that page? Or do you want to find another example?

Keep reading - it's on that page, if you don't want to read, don't ask for examples. I don't have that kind of time to scour every post looking. It's pretty obvious when you get there, and yes, that is just one example. As I don't go around like a SJW looking for people doing such things, I only remark related to responses to what I say.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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The what ifs are you proposing the hypothetical of "gun grabbing" and the fallout.

We both blame the person, or in this examples case....two people it took to kill someone else with a cord.

Also, I live in MA, and I don't know a single person that wants to ban all guns.

You know at least 2 on this forum as they are very vocal about it. Hell, in the thread I posted it's not denied by anyone. I'm sure they'll speak up soon, or they won't to try to pretend they don't. The reality is exactly this, even if you personally aren't calling for it.

Either way, this thread isn't even about debating that, simply a means to open some eyes to the bigger picture.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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You know at least 2 on this forum as they are very vocal about it. I'm sure they'll speak up soon, or they won't to try to pretend they don't.
I think you are misinterpreting what Shane was saying on that page. He called you a gun-nutter because you used "gun-nutter logic" and when you corrected him and said you don't even own a gun he acknowledged that "you don't have to be a gun-nutter to use gun-nutter logic."

What you actually need to understand is that the goal isn't to stop every gun injury or gun death. That is the idiocy that will trigger harsh response from your critics. It's fucking stupid and until you stop saying it people are going to tear into you. It's just as bad as someone calling you a conservative because you don't want to ban all guns, which I am still positive has not happened here. Banning all guns is not a mainstream leftist position. Many leftists like guns, own guns and/or acknowledge the right to own guns. Yet Americans on the right and in the middle are convinced that leftists and Democrats want to ban all guns. We are sick of it. Do you like being characterized as a conservative? If not, then start by not mischaracterizing the left.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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I think you are misinterpreting what Shane was saying on that page. He called you a gun-nutter because you used "gun-nutter logic" and when you corrected him and said you don't even own a gun he acknowledged that "you don't have to be a gun-nutter to use gun-nutter logic."

What you actually need to understand is that the goal isn't to stop every gun injury or gun death. That is the idiocy that will trigger harsh response from your critics. It's fucking stupid and until you stop saying it people are going to tear into you. It's just as bad as someone calling you a conservative because you don't want to ban all guns, which I am still positive has not happened here. Banning all guns is not a mainstream leftist position. Many leftists like guns, own guns and/or acknowledge the right to own guns. Yet Americans on the right and in the middle are convinced that leftists and Democrats want to ban all guns. We are sick of it. Do you like being characterized as a conservative? If not, then start by not mischaracterizing the left.

Again the distinction is that the lefts and the further lefts are not the same people and do not have the same goals. I lean left on most things. The moderate(?) lefts are not who we're talking about here. If it doesn't pertain to you then it isn't about you. I flat out called them out on it in that very thread, and no one denied it. In fact someone said 'well there's no other solution that works'.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Again the distinction is that the lefts and the further lefts are not the same people and do not have the same goals. I lean left on most things. The moderate(?) lefts are not who we're talking about here. If it doesn't pertain to you then it isn't about you. I flat out called them out on it in that very thread, and no one denied it. In fact someone said 'well there's no other solution that works'.
Again, you are misinterpreting what Shane said. He was responding sarcastically to the claims that nothing else the left is actually proposing will work. He called it a self-fulfilling prophecy because people who block the sensible changes are basically forcing the issue to get worse until people eventually just want to ban all guns. Thus fulfilling the prophecy that the left wants to ban all guns. And all your objections to the common sense regulations are based on the fallacy that if it doesn't stop all gun incidents then it isn't worth doing.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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Again, you are misinterpreting what Shane said. He was responding sarcastically to the claims that nothing else the left is actually proposing will work. He called it a self-fulfilling prophecy because people who block the sensible changes are basically forcing the issue to get worse until people eventually just want to ban all guns. Thus fulfilling the prophecy that the left wants to ban all guns. And all your objections to the common sense regulations are based on the fallacy that if it doesn't stop all gun incidents then it isn't worth doing.

You and they are misinterpreting what I'm saying then. Seems to be a common theme unless it's an eaco chamber. Probably why nothing ever gets done. Once again, I'm not anti - gun regulation, I'm just being realistic about the results, and what it ultimately means. I think many of you are not.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
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You know at least 2 on this forum as they are very vocal about it. Hell, in the thread I posted it's not denied by anyone. I'm sure they'll speak up soon, or they won't to try to pretend they don't. The reality is exactly this, even if you personally aren't calling for it.

Either way, this thread isn't even about debating that, simply a means to open some eyes to the bigger picture.

What bigger picture? That it took two women to lure and kill one woman?

Please, this is just sad.

Besides, we should be talking about smoking.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Puzzled why the perps in the OP didn't use 'passive smoking' as their method.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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You and they are misinterpreting what I'm saying then. Seems to be a common theme unless it's an eaco chamber. Probably why nothing ever gets done. Once again, I'm not anti - gun regulation, I'm just being realistic about the results, and what it ultimately means. I think many of you are not.


What is the point of your first post supposed to be? "Not every murder is committed with a firearm"? OK, I think everyone already knows that. So what's the point of your posting that story?

(I didn't click on it - is it a recent one? Because I remember a story exactly like it from decades ago...I think that was in Chicago as well).
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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You and they are misinterpreting what I'm saying then. Seems to be a common theme unless it's an eaco chamber. Probably why nothing ever gets done. Once again, I'm not anti - gun regulation, I'm just being realistic about the results, and what it ultimately means. I think many of you are not.
I'm not interpreting anything. You clearly said (regarding gun control):
There's a lot more to the problem than a surplus of guns. People get creative. What might slow down is immediate 'temporary insanity' murder/suicides because of time passing, but I expect what will mostly happen is just people dying differently, not less.
The bolded is contrary to every legitimate study ever done on the subject. To put it bluntly, it's fucking nonsense, and you should be ashamed for saying such a stupid thing. You then offer up a couple of examples:
Without search and seizure you can't control what gun owners do with their guns (meaning parents owning guns and their kids taking them). Stricter background checks don't seem to do any good because people can snap at any time.
The first is blatantly false because we could implement harsher sentences for people when their guns fall into kids' hands whether or not someone actually gets hurt because of it. For example, first offense and you are never allowed to own a gun again. No exceptions. The second implicitly invokes the fallacy I mentioned because although background checks can't catch people who suddenly snap, there are plenty of documented instances of people with a history of mental illness obtaining firearms.

That is just from one post. I could go on about the other nonsense that boils down to "young whippersnappers" and "bad parenting" that is all just a bunch of bullshit, and I'm sure there is plenty more but I think I've made my point.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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What is the point of your first post supposed to be? "Not every murder is committed with a firearm"? OK, I think everyone already knows that. So what's the point of your posting that story?

(I didn't click on it - is it a recent one? Because I remember a story exactly like it from decades ago...I think that was in Chicago as well).

It's from yesterday, and I posted it because it is messed up. I posted it in P&N because, well...it was likely to get moved here anyway, so figured why not a running thread.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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I'm not interpreting anything. You clearly said (regarding gun control):The bolded is contrary to every legitimate study ever done on the subject. To put it bluntly, it's fucking nonsense, and you should be ashamed for saying such a stupid thing. You then offer up a couple of examples:The first is blatantly false because we could implement harsher sentences for people when their guns fall into kids' hands whether or not someone actually gets hurt because of it. For example, first offense and you are never allowed to own a gun again. No exceptions. The second implicitly invokes the fallacy I mentioned because although background checks can't catch people who suddenly snap, there are plenty of documented instances of people with a history of mental illness obtaining firearms.

That is just from one post. I could go on about the other nonsense that boils down to "young whippersnappers" and "bad parenting" that is all just a bunch of bullshit, and I'm sure there is plenty more but I think I've made my point.

Harsher punishments have never stopped anything or are you ignoring the people on death row? All those complaints about the oppression of weed smokers? Funny, I don't recall EVER being worried about them since I don't do it but it is certainly front and center on many of your minds (because it's just a plant dammit!). I'm all for the things you are stating, but in the end, it still won't stop what people fear the most. People break laws. People kill people. If you want to take that as 'omg he's anti gun regulation' then so be it.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Harsher punishments have never stopped anything or are you ignoring the people on death row? All those complaints about the oppression of weed smokers? Funny, I don't recall EVER being worried about them since I don't do it but it is certainly front and center on many of your minds (because it's just a plant dammit!).
Removing their right to own a gun after a first offense will reduce the possibility that one of their guns will fall into the hands of a child. I'm not looking to punish, I'm looking to prevent. That is what laws should do. Now, I said "And all your objections to the common sense regulations are based on the fallacy that if it doesn't stop all gun incidents then it isn't worth doing" and you called that a misinterpretation. Now you just said this:

I'm all for the things you are stating, but in the end, it still won't stop what people fear the most. People break laws. People kill people. If you want to take that as 'omg he's anti gun regulation' then so be it.
"I'm all for [it] but it won't stop people killing people." Why would you be for a regulation you think will do nothing? You would not be, so obviously you acknowledge it will do something, you just want to state that it won't stop every case. Well guess what? Nobody has ever claimed it will stop every case. When you argue with imaginary people, others are going to assume you are insane.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Again the distinction is that the lefts and the further lefts are not the same people and do not have the same goals. I lean left on most things. The moderate(?) lefts are not who we're talking about here. If it doesn't pertain to you then it isn't about you. I flat out called them out on it in that very thread, and no one denied it. In fact someone said 'well there's no other solution that works'.


The far left tend to be pro-gun. They think they will need them to kill Nazis/overthow capitalism. The moderate left tend to be the ones who favour restrictions.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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"I'm all for [it] but it won't stop people killing people." Why would you be for a regulation you think will do nothing? You would not be, so obviously you acknowledge it will do something, you just want to state that it won't stop every case. Well guess what? Nobody has ever claimed it will stop every case.

This is a fair assumption, but it's more of a "i agree something needs to happen". I just don't agree on what that something is or what the outcomes will be because I do not believe the tools cause the problem. We've well established 'no one thinks it will stop everything'.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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It's from yesterday, and I posted it because it is messed up. I posted it in P&N because, well...it was likely to get moved here anyway, so figured why not a running thread.


Strange that it's so similar to the case that stuck in my mind from literally decades ago. Wonder if it actually happens regularly, or if these are the only two occasions?

In any case, it has no bearing on the gun-control argument.

Claiming that people have some fixed likelihood of killing that will stay the same no matter what the context is just silly. It's not born out by any real-world data.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
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The far left tend to be pro-gun. They think they will need them to kill Nazis/overthow capitalism. The moderate left tend to be the ones who favour restrictions.

That's an interesting take, the ones I've noticed tend to be the ones who lean far left...or at least appear to. I could be wrong. I just know that anytime I say anything that slightly could be construed as conservative out come the attacks.
 

ImpulsE69

Lifer
Jan 8, 2010
14,946
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Strange that it's so similar to the case that stuck in my mind from literally decades ago. Wonder if it actually happens regularly, or if these are the only two occasions?

In any case, it has no bearing on the gun-control argument.

Claiming that people have some fixed likelihood of killing that will stay the same no matter what the context is just silly. It's not born out by any real-world data.

whether it has bearing is up to the reader. Obviously it triggered some since the entire thread has devolved into that discussion. As for real world data, look at the statistics of 'non gun deaths' in the countries that banned guns. While yes, overall deaths are down, non-gun deaths are up considerably. In the US however, gun deaths are down (unless you include suicide). I did make a caveat for suicide in the NRA thread since those cases are not the same mentality as murder in many cases.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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That's an interesting take, the ones I've noticed tend to be the ones who lean far left...or at least appear to. I could be wrong. I just know that anytime I say anything that slightly could be construed as conservative out come the attacks.
The problem is that today, right now, conservatives do not hold any positions that are backed by evidence. So when you echo something that could be construed as conservative, you are by definition echoing illogical nonsense, and on this forum, you are going to get eviscerated whenever you do that. Be happy that people are giving you then benefit of the doubt that you are merely blinded by conservative ideology, because the alternative is that you are just stupid/gullible/ignorant with no real excuse.
whether it has bearing is up to the reader. Obviously it triggered some since the entire thread has devolved into that discussion.
You took a situation that does not involve guns and tied it to the gun issue with your title. There is no way you didn't think this is exactly how the thread would turn out so please spare us the "who, me?" routine.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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That's an interesting take, the ones I've noticed tend to be the ones who lean far left...or at least appear to. I could be wrong. I just know that anytime I say anything that slightly could be construed as conservative out come the attacks.


I recall an interview with some ultra-left (mostly black) small US sect that was very anti-gun-control because they thought it disregarded the need of black people to protect themselves from the police, for example. And I can't help noticing how fond those Antifa guys are of posing with guns.

Heck, I get the impression, perhaps wrongly, that even a moderate-left like Sanders is not as pro-gun-control as a full-on liberal like Clinton.

Me, I'm not a far-leftist, so I'm pro-gun-control. I'm very glad we don't have US style gun ownership here, because it seems to me that once you let it get started it becomes self-sustaining and self-reinforcing. People become attached to their lethal devices, the criminals arm themselves as a matter of course, and then the cops have to be armed, and then the populace feels even more that they have to be armed...

Though I do sometimes find myself thinking "it's not guns that kill people, it's economic inequality". And I do think there is a tension between favouring gun-control and noticing how appallingly cops can behave.

Getting out of the hole once you are in it seems quite hard.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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. As for real world data, look at the statistics of 'non gun deaths' in the countries that banned guns. While yes, overall deaths are down, non-gun deaths are up considerably. In the US however, gun deaths are down (unless you include suicide)..

You're going to need to link to those statistics. As far as I know gun deaths are only 'down' in the US insofar as the US follows the same trend as the whole developed world, in that violent crimes and murder hit a peak during the '90s, not just in the US but almost everywhere.

I mean, even here everyone is getting agitated about stabbings in London, but the London murder rate is not particularly high, it's lower than it was in the '90s - just as in most Western countries.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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This is a fair assumption, but it's more of a "i agree something needs to happen". I just don't agree on what that something is or what the outcomes will be because I do not believe the tools cause the problem. We've well established 'no one thinks it will stop everything'.

I guess here we have to ask, what do you think the problem is?
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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The far left tend to be pro-gun. They think they will need them to kill Nazis/overthow capitalism. The moderate left tend to be the ones who favour restrictions.

There are certainly some far left groups that are pro-gun, you will always have some that think violence is the answer, but the vast majority of the far left are pacifists.