MrK6
Diamond Member
- Aug 9, 2004
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Really? What's the name of Intel's flagship that directly competes with AMD's 7970 or nvidia's Titan? I forget...
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DooKey
Golden Member
- Nov 9, 2005
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LOL, are you honestly saying a duopoly results if only 2 companies make a certain level of GPU? Please take that to court. LOL.
Why is it so many people confuse the free market with "corporations can do whatever they want." Here's a hint. Corporations can charge whatever they want for a product. On the other side of that coin, consumers are free to say whatever they want about those prices, and at retail, they are free to purchase them or not.
In your eyes, the Titan's value was a grand, because if it wasn't, you wouldn't have bought it. In your eyes, the 780 may be worth $700. In my eyes (and indeed, the eyes of large number of people) it is not. I am free to not purchase it at that price, which I won't. I am also free to discuss the price with my fellow enthusiasts. I am free to attempt to influence others with my thoughts on the price. A great deal of demand is based on perception. As an enthusiast, I, as I am sure most of you, am often consulted by my friends and peers with regards to computer purchases. When they ask me if they should pay that much for a 780, what do you think I will tell them? Consumers have more power than you think, and corporations know it.
socialdarwinist
Member
- May 14, 2013
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If two companies make battleships and another company produces rowboats, is that not a duopoly either? Certainly, they are both seafaring vessels, are they not?
Regardless, even if you were to consider Intel's onboard graphics as a substitute, you'd simply have an oligopoly, in which one of the three companies of the oligopoly don't compete on price or product with the other two (i.e. mid- to high-end graphics cards).
DooKey
Golden Member
- Nov 9, 2005
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Tell them what you want. I tell most of my friends not to purchase a Titan or a 780 because they can't afford it or they aren't video card junkies like me. What you and others don't realize is NV, and AMD to a certain extent, over the last year expanded the price range of the discrete video card pmarket. Both companies offer products across that range.
The mass market isn't in the $300-$350 and above range. As long as both companies do well below that range they will prosper. NV and AMD could care less what you say or do as long as they make money at the level they are projecting to their shareholders. If they start to lose business based upon their pricing they will adjust. Until then you vote with your wallet. If you close your wallet and they don't change prices then too bad for you and others, buy something else.
If NV holds the price at release price for most of the life of 780 and Titan I would say your opinion of what is "a large number of people" regarding the disagreement on their price is wrong. Don't confuse the enthusiast community with the overall PC gaming community.
Oh, I'm sorry, are we talking about the mass market? Because you may be in the wrong thread. What we're talking about right now is the pricing on a high end, enthusiast targeted video card.
I hope nVidia prospers. I really do. Maybe not as much as you seem to, but whatever. I think they make great products. And I can afford the 780 at $700. Hell, I could afford four Titans. But you know what? I don't think they are worth the price, so I'm not paying it. If I close my wallet and they don't change their prices, you're right, too bad for me. I'll live. But if lots of people do it then it becomes too bad for them. I don't really see how this notion is offensive.
This isn't an emotional decision for me. Its a product I want. I'm a video card junkie and I can afford it, but its either worth the price they are asking or it isn't, and each individual consumer makes their own vaue determination. That's how the market works.
socialdarwinist
Member
- May 14, 2013
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I think this is the point entirely - it is unfortunate that there are not more video card manufacturers because there is certainly a portion of the market willing to buy high end video cards for slightly lower prices. It doesn't make AMD or Nvidia "evil" that they don't lower their prices and it is certainly their call on what to price their cards at. Still, it would be nice to see another company come in to challenge high end cards on pricing. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but a nice dream nonetheless.
-just saying [rambling really]
I think this time around people are charged a R & D low volume surcharge to buy a 7 billion tranny chip vs higher volume 3.5 B chip. [680-670]
-no one seems to know yields / cost per wafer , someone mention $350 for the card.. could be $800.00 with LOW volume R&D thrown into the mix.[if pro sales were not in the costing avg.]
-it's nice that it's out there for people that want the best and can pay the price or needed it for multi monitors.
-also we might not see a titan killer for what 18 months , 12 b- 14 billion ????? trannys on 20nm for the pro line.
-first consumer cards on 20nm could be like 580 vs 680 , so 680 + 20-30% faster = gtx 780 a year from now @ $500.00 ish.
-just might take some getting use to that you can't buy the top end card for the left over cash from your weekly pay .
I think this time around people are charged a R & D low volume surcharge to buy a 7 billion tranny chip vs higher volume 3.5 B chip. [680-670]
-no one seems to know yields / cost per wafer , someone mention $350 for the card.. could be $800.00 with LOW volume R&D thrown into the mix.[if pro sales were not in the costing avg.]
-it's nice that it's out there for people that want the best and can pay the price or needed it for multi monitors.
-also we might not see a titan killer for what 18 months , 12 b- 14 billion ????? trannys on 20nm for the pro line.
-first consumer cards on 20nm could be like 580 vs 680 , so 680 + 20-30% faster = gtx 780 a year from now @ $500.00 ish.
-just might take some getting use to that you can't buy the top end card for the left over cash from your weekly pay .
Grooveriding
Diamond Member
- Dec 25, 2008
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Safe bet that is the new reality. 20nm gtx880 that is $500 and 20-30% faster than the Titan.
socialdarwinist
Member
- May 14, 2013
- 36
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- 0
Can we go ahead and fast forward to that point? My triple monitor setup is crying for video cards that seem harshly overpriced for their performance.
Grooveriding
Diamond Member
- Dec 25, 2008
- 9,147
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Well you could also wait for the Titan2 on 20nm, 70+% faster than Titan for $1000 :awe:
socialdarwinist
Member
- May 14, 2013
- 36
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Yeah something tells me there's always going to be that pie in the sky...maybe not possible to run 5760x1080 on highest settings without a current $900+ GPU configuration. It's like, I have the money, I just can't justify spending it :|
just rambling again.
you don't think if the titan /gtx 780 marketing works today nvidia will try to keep the gtx880 at minimal increase.
depending on amd of course.
-and intel I think most forgot about them.
right now nv has built a house of cards with the two levels of chips for the consumer market [games] because of double the cost. [one playing with amd and the other is intel]
-unknown factors are
how badly amd wants some market share back. will they go to a bigger die and all the issues.
-and what is intel doing on their pro line of cards that will reflex on nvidia's pro line filtered down to the next titan's for the consumer. [and amds pro line]
top of my head intel used a 2-3 year old ark. to complete with nv k20 and looked good [using a die shrink], so if intel has been going after pro and mobile products at the same time what will their next pro cards compare to nv's to look like in the pro market in 2014 and can nv use those new cards/gpu's for game cards ? right now it looks like 100% more trannys = 50% game increase for the gaming buyers market. this year could be a one off . using 2013 gamers $$$$to fight off intel.
-man it just seems strange in the past we had 2 card dev's and 2 lines of cards at a stable price being made by the same foundry .
-now we have 3 foundry's , 3 dev's that effect our card prices and products.
you don't think if the titan /gtx 780 marketing works today nvidia will try to keep the gtx880 at minimal increase.
depending on amd of course.
-and intel I think most forgot about them.
right now nv has built a house of cards with the two levels of chips for the consumer market [games] because of double the cost. [one playing with amd and the other is intel]
-unknown factors are
how badly amd wants some market share back. will they go to a bigger die and all the issues.
-and what is intel doing on their pro line of cards that will reflex on nvidia's pro line filtered down to the next titan's for the consumer. [and amds pro line]
top of my head intel used a 2-3 year old ark. to complete with nv k20 and looked good [using a die shrink], so if intel has been going after pro and mobile products at the same time what will their next pro cards compare to nv's to look like in the pro market in 2014 and can nv use those new cards/gpu's for game cards ? right now it looks like 100% more trannys = 50% game increase for the gaming buyers market. this year could be a one off . using 2013 gamers $$$$to fight off intel.
-man it just seems strange in the past we had 2 card dev's and 2 lines of cards at a stable price being made by the same foundry .
-now we have 3 foundry's , 3 dev's that effect our card prices and products.
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DooKey
Golden Member
- Nov 9, 2005
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Two things.
Your initial comment, as I already restated from the beginning, was that PC gamers would start avoiding NV because their top end cards are too expensive and would start buying consoles. You are wrong. Quit avoiding your own comment about the mass market and my rebuttal.
Second, the market only cares about gross numbers and could care less about individual decisions until it effects said market. You can cry about value all you want, but if enough people buy at a certain price point your voice is but a pitiful cry into the darkness. Better get to work on your crying because NV is winning this round by default.
Price really depends on if AMD is going to compete or bow out like they did against Intel.
Actually I guess the real question if they're going to continue to bow out, since without a refresh they've already conceded the top two single card, possibly even three single card slots to Nvidia.
Which is why I think AMD will remove themselves from the top shelf market completely as well as HPC, since they can't penetrate CUDA and Phi is a better alternative solution.
Actually I guess the real question if they're going to continue to bow out, since without a refresh they've already conceded the top two single card, possibly even three single card slots to Nvidia.
Which is why I think AMD will remove themselves from the top shelf market completely as well as HPC, since they can't penetrate CUDA and Phi is a better alternative solution.
Vesku
Diamond Member
- Aug 25, 2005
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toyota
Lifer
- Apr 15, 2001
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DooKey
Golden Member
- Nov 9, 2005
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I agree with you completely. It would certainly be nice if there was a competitor to NV that would help to drive prices down. Unfortunately there really isn't anymore. AMD and their crap management have ruined the ATI acquisition as well as their own CPU IP. The AMD ship is sinking and taking their IPs to the bottom as "Value" properties. It really sucks for all of us.
30% faster than Titan would actually be pretty damn impressive from a technical perspective, because GK110 has a larger shader and memory bandwidth delta vs. GK104 than GF110 did over GF114. GM104 would have contain 18-20 SMX's instead of 16 (double GK104). In other words, if Nvidia sticks to their formula they used going from GF114 to GK104, then I don't think GM104 will be 30% faster than Titan.
Pretty much exactly. We'll see a 320-bit 12 SMX GK110 Geforce card before the year is over. Whether it's called gtx770ti or GTX780 LE, or whatever, it will come out and it will be faster than the 7970GE, giving Nvidia 3 cards straight up faster and also one (gtx770) that will tie the 7970GE.
No, my initial comment was that, since two new consoles were launching this year, some people would choose them over upgrading if GPUs were prohibitively more expensive for them. Gamers want to play games. The platform they chose to play them on is a value proposition, especially at a time when they are announcing both a new GPU cycle and console generation. Just because you say "you are wrong" doesn't mean you had a point to address.
And the market only cares about gross numbers? What the pants do you think gross numbers are made of? Individual purchases. Like the ones we make. Like the ones we are discussing here. Please tell me what you are adding to the discussion besides a pitiful understanding of economics?
chimaxi83
Diamond Member
- May 18, 2003
- 5,457
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You mean to tell me Nvidia can release a card nearly 18-24 months after 7970, and beat it? Hold the phone, we've got some blockbuster news here.
And next year AMD will release "real" nextgen stuff that blows them all away. Does it mean NV's stack was bad? Nope, all about the timing.
toyota
Lifer
- Apr 15, 2001
- 12,957
- 1
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I hope we dont have to hold the phone while waiting for an answer from AMD...
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