The Freak Show Continues: O'Donnell Questions Separation Of Church & State

[sandorski]

The bolded part is what's been the sticking point through the ages. Precisely what does that mean? It's fairly clear that the founders did not want to mandate a religion which would literally be establishing one. On the other hand if it is a cross, does that mean that the founders would abhor it on public land? That doesn't seem likely either.

The problem is that each situation has it's merits. We hear about a cross being displayed in a park as being against the separation of church and state by some, but if that is true, there are a lot of crosses in Arlington Cemetery. Which one of you is going to cut them off?

Unfortunately extremists on both sides will push just as hard as they can leaving the rest of us scratching our heads at their antics.

Headstones are there to honour those buried in the graves, they are not placed there by the State.

Displaying Religious Icons on Public Property are clearly giving official Sanction. It could be argued that Equal Time could get around this. Problem with that is inevitably some Religions are not going to be recognized or worse, groups like Westboro will make up their own Holidays just to get some exposure. There are plenty of Churches/Believers who can display whatever shit they feel like displaying.

 

[PJABBER]

I think it is clear that while the founders did not want a state religion they were not opposed at all to the practice of religion and thought it was one of the strengths of the new nation.

Thomas Jefferson quote, on the wall of the
Jefferson Memorial, Washington D.C.
​

The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. – Patrick Henry

Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand. – John Adams

Religion is the only solid base of morals and that morals are the only possible support of free governments. Therefore education should teach the precepts of religion and the duties of man toward God. – Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution

Human law must rest its authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is divine …. Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. – James Wilson, signer of the Declaration, member of the Continental Congress, constructor of the Constitution, one of the original Supreme Court justices appointed by President George Washington.

It is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand….The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty. – John Adams

Whereas true religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness: Resolved, That it be, and it is hereby earnestly recommended to the several states, to take the most effectual measures for the encouragement thereof, and for the suppressing theatrical entertainments, horse racing, gaming, and such other diversions as are productive of idleness, dissipation, and a general depravity of principles and manners. – Journals of the American Congress: From 1774 to 1788

[T]he genuine source of correct republican principles is the Bible, particularly the New Testament or the Christian religion. . . . and to this we owe our free constitutions of government. – Noah Webster

I have always considered Christianity as the strong ground of republicanism. The spirit is opposed, not only to the splendor, but even to the very forms of monarchy, and many of its precepts have for their objects republican liberty and equality as well as simplicity, integrity, and economy in government. It is only necessary for republicanism to ally itself to the Christian religion to overturn all the corrupted political and religious institutions of the world. – Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence

It would be unbecoming the representatives of this nation to assemble for the first time in this solemn temple without looking up to the Supreme Ruler of the universe, and imploring his blessing…Here, and throughout our country, may simple manners, pure morals, and true religion flourish forever! – President John Adams, dedicating the U.S. Capitol Building, Nov. 22, 1800

If [the] empire of superstition and hypocrisy should be overthrown, happy indeed will it be for the world; but if all religion and all morality should be over-thrown with it, what advantage will be gained? The doctrine of human equality is founded entirely in the Christian doctrine that we all are children of the same Father, all accountable to Him for our conduct to one another, all equally bound to respect each other’s self love. – John Adams

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay, First Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion…Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. – John Adams

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. – George Washington, Farewell Address

Religion should therefore be considered as the first of their [Americans] political institutions. From the start, politics and religion have agreed and have not since ceased to do so. – Alexis de Tocqueville / Democracy in America

In the United States religion exercises but little influence upon the laws and upon the details of public opinion, but it directs the manners of the community, and by regulating domestic life it regulates the State. – Alexis de Tocqueville / Democracy in America

The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other. – Alexis de Tocqueville / Democracy in America

Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country. – Alexis de Tocqueville / Democracy in America

Capstone of the Washington Monument
facing east says Laus Deo
(Praise be to God in Latin)
​

 

[CrackRabbit]

The problem is that each situation has it's merits. We hear about a cross being displayed in a park as being against the separation of church and state by some, but if that is true, there are a lot of crosses in Arlington Cemetery. Which one of you is going to cut them off?

This has been addressed before. Those crosses (in general) represent the religions of the people buried under them. Atheists, Jews, Muslims and even Wiccans have their own symbols displayed on their headstones when they are buried in a national cemetery.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Headstones are there to honour those buried in the graves, they are not placed there by the State.

Displaying Religious Icons on Public Property are clearly giving official Sanction. It could be argued that Equal Time could get around this. Problem with that is inevitably some Religions are not going to be recognized or worse, groups like Westboro will make up their own Holidays just to get some exposure. There are plenty of Churches/Believers who can display whatever shit they feel like displaying.

That is your opinion though. They are still crosses and they are still on public ground. Mind you I agree with your analysis however there are those who might disagree with us based on an absolutist POV. It's all about where one draws the line in the sand.

 

[sandorski]

That is your opinion though. They are still crosses and they are still on public ground. Mind you I agree with your analysis however there are those who might disagree with us based on an absolutist POV. It's all about where one draws the line in the sand.

Unsophisticated, can't see the Forest for the Trees types. The best reason for "Elitists" in Power.

 

[PJABBER]

Consider also the statement of the U.S. Supreme Court in 1892 when asked to examine the question of whether the United States was a Christian nation. This is what the court found:

“It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania.”

If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, “In the name of God, amen;” the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe.

These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.
​

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​

 

[sportage]

My gut reaction to this thread is simple. Just "who's" religious beliefs then will we consider when mixing constitution and religion? Christianity? Muslim? Wicca?
You can not have it all ways. Maybe, just maybe, that's why the wise writers of the US constitution wrote it that way.
AMAZING how they foreseen a nutcase like O'Donnell coming along (and others), even way back then. Now THATS divine foresight...

Too bad congress doesn't have that divine wisdom when making laws today...

 

[sandorski]

Consider also the statement of the U.S. Supreme Court in 1892 when asked to examine the question of whether the United States was a Christian nation. This is what the court found:

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​

No one denies the Religious makeup of the US at the time. There's a huge difference between that and the Foundations of the Nation though. Especially in regards to the role of Government.

 

[PJABBER]

My gut reaction to this thread is simple. Just "who's" religious beliefs then will we consider when mixing constitution and religion? Christianity? Muslim? Wicca?
You can not have it all ways. Maybe, just maybe, that's why the wise writers of the US constitution wrote it that way.
AMAZING how they foreseen a nutcase like O'Donnell coming along (and others), even way back then. Now THATS divine foresight...

Too bad congress doesn't have that divine wisdom when making laws today...

The founders were very clear that this was a Christian nation and that while there would be no state religion the government recognized and accepted that Christianity would be the guideline that government would follow.

You have to know more about the history. Taking a tour of Washington, DC would be one way to start.

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton

(Short version, the full tour runs two hours.)

 

[PJABBER]

No one denies the Religious makeup of the US at the time. There's a huge difference between that and the Foundations of the Nation though. Especially in regards to the role of Government.

You are Canadian and have a different history and charter of government -

From Wiki,

Canada is a Commonwealth realm in which the head of state is shared with 15 other countries, including the United Kingdom. The UK's succession laws forbid Roman Catholics and their spouses from occupying the throne, and the reigning monarch is also ex officio Supreme Governor of the Church of England, but Canada is not bound by these laws. Within Canada, the Queen's title include the phrases "By the Grace of God" and "Defender of the Faith."

While the Canadian government's official ties to Christianity are few, it more overtly recognizes the existence of God and even the supremacy of God [9]. Both the preamble to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the national anthem in both languages refer to God.

In 1957, Parliament declared Thanksgiving "a day of general thanksgiving to almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed.", stating that God is almighty and that Canada is blessed. [10]

Some religious schools are government-funded. See Section Twenty-nine of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

You can get an idea of the history and the importance of Christianity and religion in general in Canada here -

Religious History of Canada

 

[LegendKiller]

The founders were very clear that this was a Christian nation and that while there would be no state religion the government recognized and accepted that Christianity would be the guideline that government would follow.

You have to know more about the history. Taking a tour of Washington, DC would be one way to start.

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton

(Short version, the full tour runs two hours.)

However, they all weren't people who believed in the traditional Christian religion and often differed from it greatly. Jefferson was often accused of not being a Christian.

 

[sandorski]

You are Canadian and have a different history and charter of government -

From Wiki,


You can get an idea of the history and the importance of Christianity and religion in general in Canada here -

Religious History of Canada

Thanks, but we're talking about the US Government in this thread.

 

[PJABBER]

Using semantics, that means state governments CAN make laws establishing religion

That is generally correct, at least in the original intent.

...the whole power over the subject of religion is left exclusively to the state governments, to be acted upon according to their own sense of justice, and the state constitutions; and the Catholic and the Protestant, the Calvinist and the Arminian, the Jew and the Infidel, may sit down at the common table of the national councils, without any inquisition into their faith, or mode of worship.'' 7

Much more on the topic of the First Amendment can be found here -

First Amendment - Religion and Expression

 

[mizzou]

Nice, I almost thought she was being considered for election for her down to earth smarts.

No, I knew people just liked her because she's cutesy like Rachel Ray.

On a side note, I bet Rachel Ray knew that gov' should stay out of religion and religion stay out of gov't.

Doing the alternative brings us back to the days of Kings and God ruling the land, and we all know how that turned out don't we?

 

[PJABBER]

Thanks, but we're talking about the US Government in this thread.

I just want to be sure that you understand that, being as you are Canadian and all.

 

[PJABBER]

However, they all weren't people who believed in the traditional Christian religion and often differed from it greatly. Jefferson was often accused of not being a Christian.

This is one of the better articles that summarizes the thinking on Jefferson. My perspective is that his thinking changed with the years and while he maintained a personal code which followed Christian mores but would more accurately be described as deist these days.[SIZE=+1]

[/SIZE]The Religious Affiliation of Third U.S. President
Thomas Jefferson

An extract...

President Thomas Jefferson was a Protestant. Jefferson was raised as an Episcopalian (Anglican). He was also influenced by English Deists and has often been identified by historians as a Deist. He held many beliefs in common with Unitarians of the time period, and sometimes wrote that he thought the whole country would become Unitarian. He wrote that the teachings of Jesus contain the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." Wrote: "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." Source: "Jefferson's Religious Beliefs", by Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997 [URL: http://www.monticello.org/resources/interests/religion.html].

Although Jefferson was never an atheist, he was indeed a champion of religious freedom, and the "Positive Atheism" website has a page of quotes by Jefferson at:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefframe.htm

Note that Thomas Jefferson, one of the nation's most popular and respected presidents, is claimed by many groups.

Jefferson was born into an Anglican family and was raised as an Aglican. He would later be considered an Episcopalian, after the Episcopal Church was officially founded as a separate province within Anglicanism in 1789 (after the Revolution and independence from England).

Later in his adult life Jefferson did not consider himself an Episcopalian, or a member of any other specific denomination. Later in life Jefferson held many clearly Christian, Deist, and Unitarian beliefs, but was not a member of any congregation or denomination. Today, many Unitarians sincerely believe that Jefferson should be "counted as" a Unitarian, just as many Christians point to Jefferson as a Christian, and many of the small number of Americans who identify themselves as Deists believe Jefferson should be classified a Deist.

 

[PJABBER]

Headstones are there to honour those buried in the graves, they are not placed there by the State.

This is incorrect. The government does provide, mark and maintain headstones in the military cemeteries.

From Wiki,

United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers

The United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) maintains many cemeteries specifically devoted to veterans. Most have various rules regarding what must take place in order to be interred there.

The VA only permits graphics on Government-furnished headstones or markers that are approved emblems of belief, the Civil War Union Shield, the Civil War Confederate Southern Cross of Honor, and the Medal of Honor insignia. Arlington National Cemetery has similar restrictions on headstones, though it is maintained by US Department of the Army.

Generally the VA adds a new symbol a few months after receiving a petition from a faith group.[1] However, the Wiccan Pentacle was only added (in 2007) after a lawsuit by Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.[1]

 

[dca221]

QFT. The U.S. Constitution clearly does not mention “separation of church and state.”

I am really surprised that Coons was not familiar with the detail as he has a law degree from Yale and it should have been brought up in a Constitutional law class.

O'Donnell's degree, on the other hand, is in English literature with a concentration in communications. She was studying for a career in theater, which might still serve her well as that is what politics seems to have become.

Listening to the responses in the debates she has had with Coons, O'Donnell has much more than a passing familiarity with the U.S. Constitution and comes across as a strict constructionist. This is entirely unfamiliar territory for most liberals so they tend to jump at seeming "gotcha" points that are only valid in the rarefied atmosphere of sophomoric exchanges amongst their peers in the echo chamber.

I attribute her being much more correct in her Constitutional viewpoints than Coons has been to the fact that conservatives are generally much more aware of Constitutional issues and consider them regularly as a means of validating political stands, while liberals tend to ignore Constitutionality as they push social agendas.
O'Donnell has become the lightning rod for Democrats but so far she has done very well under pressure.

Nice try. She also didn't (doesn't) know what the 14th and the 16th amendment are, and asked for a reminder. You may recall, 14th amendment issues came up recently, so any true conservative would know what it is, right?

Also, on your last point, O'Donnell hasn't become the lightning rod for the Democrats, she has become the laughing stock for 85% of the nation!

 

[PJABBER]

After the series of posts above, I am coming to realize that the whole issue of religion as it applies to American government is somewhat alien to many here.

Christine O'Donnell's statements may sound strange and foreign to many here, but they would not seem such to the founders of the country nor to strict Constitutional constructionists. In fact, she seems to hold very legitimate positions, recognizably so to anyone who has an interest in Constitutional law.

Kind of interesting because she is not trained in the law and must get that perspective from self study.

 

[sandorski]

This is incorrect. The government does provide, mark and maintain headstones in the military cemeteries.

From Wiki,

United States Department of Veterans Affairs emblems for headstones and markers

Like I said, Forest for the Trees. Government might provide the Markers, but those Markers are there to honour the Person buried in the plot. The Government doesn't Choose what those Markers will be.

 

[Paratus]

So PJABBER, just to be clear:

Govt. regulating private business BAD
Govt. regulating private religion GOOD

 

[PJABBER]

Nice try. She also didn't (doesn't) know what the 14th and the 16th amendment are, and asked for a reminder. You may recall, 14th amendment issues came up recently, so any true conservative would know what it is, right?

Also, on your last point, O'Donnell hasn't become the lightning rod for the Democrats, she has become the laughing stock for 85% of the nation!

Seriously, do you think that she couldn't look up information on the Constitution? I am surprised at how much she does know, and what she has shown she knows is more than I have seen demonstrated on this board, where the political issues of the day are discussed 24-7.

I and a handful of others here just posted a number of posts that corrected the misconceptions that this thread started out with and learned a bit in the process. Perhaps you could try this as well.

Let's play a game. I invite everyone posting in this thread to participate.

Question Number 1 - Name the seven Articles of the Unites States Constitution.

Question Number 2 - Name the twenty seven Amendments.

Write them down in the order they are published.

Finished?

Now look them up here.

No lying - how many did you get right?

O'Donnell's opponent couldn't get them right and he has a Yale law degree.

What is even tougher is knowing and understanding the case law attached to the Constitution. In the link above you can click through to each section and get a quick introduction to how the interpretations have changed over time. THAT is even tougher to get right unless one is an absolute specialist. And very few elected officials in Congress are.

What I have come to find is that those who mock the loudest know the least.

And those who dare to mock the most are themselves invariably more worthy of being mocked than any object of their derision.

 

[PJABBER]

Like I said, Forest for the Trees. Government might provide the Markers, but those Markers are there to honour the Person buried in the plot. The Government doesn't Choose what those Markers will be.

Have you ever visited an American national cemetery?

 

[GTaudiophile]

Yep, the Founders sure wanted complete separation of church and state.

(Dare you all to watch it.)

 

[sandorski]

Have you ever visited an American national cemetery?

What difference would it make?