The fiasco that is the Oakland Bay Bridge Span just keeps on getting better.

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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
On opening day I predicted the bridge would end up coming down, I stand by that prediction. That thing is a monument to stupidity, inept management, government waste, and public apathy. It's an embarrassment to the State.
Quoted for truth.

-John
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
For what it is worth, the Federal Government is having a hard time building a Veteran's Hospital here in Denver.

They are something like 8x over budget and approaching 2 Billion dollars for an 11 building, medical complex.

-John
 
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Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
96
86
On opening day I predicted the bridge would end up coming down, I stand by that prediction. That thing is a monument to stupidity, inept management, government waste, and public apathy. It's an embarrassment to the State.


Its ok because it was approved by liberals
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,381
96
86
For what it is worth, the Federal Government is having a hard time tying it's shoes....

I mean building a Veteran's Hospital here in Denver.

They are something like 8x over budget and approaching 2 Billion dollars for an 11 building, medical complex.

-John


Everyone knows the government has endless pockets, so bid up the contracts and get fat.
 

Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
This one is even more egregious, as it is supposed to be a veteran's hospital. There was a recent show on 60 Minutes about how American Veterans were being screwed in health-care. And here's a 2 Billion dollar -- NOT YET -- veteran's health care, medical campus.

-John
 
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Zorkorist

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2007
6,861
3
76
There's something seriously wrong with the system that can't build 11 buildings.

Or a bridge.

-John
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
And will there be another round of handouts for CA if all they do is waste money then ask for assistance

Please educate yourself or else shut up with your bogus claims of bailing out CA when CA has gotten LESS from the fed govt than it has paid, for several decades in a row now (since the 1980s). Places like Mississippi contribute squat compared to places like Silicon Valley:

One of the most hilarious talking points coming from far-right Republicans and the Tea Party is that when “red states” like Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana are asked to bail out California or Massachusetts, that’s when they will finally become “fed up with socialism” and secede from the Union once and for all.

The problem with that meme is that it has no basis in reality: the more prosperous and Democrat-leaning areas of the United States are likely to be subsidizing dysfunctional “red states,” many of which are suffering from insufficient tax revenue and an abundance of low-wage workers who don’t have much to tax. Tea Party Republicans like to point out that poor cities like Detroit, Baltimore and Camden, New Jersey are run by Democrats, but they neglect to mention that some of the most affluent parts of the United States—from Manhattan to the Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay Area to Cambridge, MA to Seattle to Chicago’s North Shore suburbs—are dominated by the Democratic Party. People in those heavily Democratic areas pay a lot of federal income taxes, and quite often, their tax dollars go to red states.


Continued at: http://www.salon.com/2014/09/20/10_red_states_that_mooch_off_the_federal_government_partner/
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Please educate yourself or else shut up with your bogus claims of bailing out CA when CA has gotten LESS from the fed govt than it has paid, for several decades in a row now (since the 1980s). Places like Mississippi contribute squat compared to places like Silicon Valley:

One of the most hilarious talking points coming from far-right Republicans and the Tea Party is that when “red states” like Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana are asked to bail out California or Massachusetts, that’s when they will finally become “fed up with socialism” and secede from the Union once and for all.

The problem with that meme is that it has no basis in reality: the more prosperous and Democrat-leaning areas of the United States are likely to be subsidizing dysfunctional “red states,” many of which are suffering from insufficient tax revenue and an abundance of low-wage workers who don’t have much to tax. Tea Party Republicans like to point out that poor cities like Detroit, Baltimore and Camden, New Jersey are run by Democrats, but they neglect to mention that some of the most affluent parts of the United States—from Manhattan to the Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay Area to Cambridge, MA to Seattle to Chicago’s North Shore suburbs—are dominated by the Democratic Party. People in those heavily Democratic areas pay a lot of federal income taxes, and quite often, their tax dollars go to red states.

Continued at: http://www.salon.com/2014/09/20/10_red_states_that_mooch_off_the_federal_government_partner/

This is one of the dumbest things ever, you basically support abolishing social security. Please educate yourself.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
62,678
11,018
136
There have been problems with that bridge since before construction ever began.



http://www.csus.edu/calst/Journalis...rise/Questions raised on bay bridge tests.pdf

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/08/06/160355/records-indicate-problems-with.html

I remember when the bridge job was getting ready for bids. Lots of issues with the soil analyses, problems with places the bridge pilings were supposed to be built didn't have good enough soil/bedrock to support the load, plus a fuck-ton of construction problems during the building of the bridge...some worker related, some Cal-Trans related...

This is the kind of job I worked for most of my life. It's highly unusual for a job of this size and scope to come in anywhere close to its original bid/estimate. There are ALWAYS a ton of issues/changes that crop up that increase the cost.
My last job was on the retrofit of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge. IIRC, that job was bid at about $485 Million...ended up at close to $1 Billion.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
On opening day I predicted the bridge would end up coming down, I stand by that prediction. That thing is a monument to stupidity, inept management, government waste, and public apathy. It's an embarrassment to the State.
If only they had put you in charge of the project.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
Please educate yourself or else shut up with your bogus claims of bailing out CA when CA has gotten LESS from the fed govt than it has paid, for several decades in a row now (since the 1980s). Places like Mississippi contribute squat compared to places like Silicon Valley:

One of the most hilarious talking points coming from far-right Republicans and the Tea Party is that when “red states” like Mississippi, Alabama and Louisiana are asked to bail out California or Massachusetts, that’s when they will finally become “fed up with socialism” and secede from the Union once and for all.

The problem with that meme is that it has no basis in reality: the more prosperous and Democrat-leaning areas of the United States are likely to be subsidizing dysfunctional “red states,” many of which are suffering from insufficient tax revenue and an abundance of low-wage workers who don’t have much to tax. Tea Party Republicans like to point out that poor cities like Detroit, Baltimore and Camden, New Jersey are run by Democrats, but they neglect to mention that some of the most affluent parts of the United States—from Manhattan to the Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay Area to Cambridge, MA to Seattle to Chicago’s North Shore suburbs—are dominated by the Democratic Party. People in those heavily Democratic areas pay a lot of federal income taxes, and quite often, their tax dollars go to red states.

Continued at: http://www.salon.com/2014/09/20/10_red_states_that_mooch_off_the_federal_government_partner/

You're basically arguing that California is rich because they elect Democrats, Mississippi is poor because they elect Republicans.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Please stop the verbal diarrhea that is currently spewing out from your mouth. Everyone is now dumber for having read your post.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
You're basically arguing that California is rich because they elect Democrats, Mississippi is poor because they elect Republicans.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Please stop the verbal diarrhea that is currently spewing out from your mouth. Everyone is now dumber for having read your post.
But don't Republicans always argue that Detroit, Baltimore, etc are poor because they elect Democrats?
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
There is no shortage of money to be spent elsewhere. The new bridge is an improvement over the old one, so it's a better allocation of resources than construction workers sitting idle and money doing nothing or bidding up asset prices on Wall St, which is what it would have been doing instead.

So you feel that there are no other infrastructure projects in CA that need work for safety issues more.
All roads and bridges are up to standards; No construction has been halted due to lack of funding.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
There have been problems with that bridge since before construction ever began.



http://www.csus.edu/calst/Journalis...rise/Questions raised on bay bridge tests.pdf

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/08/06/160355/records-indicate-problems-with.html

I remember when the bridge job was getting ready for bids. Lots of issues with the soil analyses, problems with places the bridge pilings were supposed to be built didn't have good enough soil/bedrock to support the load, plus a fuck-ton of construction problems during the building of the bridge...some worker related, some Cal-Trans related...

This is the kind of job I worked for most of my life. It's highly unusual for a job of this size and scope to come in anywhere close to its original bid/estimate. There are ALWAYS a ton of issues/changes that crop up that increase the cost.
My last job was on the retrofit of the Richmond-San Rafael bridge. IIRC, that job was bid at about $485 Million...ended up at close to $1 Billion.

I have to ask why are these jobs nowhere near the original bid? I see this often in govt contracts. A bridge, road, rail line will start at x and usually end up costing 2-4x. Not even close.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,884
32,667
136
I have to ask why are these jobs nowhere near the original bid? I see this often in govt contracts. A bridge, road, rail line will start at x and usually end up costing 2-4x. Not even close.

Intentional underbidding, change orders, a lack of qualified contractors, political football, corruption, byzantine procurement and regulation when money comes from a hodgepodge of sources (city, state, feds), actual construction problems, etc.

The Eastern Span replacement was a debacle of epic proportions that can mostly be blamed on local politicians influencing Caltrans and Caltran's own incompetence at running the project itself. It should have been a straight up design-build deal with financial protection for the state but noooo we had to have a unique signature design with complicated features made by Chinese suppliers (QC issues).

I think most projects should be design-build with extensive financial protection for the government. At least then the contractors will give realistic bids.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
I have to ask why are these jobs nowhere near the original bid? I see this often in govt contracts. A bridge, road, rail line will start at x and usually end up costing 2-4x. Not even close.
From experience, most public works projects that involve building something; the contract bid is based on estimates of situational perfection.

A company is under time pressure to provide the bid; that time does not allow a proper evaluation of the project. The cost of preparing the bid also comes out of the companies' overhead. While it might be made up by the winning bidder; the losers have to eat the costs - therefore such costs are kept as low as possible by all.

The winning bidder knows that once they have the project; the government entity is not going to admit that they misjudged the project.

So as long as the company can "JUSTIFY" the added expense; the checks will still come.
And then there will also be scope creep. A new project manager comes on board and wants a different color paint (as an example). As long as he is willing to fund it; the new paint job will be designed, approved and implemented.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,783
6,187
126
:eek:o_O:confused:

wtf are you on drugs? where do you get this shit.

the link flat out says the new bridge is worse that the old one, but not according to your warped sense of reality, you say its better. well prove it.

There is a picture of the old bridge next to the new one in that article as well.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,783
6,187
126
So you feel that there are no other infrastructure projects in CA that need work for safety issues more.
All roads and bridges are up to standards; No construction has been halted due to lack of funding.

If there were, those should have been funded too, in addition to the bridge.
There was no shortage of construction workers and production capacity during the crisis.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
If there were, those should have been funded too, in addition to the bridge.
There was no shortage of construction workers and production capacity during the crisis.

No shortage except of funds allocated to CalTrans
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,783
6,187
126
No shortage except of funds allocated to CalTrans

That's a political issue. Economically, as long as there is slack in labor and production capacity, and interest is below inflation, there should have been even more government spending.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
From experience, most public works projects that involve building something; the contract bid is based on estimates of situational perfection.

A company is under time pressure to provide the bid; that time does not allow a proper evaluation of the project. The cost of preparing the bid also comes out of the companies' overhead. While it might be made up by the winning bidder; the losers have to eat the costs - therefore such costs are kept as low as possible by all.

The winning bidder knows that once they have the project; the government entity is not going to admit that they misjudged the project.

So as long as the company can "JUSTIFY" the added expense; the checks will still come.
And then there will also be scope creep. A new project manager comes on board and wants a different color paint (as an example). As long as he is willing to fund it; the new paint job will be designed, approved and implemented.


Intentional underbidding, change orders, a lack of qualified contractors, political football, corruption, byzantine procurement and regulation when money comes from a hodgepodge of sources (city, state, feds), actual construction problems, etc.

The Eastern Span replacement was a debacle of epic proportions that can mostly be blamed on local politicians influencing Caltrans and Caltran's own incompetence at running the project itself. It should have been a straight up design-build deal with financial protection for the state but noooo we had to have a unique signature design with complicated features made by Chinese suppliers (QC issues).

I think most projects should be design-build with extensive financial protection for the government. At least then the contractors will give realistic bids.


Thanks for the information.

K1052: What do you think is the chance your proposal would see the light of day and be enforced? It just feels like there has to be some kind of cost sharing between the contractor and state when costs exceed the initial bid by so much.
 

cabri

Diamond Member
Nov 3, 2012
3,616
1
81
As long a politicians have some input/influence on the contract, such responsibility will never happen.

the construction lobby has enormous amount of public $$$ to hand out.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
You're basically arguing that California is rich because they elect Democrats, Mississippi is poor because they elect Republicans.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Please stop the verbal diarrhea that is currently spewing out from your mouth. Everyone is now dumber for having read your post.


This is one of the dumbest things ever, you basically support abolishing social security. Please educate yourself.

I didn't bring up this topic in this thread; Cabri did:

Remember when the bridges went down due to an earthquake.

Is there a justifiable need to wait for a recession?

Economics is not paid attention by Mother Nature.

And will there be another round of handouts for CA if all they do is waste money then ask for assistance

He made a flippant remark implying that California asks other states for handouts. It is incumbent on HIM to justify HIS statement. I offered a counterpoint, that is all.

If any of you Cabri apologists wants to defend his statement about "handouts for CA" and make the case that CA a net debtor to the feds, please post your evidence, else stop shooting the messenger.