The future of IP

[Doppel]

Has it occurred to anybody that a great majority of the people who pirate software, movies, games wouldn't acquire the games UNLESS they were free? Hence no revenue lost because every pirate would not be willing to pay anything for the product?

It has occurred I dare say to the majority of us. It is infallibly obvious to most of us actually, although some still claim the opposite using hard, if incorrect arguments, to prove their point. the record industry, for example. A beautiful example would be if I had a collection of 10000 songs and 3000 movies but I'm poor ass broke and have no money. Obviously, it would literally have been impossible to get those legitimately, so there's no way I ever cost anybody 10000X$1 or 3000X$15. How much money has a trailer park kid cost the movie industry if he has for his own use downloaded thousands of movies? he's cost them essentially nothing.

 

[Infohawk]

But whatever we do with patents and copy writes they wont affect consumers. consumers will still need to pay for content. What that can and will affect are businesses and how they innovate not some zero downloading every movie in his moms basement.

Your the one who works in the entertainment industry right?

I would like a system where content creators get rewarded, but I don't think the world would end if they did not. Companies would still create new inventions, for sure. As for copyright, true artists would still create their art, although perhaps at a reduced level. Even for expensive endeavors like movies, the medium is becoming more democratic. People are entertaining themselves with free culture all the time. A lot of what is on youtube is one example.

Honestly I'd like to see a group of countries see what happens in that environment where there were zero copyright and patent rules.

 

[JSt0rm]

It has occurred I dare say to the majority of us. It is infallibly obvious to most of us actually, although some still claim the opposite using hard, if incorrect arguments, to prove their point. the record industry, for example. A beautiful example would be if I had a collection of 10000 songs and 3000 movies but I'm poor ass broke and have no money. Obviously, it would literally have been impossible to get those legitimately, so there's no way I ever cost anybody 10000X$1 or 3000X$15. How much money has a trailer park kid cost the movie industry if he has for his own use downloaded thousands of movies? he's cost them essentially nothing.

But its not true. Given a environment that you can only consume as much content as you can afford those people who now steal 100% of their content consumption would in fact purchase content. Would they purchase the $300 a month worth of content they consume now? The all you can eat free buffet of content? No. Of course not. Bu its laughable to think those people would stare at a wall for all of their lives.

In fact its the kind of thing only people who want to think theft of this type doesn't matter think.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I'm thinking of the long term when people get what their parents had and what they had and while the economics change what do bored people do? No great causes to make the lives of people better. Sure some would thrive and could add but how would the adage of "necessity is the mother of invention" work when need is gone? Perhaps it's just me but it's not just the good things which make our character but adversity challenged and overcome. The end result is a society which doesn't need it's individuals. What happens when we have no point? I'm not sure how the human psyche would adapt. Adapt we will, but I'm not sure about the result on the human spirit.

Well if GWB is any indication, they start wars for no good reason.

Personally, i've sen some people in the worst sheitholes you can imagine come up with things and solutions like you would not believe, not to mention my people, the solutions are endless and there is ALWAYS a need to fill. I don't think innovation will ever be straddled by any means.

But what the fuck do i know, i grew up in Brixton and i'm happy to have a working phone line and a computer that i can hardly figure out.

The human spirit lives on as long as there are people who invoke it in others, we're not dead yet, are we?

Human evolution isn't done yet and you know it will never be done, adaptation even if forced induces evolutionary forces via selection, not all selection is natural.

Sure, it hurts to think we are actually being selected like dogs rather than to let the natural selection run it's course, but it's been that way since humans learned to whack a wide hipped broad over the skull and drag her home.

 

[bfdd]

If you knew that spending 1000 hours creating something new meant you would not get paid for it because people could simply legally take what you created, would you bother to create it?

sure why not? i mostly do things just to do them.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

But its not true. Given a environment that you can only consume as much content as you can afford those people who now steal 100% of their content consumption would in fact purchase content. Would they purchase the $300 a month worth of content they consume now? The all you can eat free buffet of content? No. Of course not. Bu its laughable to think those people would stare at a wall for all of their lives.

In fact its the kind of thing only people who want to think theft of this type doesn't matter think.

Not ever going to reply to me in the other thread, eh?

As long as the movie industry tries to milk the customers for every penny via release shedules, i will pirate.

Make new releases available to me and i'll pay for viewing them.

The days when customers take it up the arse with the industries release schedules are over.

OVER.

Besides, downloading a movie for private viewing isn't illegal in the UK.

What fucked with me earlier on tonight though was that i was trying to download a phone tool to make an upgrade and i had to wade through a ton of links to get to one that wasn't a megaupload link, for something completely legal.

That makes me support the measures even less, it's actually infringing on some peoples legal rights to upload completely legal information and software (in this case open source software).

Meanwhile people will still download movies and music not yet available through other means via other sites... They will go through what i went through to download legal software.

Sometimes your own worst enemy is yourself.

 

[JSt0rm]

But you don't invest 15 years of your life and a hundred thousand dollars in equipment (that cant be downloaded) doing something 60 hours a week for free.

As for youtube yes of course we are getting democratization of content creation thru new technology. I think its great. But that is different than people just stealing content that was made professionally.

And we can ALL see and hear the difference.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Actually all of my software is tied to a hardware usb "lock". They did have a problem about 2 years ago with some hackers emulating it. Almost destroyed the plug in industry. Everything is back on track now and luckily I dont think many places closed. However there have been fewer new products as people held new software instead of releasing it into that environment.

And no one cares, i could hack it and i can't hack worth sheit.

All i would need is a copy of FreeBSD, your dongle and i would find a way to access it and copy it to any USB storage that supports a locked storage ROM unit (Maxell).

The alternative is to hard copy it.

If you think you have done anything but spend more money than you'll ever make implementing it, you are wrong.

You'd make more money skipping the hardware. I can guess what the software is considering what i know about you.

 

[JSt0rm]

Not ever going to reply to me in the other thread, eh?

As long as the movie industry tries to milk the customers for every penny via release shedules, i will pirate.

Make new releases available to me and i'll pay for viewing them.

The days when customers take it up the arse with the industries release schedules are over.

OVER.

You certainly have the right to boycott a product because you feel that industry has not treated you fairly. You dont have the right to steal. You tell yourself "these are the reasons I steal and I feel good about it" ok so that is your moral compass. I cant stop you but hopefully one day you wont have that ability.

There is nothing in the bill of rights (or the uk equivalent) that says "Freedomz of the interwebz for all downloadz"

 

[JSt0rm]

And no one cares, i could hack it and i can't hack worth sheit.

All i would need is a copy of FreeBSD, your dongle and i would find a way to access it and copy it to any USB storage that supports a locked storage ROM unit (Maxell).

The alternative is to hard copy it.

If you think you have done anything but spend more money than you'll ever make implementing it, you are wrong.

You'd make more money skipping the hardware. I can guess what the software is considering what i know about you.

No. Tons of people try and have hacked it but there it stands now not hacked.

Will it be hacked in the future? Yes I'm sure as it already happened but it wasnt some small thing. And companies almost went out of business over it so I doubt "they would make more money by not having it"

as to the software I make no secret of it. here is the hardware asset site

ilok.com

Go hack it.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You certainly have the right to boycott a product because you feel that industry has not treated you fairly. You dont have the right to steal. You tell yourself "these are the reasons I steal and I feel good about it" ok so that is your moral compass. I cant stop you but hopefully one day you wont have that ability.

There is nothing in the bill of rights (or the uk equivalent) that says "Freedomz of the interwebz for all downloadz"

Stealing implies that i remove a product from someones possession, i don't.

Piracy is NOT stealing, i am not taking anything from anyone.

The industry started going berzerk with it's user rigths, nowadays you can't even borrow a DVD from a friend without it being STEALING!

Provide the recent movies to me and i'll watch them, i can't rent them, i can't buy them, i can't stream them but i can download them, so i'll do that.

Again, the release schedule greed which was milking every last drop out of the market is now extinct, either realize that and provide me with a means to buy or rent the movie or i'll just download it.

I'll have it before it even plays in Sheffield.

I promise you that i have the means to pay for any movie i'd want to rent or buy, but i can't do that with new movies, i'll have to download them and i can download them in HD quality and watch them on an 100" THX approved screen with full 21:9 format...

Should i donate and if so to where? I just want to watch the fucking movie and the industry doesn't want me to see it?

The UK doesn't have a bill of rights nor a constitution, we have a set of laws based on the magna carta in which fair use is a part. We are not retarded.

 

[BoberFett]

I use the same tools as in the music industry. Most money in the industry is made off hobby players and they are the ones who have chosen to download hacked copies.

It's delusional to think that hobbyists, people who do not make money using those tools, would pay for them if they were no longer free.

 

[JSt0rm]

Stealing implies that i remove a product from someones possession, i don't.

Piracy is NOT stealing, i am not taking anything from anyone.

It is stealing because we make a product that is consumed. A experience. By having that experience and consuming that product without paying you are stealing.

You say it isnt because you dont want to think you are a thief.

It's delusional to think that hobbyists, people who do not make money using those tools, would pay for them if they were no longer free.

Hobbyist spend money on their hobbies. Its delusional to think they don't. Thieves steal things they should purchase that is reality.

If you guys dont want something or hate something then boycott it. All you do by stealing it is show that yes there is a demand for this item but the problem is people will take for free if they have the choice. So if this choice is taken away you only have yourselves to blame.

 

[BoberFett]

Hobbyist spend money on their hobbies. Its delusional to think they don't. Thieves steal things they should purchase that is reality.

If you guys dont want something or hate something then boycott it. All you do by stealing it is show that yes there is a demand for this item but the problem is people will take for free if they have the choice. So if this choice is taken away you only have yourselves to blame.

When the cost of the hobby increases, they may also find another hobby. Get rid of all those people you say are supporting the industry and you better like paying higher prices to support further development.

Hell, maybe you're the problem. Clearly as a content producer, you make money using your tools. Hobbyists don't. In a fair, progressive system you'd pay tens of thousands of dollars for those products and they'd pay nothing.

That is the Democrat way, is it not? Your cost goes up with your ability to pay.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

No. Tons of people try and have hacked it but there it stands now not hacked.

Will it be hacked in the future? Yes I'm sure as it already happened but it wasnt some small thing. And companies almost went out of business over it so I doubt "they would make more money by not having it"

as to the software I make no secret of it. here is the hardware asset site

ilok.com

Go hack it.

Me? An old soldier who just learned how to use his android phone for comms?

Nah... i could never do that.

Besides, i'm an open software kinda of guy so even if i could, which i can't, i never would, for the few applications it's used for i can find better OSS alternatives.

I remember cracking Pro Audio with a Debug script that someone wrote once upon a time, many years ago, also cracked some AutoCad dongle fairly easily by using a paper clip and software to loop it through the serial port, lol...

But todays crap... unpossible!

It's not like you can just download it...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It is stealing because we make a product that is consumed. A experience. By having that experience and consuming that product without paying you are stealing.

So if you wake up one morning and your explicitly decorated living room isn't unique but i copied your exact style i stole your living room? Look it doesn't matter how many times you say it's stealing, it's not.

You say it isnt because you dont want to think you are a thief.

For downloading movies that i want to watch that i cannot watch in any other way? Nope, i don't even consider it real piracy since if i like it i'll want to invite someone to watch it in a proper theater. I don't pirate software, i run OSS, all around. Sorry dipsheit, seems like you lose this argument too.

 

[JSt0rm]

When the cost of the hobby increases, they may also find another hobby. Get rid of all those people you say are supporting the industry and you better like paying higher prices to support further development.

Hell, maybe you're the problem. Clearly as a content producer, you make money using your tools. Hobbyists don't. In a fair, progressive system you'd pay tens of thousands of dollars for those products and they'd pay nothing.

That is the Democrat way, is it not? Your cost goes up with your ability to pay.

Is that my position now? A strawman?

No I think we are done talking about this subject for the day.

Do whatever you want but dont be mad when it becomes limited in the future. You are responsible for your actions in this world and if people collectively refuse to pay for things they use expect the law of the land to come down on you.

Me? An old soldier who just learned how to use his android phone for comms?

Nah... i could never do that.

Besides, i'm an open software kinda of guy so even if i could, which i can't, i never would, for the few applications it's used for i can find better OSS alternatives.

I remember cracking Pro Audio with a Debug script that someone wrote once upon a time, many years ago, also cracked some AutoCad dongle fairly easily by using a paper clip and software to loop it through the serial port, lol...

But todays crap... unpossible!

It's not like you can just download it...

ok. do what you like. I have some amazing software that isnt open source. Software that uses the ilok plus individual executable files per client.

 

[Ns1]

Milking the customers isn't the way to go, why don't you reply to me in the other thread and explain to me why i shouldn't pirate new movies.

Cuz someone dropped 200 million to make a product and deserve to get paid for it?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Cuz someone dropped 200 million to make a product and deserve to get paid for it?

So? I can't buy it, can't download it, can't rent it, isn't even playing in the theater and i have a one year old baby to take care of...

See the release schedules were a way to milk every last penny out of every last consumer, they are now pissed they can't do that anymore but rather than provide me with a means to actually view the movie for a fee they just want to keep doing what they have always done.

And they bit themselves in the arse because the only option i have is to pirate it if i want to see it, so that is what i'll do.

If i COULD view it legally somehow, i WOULD but i CANNOT.

The reason i cannot is because of greed, they think they can still use their old tactics to milk every penny out of it and they can't, greed got the best of them and now they are crying over not getting to milk every penny from consumers... i don't feel all that bad when i download the movie and this is the reason why.

 

[Ns1]

So? I can't buy it, can't download it, can't rent it, isn't even playing in the theater and i have a one year old baby to take care of...

See the release schedules were a way to milk every last penny out of every last consumer, they are now pissed they can't do that anymore but rather than provide me with a means to actually view the movie for a fee they just want to keep doing what they have always done.

And they bit themselves in the arse because the only option i have is to pirate it if i want to see it, so that is what i'll do.

If i COULD view it legally somehow, i WOULD but i CANNOT.

The reason i cannot is because of greed, they think they can still use their old tactics to milk every penny out of it and they can't, greed got the best of them and now they are crying over not getting to milk every penny from consumers... i don't feel all that bad when i download the movie and this is the reason why.

You could wait 6 months when it's released on other media, but you don't to because like the rest of the internet you feel entitled to what you want when you want for whatever price you want.

I understand where you're coming from, however.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

ok. do what you like. I have some amazing software that isnt open source. Software that uses the ilok plus individual executable files per client.

I really do wish you the best of luck in an industry that is probably taking quite a beatdown from piracy, i really do.

As i have said, i've never needlessly pirated anything, if there was a means to actually pay for a movie that is new and i want to watch i'd do so, but they don't want to allow that, they want to stick to their old schedule where every customer is milked to the brim, their greed is their downfall.

In your case, if i would ever need software using your ilok, i'd pay for it because it would be available to me, but it's not uncrackable, no software is even with a hardare dongle, all you have to do is to figure out the response mechanism and use a service to do that... but you already knew that.

I've paid for a lot of music and movies over the years, but i've downloaded all of it to get rid of the DRM crap.

It's WAY easier to use it if you pirate it than if you buy it, that is a real problem, i got some DVD's from the US that i HAD TO COPY to even get them to play because of region codes... It all has to do with releases and it's bloody daft.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You could wait 6 months when it's released on other media, but you don't to because like the rest of the internet you feel entitled to what you want when you want for whatever price you want.

I understand where you're coming from, however.

If i like it, i'll buy it.

The release schedules were put into practice so that people would watch a movie, rent it and then buy it, that was the way that worked, now i can download it before it even plays on the teather, give me one good reason not to do that.

The greed got the better of them and they have to adapt or accept the fact that we won't wait for it, either you provide the new release in a format that i can watch or i'll download it.

It's that fucking simple because i don't have another choice, i can't bring a one year old to the theater even if i would want to watch it there and i can't watch it at home if no one but TPB provides it, so i'll download it and watch it.

 

[Fern]

This is quite an interesting concept really, 3D printing of physical things. IP is illegal but also easy. However, manufacturing something yourself is so hard that nobody seems to car (unless you sell knock-offs), but what if you can manufacture to spec all yourself without any money to the original designer.

This is a complicated subject.

Building something for yourself sounds like a (possible) violation of patent law. It's my understanding that the remedy is a civil one. I.e., no criminal penalties as with copyrights.

Accordingly, I doubt anything would be done. All the patent holder could do is sue you for damages. I.e., the profit they didn't get off the one unit you manufactured. It's not worth it.

Fern

 

[Ns1]

If i like it, i'll buy it.

The release schedules were put into practice so that people would watch a movie, rent it and then buy it, that was the way that worked, now i can download it before it even plays on the teather, give me one good reason not to do that.

The greed got the better of them and they have to adapt or accept the fact that we won't wait for it, either you provide the new release in a format that i can watch or i'll download it.

It's that fucking simple because i don't have another choice, i can't bring a one year old to the theater even if i would want to watch it there and i can't watch it at home if no one but TPB provides it, so i'll download it and watch it.

blah blah blah more justification. Man up, admit you're stealing, and call it a day.

(your other choice is to not watch the program in question)

 

[Fern]

Discussions of piracy seem to revolve around downloading music and movies. IP that is very transient in nature.

What happens when the line between media and the physical world gets blurred?

http://i.materialise.com/blog/entry/3d-printing-piracy-3d-printing-the-settlers-of-catan

When we develop the technology to create nearly unlimited physical goods, say someday we actually do invent the Star Trek replicator, are we still going to create artificial scarcity? Will we insist that people not be allowed to create their own goods even though scarcity could be a thing of the past?
-snip-

-snip-
What about the future? What if instant fabrication becomes a reality? What if the future of home building is a giant 3D printer that is placed on the ground and a few days later, boom. New home. Think of the affect that could have on society. Now imagine that such ideas will be hampered by the fact that even though homes could be created quickly and easily, increasing availability and decreasing cost, that somewhere up the food chain is some "intellectual property" owner who says that "printing" out that home without paying him a huge sum is a crime.

In the past, people who owned property were kings. Does the future make intellectual property owners kings? Why is a monopoly on a physical item considered bad, but a monopoly on an idea is considered good?

Yes, the future makes "intellectual property owner kings".

Actually, it's not the "future". Before the rise of the PC and internet the richest people I ever met/heard of still were developers of IP (most had developed patents).

E.g., I've seen or heard of people like the guy (or actually his decedents) that patented the galvanization process or created a fabric 'loop' in use by the textile industry. Mega wealthy.

But these are patents, not copyrights.

I'm not sure why that's bad, or why a (time) limited monopoly of an idea you developed is bad. (See comment below.)

It's hard to comment on your question(s) because copyright/patent law is complicated and there are variables I suspect you may not have imagined.

E.g., you pose your question as though the "3D" printer/machine that can create these tangible items (homes etc) is owned by the person. I can tell you that if the inventor of that 3D machine were my client it would never be sold outright. Never (at least not while the patent/copyright was in force.)

Instead, you would lease it from our company. Your lease fee would depend upon what you used it to make. You make a hammer, you owe a small fee. You make a house or a jet aircraft, be prepared to pay big bucks.

I.e., the 'business model' needs to be taken into account.

I can also imagine a long chain of people taking their cut. Most 'customers' of the 3D machine would be utterly incapable of programming it create anything complex. Therefore the people who set-up the programs for a house, a car, a plane or basically anything with moving parts would probably charge the inventor of the 3D machine a royalty too.

(For the "see below" comment.) I have no problem with patents being 20 yrs. That may actually be a bit short. However, I checked out the period for copyrights and it is well over a 100 yrs, I think too long in most all cases.

Fern