The Fraus of Government Intervention

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
RealClearPolitics

An interesting read. People love the capitalist economy when its doing well, but when the inevitable downturn comes, we whine to the government, who prevents all the normal corrective actions that markets will take. People have very short memories though. A professor of mine in college had a favorite saying. Do you know the definition of stupidity? Doing the same thing multiple times and expecting a different result.

The top story of 2008 is undoubtedly the revival of the left. After nearly two decades on the defensive following the collapse of the Soviet empire--the definitive example of the failure of socialism--advocates of a government-controlled economy are trying to make a comeback.

How brazen has this leftist revival become? It has gotten so far out of hand that some on the left are openly defending central planning. Yes, comrades, you read that right.
I occasionally poke around the Internet to see the response to my articles, and I recently came across a reply to my December 11 article warning about the return of the Old Left, complete with central planning for the financial and auto industries. Over at MyDD, a prominent clearing house for "netroots" Democratic Party activists, Charles Lemos responded by complaining that "Central planning is the latest conservative epithet in the wake of president-elect Obama's bold and sweeping proposals for revitalizing the increasingly moribund American economy." He then goes on to declare that, "As liberals, as progressives it is imperative that we fight for planning. It's time we rehabilitate the concept of long-term planning."

Can anyone really be saying this in the 21st century? If so, it is because they have failed 20th-Century History 101. For those in need of a quick refresher, the satirical website The People's Cube has posted a helpful overview of the product line once offered by the East Bloc's centrally planned auto industry. My favorite line is an old joke about the Yugo: "Every car came with a rear defroster to keep your hands warm as you pushed it."
But central planning has not just been discredited by a mass of empirical evidence. It has been thoroughly refuted in theory, too. Legions of pro-free-market economists, particularly the Austrian school's Ludwig von Mises, have thoroughly demonstrated that the government's so-called planning is actually an attack on planning.

Planning is what is already done in a free economy by millions of private individuals. Every economic decision they make is a plan about how to allocate the only money and effort they have a right to dispose of: their own. And these plans are made with full access to the only kind of information that is really relevant: the context of their own lives and values.
Government planning, by contrast, consists of smashing all of these private plans and replacing them with inferior plans made by inferior men.

Planning for its future solvency, for example, Bank of America decided not to lend money to a defunct window and door manufacturer--but then along comes Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, right before his arrest, to demand that the bank extend such a loan anyway. Other banks decided, reasonably enough, that the best way to survive an economic downturn is to make only conservative investments--but along comes their uninvited new business partner, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, who declares that he expects them to open a floodgate of new lending.

And how about you? You may have decided, for example, that you will get better value for your money by spending it on a Toyota rather than a Pontiac--but then along come George Bush and Barack Obama to decree that your money really ought to go to General Motors after all.

This is the world of central planning, which consists of forcibly substituting the plans of government officials for the far more sensible plans that private individuals make about their own lives and money.

And we haven't seen the worst of it, at least not yet. Much bigger and deadlier lessons will spring to mind for those who were paying attention in 20th-Century History 101. Remember Trofim Lysenko? He's the crackpot scientist who got Stalin's ear and set himself up as the central planner of Soviet agriculture, single-handedly wiping out Soviet wheat production. Or what about the hucksters who convinced Mao that it was possible for peasants to manufacturer steel in small backyard furnaces, helping to turn the Great Leap Forward into a great leap backward?

If you think that these central planning catastrophes are limited to the most doctrinaire Marxist dictatorships, consider that Bernie Madoff's $50 billion Ponzi scheme is minuscule compared to the multi-trillion-dollar Ponzi scheme that is Social Security. And if the economic downturn exposed the fact that Madoff's scheme wasn't backed by any real assets--what do you think a sudden decrease in payroll tax revenues is going to do to Social Security?

Certainly the plans of private individuals can go awry. Just ask the former homeowners who over-extended themselves by taking out adjustable rate mortgages, or the investment banks who over-extended themselves by financing those mortgages. But private mistakes are corrected by the workings of the market. People who can't afford their houses will have to sell them to those who can; failing banks get bought out by healthy banks; unprofitable automakers go bankrupt and their bones are picked clean by manufacturers who can make a profit.

But notice that the whole point of the government's planning in the current crisis is to prevent all of these corrective mechanisms. The government is intervening, not to make the economy healthier and more efficient, but to keep the overextended borrowers in their homes, to keep insolvent banks afloat, and to pump money into failing automakers so that they can keep losing money for another year or two.

That leads us to the deeper reason for the comprehensive failure of government planning. By its very nature, government planning always sacrifices economic calculations to political calculations.

The purpose of government planning is not to maximize the creation of wealth, but rather to maximize the satisfaction of political pressure groups. Hence the auto bailout, the purpose of which is not to make GM profitable but rather to prop up the UAW--the only organization whose destruction is guaranteed if the Detroit automakers file for bankruptcy.
The clearest example of this principle is the attempt to use the auto bailout to force Detroit to stop fighting global warming restrictions and to manufacture underpowered "green" cars. In another interesting response to my article, Todd Myers of the Washington Policy Center--a state-level pro-free-market think tank--observes the irony of Washington, DC, spending billions to save the automakers just as the state of Washington plans to spend billions on a public-transit scheme designed to discourage people from driving cars. "The logic of these activities," Myers concludes, "is that we need to spend $25 billion to save an industry that we are spending $22 billion locally to kill." And this is just a small sampling of what is being proposed on the federal level by means of "cap-and-trade" energy rationing designed to make automobiles too expensive to drive.

The absurdity of George Bush's public proclamations about the financial crisis is that he still considers himself a "free-market guy" who is destroying capitalism in order to save it. But the reasoning behind the auto bailout is even more perverse. Washington wants to save the auto industry so that the global warming lobby can conspire to destroy it.
Given a century of factual and theoretical refutation, continued advocacy of government planning is a transparent fraud. It is an attempt to cover up the fact that what the planners really have to offer us is not planning but chaos--an economy held hostage to the contradictory, ever-shifting whims of government officials and political pressure groups. Isn't that the predominant character of the current bailout frenzy, as the Treasury, the Fed, the president, Congress, and the president-elect careen from one stimulus plan to another? Haven't the past three months given the impression, not of planning, but of spur-of-the-moment improvisation?

The modern left is already based on two big frauds. They call themselves "liberals," even as they oppose liberty--in the economic realm and, increasingly, in the intellectual realm. And they describe themselves as "progressives," even as they seek to reverse two centuries of progress made by capitalism. So it should be no surprise to find advocates of "long-range planning" who systematically oppose the genuine economic plans made by private individuals.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

So why don't they stop the irrational exuberance as well? i really know nothing about your industry except that ira is good :) so please except this as a real question.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

So why don't they stop the irrational exuberance as well? i really know nothing about your industry except that ira is good :) so please except this as a real question.

Because no one has a crystal ball.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
What the Hell is this? Garbage In - Garbage Out ???

Dingleberry #1 (Robert Tracinski) bases a fallacious premise on a statement by Dingleberry#2 (Charles Lemos).

I don't think Charles Lemos speaks for anyone other than Charles Lemos. Then Dingleberry #1 (think Ayn Rand but a bigger wack job): "" ... some on the left are openly defending central planning ... ""

What?

Hey, Comrade. Cut the self-serving bullshit.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Originally posted by: JS80

So why don't they stop the irrational exuberance as well? i really know nothing about your industry except that ira is good :) so please except this as a real question.

Because no one has a crystal ball.[/quote]

you could apply that same logic to irrational discouragement.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

Irrational exuberance that was stoked, mind you, by the same frauds that we're expecting to "fix" the mess now.

Coincidence? I think not.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
348
126
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

Another huge oversimplification of the OP is that this whole 'free market' idea is a myth - when the downturn has a major factor of harmful behavior that regulation can but did not prevent, the issue is that regulation, not broad generalizations about the market 'correcting its problems' as if they were simply 'market cycles'.

For example, remove the laws on insider trading, and watch the reulsting chaos and harm and profit for some and losses for others, and try to explain it in terms of 'market cycles'.

You'd be wasting your time - it's simply an iissue, like credit default swaps and other behaviors, of what the market is permitted to do.

The actual market cycles are another matter and don't seem to me to be the sort of thing that's behind the big crashes.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
Originally posted by: Bateluer
RealClearPolitics

An interesting read. People love the capitalist economy when its doing well, but when the inevitable downturn comes, we whine to the government, who prevents all the normal corrective actions that markets will take. People have very short memories though. A professor of mine in college had a favorite saying. Do you know the definition of stupidity? Doing the same thing multiple times and expecting a different result.

The top story of 2008 is undoubtedly the revival of the left. After nearly two decades on the defensive following the collapse of the Soviet empire--the definitive example of the failure of socialism--advocates of a government-controlled economy are trying to make a comeback.

How brazen has this leftist revival become? It has gotten so far out of hand that some on the left are openly defending central planning. Yes, comrades, you read that right.
I occasionally poke around the Internet to see the response to my articles, and I recently came across a reply to my December 11 article warning about the return of the Old Left, complete with central planning for the financial and auto industries. Over at MyDD, a prominent clearing house for "netroots" Democratic Party activists, Charles Lemos responded by complaining that "Central planning is the latest conservative epithet in the wake of president-elect Obama's bold and sweeping proposals for revitalizing the increasingly moribund American economy." He then goes on to declare that, "As liberals, as progressives it is imperative that we fight for planning. It's time we rehabilitate the concept of long-term planning."

Can anyone really be saying this in the 21st century? If so, it is because they have failed 20th-Century History 101. For those in need of a quick refresher, the satirical website The People's Cube has posted a helpful overview of the product line once offered by the East Bloc's centrally planned auto industry. My favorite line is an old joke about the Yugo: "Every car came with a rear defroster to keep your hands warm as you pushed it."
But central planning has not just been discredited by a mass of empirical evidence. It has been thoroughly refuted in theory, too. Legions of pro-free-market economists, particularly the Austrian school's Ludwig von Mises, have thoroughly demonstrated that the government's so-called planning is actually an attack on planning.

Planning is what is already done in a free economy by millions of private individuals. Every economic decision they make is a plan about how to allocate the only money and effort they have a right to dispose of: their own. And these plans are made with full access to the only kind of information that is really relevant: the context of their own lives and values.
Government planning, by contrast, consists of smashing all of these private plans and replacing them with inferior plans made by inferior men.

Planning for its future solvency, for example, Bank of America decided not to lend money to a defunct window and door manufacturer--but then along comes Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, right before his arrest, to demand that the bank extend such a loan anyway. Other banks decided, reasonably enough, that the best way to survive an economic downturn is to make only conservative investments--but along comes their uninvited new business partner, Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, who declares that he expects them to open a floodgate of new lending.

And how about you? You may have decided, for example, that you will get better value for your money by spending it on a Toyota rather than a Pontiac--but then along come George Bush and Barack Obama to decree that your money really ought to go to General Motors after all.

This is the world of central planning, which consists of forcibly substituting the plans of government officials for the far more sensible plans that private individuals make about their own lives and money.

And we haven't seen the worst of it, at least not yet. Much bigger and deadlier lessons will spring to mind for those who were paying attention in 20th-Century History 101. Remember Trofim Lysenko? He's the crackpot scientist who got Stalin's ear and set himself up as the central planner of Soviet agriculture, single-handedly wiping out Soviet wheat production. Or what about the hucksters who convinced Mao that it was possible for peasants to manufacturer steel in small backyard furnaces, helping to turn the Great Leap Forward into a great leap backward?

If you think that these central planning catastrophes are limited to the most doctrinaire Marxist dictatorships, consider that Bernie Madoff's $50 billion Ponzi scheme is minuscule compared to the multi-trillion-dollar Ponzi scheme that is Social Security. And if the economic downturn exposed the fact that Madoff's scheme wasn't backed by any real assets--what do you think a sudden decrease in payroll tax revenues is going to do to Social Security?

Certainly the plans of private individuals can go awry. Just ask the former homeowners who over-extended themselves by taking out adjustable rate mortgages, or the investment banks who over-extended themselves by financing those mortgages. But private mistakes are corrected by the workings of the market. People who can't afford their houses will have to sell them to those who can; failing banks get bought out by healthy banks; unprofitable automakers go bankrupt and their bones are picked clean by manufacturers who can make a profit.

But notice that the whole point of the government's planning in the current crisis is to prevent all of these corrective mechanisms. The government is intervening, not to make the economy healthier and more efficient, but to keep the overextended borrowers in their homes, to keep insolvent banks afloat, and to pump money into failing automakers so that they can keep losing money for another year or two.

That leads us to the deeper reason for the comprehensive failure of government planning. By its very nature, government planning always sacrifices economic calculations to political calculations.

The purpose of government planning is not to maximize the creation of wealth, but rather to maximize the satisfaction of political pressure groups. Hence the auto bailout, the purpose of which is not to make GM profitable but rather to prop up the UAW--the only organization whose destruction is guaranteed if the Detroit automakers file for bankruptcy.
The clearest example of this principle is the attempt to use the auto bailout to force Detroit to stop fighting global warming restrictions and to manufacture underpowered "green" cars. In another interesting response to my article, Todd Myers of the Washington Policy Center--a state-level pro-free-market think tank--observes the irony of Washington, DC, spending billions to save the automakers just as the state of Washington plans to spend billions on a public-transit scheme designed to discourage people from driving cars. "The logic of these activities," Myers concludes, "is that we need to spend $25 billion to save an industry that we are spending $22 billion locally to kill." And this is just a small sampling of what is being proposed on the federal level by means of "cap-and-trade" energy rationing designed to make automobiles too expensive to drive.

The absurdity of George Bush's public proclamations about the financial crisis is that he still considers himself a "free-market guy" who is destroying capitalism in order to save it. But the reasoning behind the auto bailout is even more perverse. Washington wants to save the auto industry so that the global warming lobby can conspire to destroy it.
Given a century of factual and theoretical refutation, continued advocacy of government planning is a transparent fraud. It is an attempt to cover up the fact that what the planners really have to offer us is not planning but chaos--an economy held hostage to the contradictory, ever-shifting whims of government officials and political pressure groups. Isn't that the predominant character of the current bailout frenzy, as the Treasury, the Fed, the president, Congress, and the president-elect careen from one stimulus plan to another? Haven't the past three months given the impression, not of planning, but of spur-of-the-moment improvisation?

The modern left is already based on two big frauds. They call themselves "liberals," even as they oppose liberty--in the economic realm and, increasingly, in the intellectual realm. And they describe themselves as "progressives," even as they seek to reverse two centuries of progress made by capitalism. So it should be no surprise to find advocates of "long-range planning" who systematically oppose the genuine economic plans made by private individuals.

Someone don't know the difference between Gov regulated Capitalism and Gov owned & run capitalism.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

So why don't they stop the irrational exuberance as well? i really know nothing about your industry except that ira is good :) so please except this as a real question.

Because no one has a crystal ball.

Heh. You didn't need a crystal ball to recognize this as unsustainable-

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepa...iew/27leon_graph2.html

Housing prices were already unsustainable when the FRB cut rates radically in the wake of 9/11, fed by investors fleeing the then moribund stock market. Add the notion that financial institutions could be self regulating in a non-destructive fashion, studied neglect and exploitation by the Bush Admin to the pious intonations of a sound economy from the pundits of the Right, including Greenspan, and we get the inevitable collapse.

Which, by virtue of the dismantling of New Deal protections, is so huge and pervasive that government action is pretty much required, unless we want to live 1931 all over again.

What few people realize is that the so-called "recovery" from the dot-bust was largely contrived on the basis of deficits, outrageous leverage by financial institutions, cheap money and ridiculous real estate valuations. It wasn't real in the sense that it didn't address the fundamental weaknesses in our economy. In many ways, offshoring has deprived american workers of the ability to be both producers and consumers, even as changes to the tax structure channeled the fruits of growth to the top, where they stay. There's no "down" in trickledown, only up. Instead of income and assets, people increasingly have only credit, extended to us personally, our govt and institutions by the winners of this economic warfare, american capitalists and foreign reservoirs of dollars. Enormous federal deficits soak up overseas dollars, holding dollar valuation at a false high level, encouraging more offshoring and prolonging the attack on the productive base of the economy.

When that credit is made more difficult to obtain, as it is today, the results can be devastating, because that's all people have. 1 in 7 american homeowners are now underwater, with more to come. Borrow against that, biatch- your "assets" aren't assets at all, just liabilities. You can't even give it away without destroying your credit rating. Go back to your service sector job, if it's still there, figure out how you can compete against huge capital investment in foreign production facilities with little or no capital being invested here except in consumption facilities...

Now that investors have come to their senses, realized they've been scammed, they're not putting more money into the structure (the financial services sector) that made their investment dollars simply disappear unless they have govt guarantees. They won't buy the synthetic CDO-squared paper anymore, or the other MBS paper, either- but they'll loan the money to the govt to do exactly that, bail out the bandits of Wall St, and hopefully some of the rest of us in the process. Because, trust me, people will be starving in the streets before Uncle Sam defaults on any portion of debt maintenance other than SS... no matter what it takes.

Planned economy? We're living it. The plan was to ride it into the dirt behind the screen of the free marketeer chearleading...
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,446
7,508
136
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?

I love how you use the maximum commitment amounts as your baseline number you parrot about. How much of the money was actually used? How much was invested versus printed? Huge difference.

Additionally, what is the harm of not doing anything? Global economic collapse? Hey, great fucking idea, everybody goes down because we can't fix our shit!

Instability? The stability added by adding liquidity into the market and helping calm the situation is a massive help.

 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

Another huge oversimplification of the OP is that this whole 'free market' idea is a myth - when the downturn has a major factor of harmful behavior that regulation can but did not prevent, the issue is that regulation, not broad generalizations about the market 'correcting its problems' as if they were simply 'market cycles'.

For example, remove the laws on insider trading, and watch the reulsting chaos and harm and profit for some and losses for others, and try to explain it in terms of 'market cycles'.

You'd be wasting your time - it's simply an iissue, like credit default swaps and other behaviors, of what the market is permitted to do.

The actual market cycles are another matter and don't seem to me to be the sort of thing that's behind the big crashes.

Insider trading is fraud. Nobody who values free markets defends fraud.

Any other strawmen?
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?

I love how you use the maximum commitment amounts as your baseline number you parrot about. How much of the money was actually used? How much was invested versus printed? Huge difference.

Additionally, what is the harm of not doing anything? Global economic collapse? Hey, great fucking idea, everybody goes down because we can't fix our shit!

Instability? The stability added by adding liquidity into the market and helping calm the situation is a massive help.

You have a perverse sense of stability.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?

I love how you use the maximum commitment amounts as your baseline number you parrot about. How much of the money was actually used? How much was invested versus printed? Huge difference.

Additionally, what is the harm of not doing anything? Global economic collapse? Hey, great fucking idea, everybody goes down because we can't fix our shit!

Instability? The stability added by adding liquidity into the market and helping calm the situation is a massive help.

You have a perverse sense of stability.

Let me guess, you work in the capital markets and know what stuff such as the CPFF has done to aid in stabilizing the ABCP market?

Please, enlighten me how facilities such as the CPFF hasn't stabilized the market. I'd love to hear your wizened opinion.

What's laughable is that people like you really have no clue how bad it could be. You think that it's bad now but have no concept of alternatives. It's easy to judge in hindsight without considering those alternative universes.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?

I love how you use the maximum commitment amounts as your baseline number you parrot about. How much of the money was actually used? How much was invested versus printed? Huge difference.

Additionally, what is the harm of not doing anything? Global economic collapse? Hey, great fucking idea, everybody goes down because we can't fix our shit!

Instability? The stability added by adding liquidity into the market and helping calm the situation is a massive help.

You have a perverse sense of stability.

Let me guess, you work in the capital markets and know what stuff such as the CPFF has done to aid in stabilizing the ABCP market?

Please, enlighten me how facilities such as the CPFF hasn't stabilized the market. I'd love to hear your wizened opinion.

What's laughable is that people like you really have no clue how bad it could be. You think that it's bad now but have no concept of alternatives. It's easy to judge in hindsight without considering those alternative universes.

I thought nobody had a crystal ball. Apparently you do.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
The problem with "letting the market correct itself" is that just as irrational exuberance takes over on the upside, irrational discouragement takes over on the downside. If anything, history and analysis of the financial markets has shown a preponderance to way over-correct on the downside, causing far more harm than good. In tempering the downside the effect is to provide a floor. Long-term corrections are made, but whether or not we blow up the entire world economy while doing so is the big question.

I contend that you DO NOT print $7 TRILLION in a single year and walk around merrily as if you just did something good for us. It's going to come back to hurt people.

Also, that doesn't even factor in that as long as the market is being meddled in - the only companies to invest in are the ones selected by the government, funded by the government. All the others are going to eat this "over-corrected" punch to the face and flounder while the ones the government doles out cash to will be sitting pretty.

That unnatural prosperity for a select few, directed at the whim of a few men, cannot be properly invested into because a person's whim is more unstable than the conditions of a free market. The instability BY ITSELF will prevent a recovery. Will it not?

I love how you use the maximum commitment amounts as your baseline number you parrot about. How much of the money was actually used? How much was invested versus printed? Huge difference.

Additionally, what is the harm of not doing anything? Global economic collapse? Hey, great fucking idea, everybody goes down because we can't fix our shit!

Instability? The stability added by adding liquidity into the market and helping calm the situation is a massive help.

You have a perverse sense of stability.

Let me guess, you work in the capital markets and know what stuff such as the CPFF has done to aid in stabilizing the ABCP market?

Please, enlighten me how facilities such as the CPFF hasn't stabilized the market. I'd love to hear your wizened opinion.

What's laughable is that people like you really have no clue how bad it could be. You think that it's bad now but have no concept of alternatives. It's easy to judge in hindsight without considering those alternative universes.

I thought nobody had a crystal ball. Apparently you do.

What a pathetically weak dodge. You won't share your incredible amount of market insight with us? You can't tell us, right now, how much these efforts have aided in stabilizing the system? Yet you make such profound statements?

Gosh, you're holding your cards awfully close to your chest. Let me guess, you're a massive market mover and refuse to acknowledge your latest trades in this volatility?

That must be it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
What's missing from these discussions is any recognition of the simple fact that New Deal rules of banking and finance effectively prevented the kind of systemic collapse that has prompted, demanded govt intervention. The financial sector was segmented- Insurance, commercial banking, savings and loan, investment banking and stock brokerages were separate entities, and insurance, commercial banking and S&L's were regulated at a state and federal level. Derivatives were basically non-existent, particularly the more exotic and riskier varieties. Corporate entities were much smaller and more numerous, and what are essentially conflicts of interest in today's system were rendered impossible by the structure of the system itself.

In listening to the advocates of free market consolidation and convergence, we set ourselves up for this kind of crisis. It's not that entities like Citi were too big to fail- they were too big to be allowed to fail, and the few existing are so interdependent that the failure of one basically dictates the failure of them all...

As all of this shakes out, I hope we have the wisdom to force the wheeler-dealers back into a system and a structure that will reflect the need to prevent this kind of stuff in the future, where govt constructs the framework in such a way that further interventions aren't necessary on the scale demanded atm. After the fact rescue efforts are always more difficult than the sort of controls that prevent the need for rescue. Yeh, sure, it limits "growth" to some degree, but not all growth is good. Sometimes that growth turns out to be cancerous...
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
What is laughable is that people think this crisis was caused by free market capitalism. As if people like Ron Paul have been pleased with the way the economy has been run the past 30 years. And I had no idea that GSE's could exist within a free market capitalist system. But I guess war is peace, freedom is slavery, debt is wealth, and Bill Clinton did a good job managing the economy.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
2
61
Debating the economy with Legendkiller is like debating Dick Cheney on foreign policy. His experience is much greater than your's, so you're wrong.