the false dilemma
- Thread starter ElFenix
- Start date
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
- 0
Biased by despondency I have to wonder who's going to do this? Presumably we'll look to a leader like the next president. I've not heard a fvcking lick out of Obama on oil, certainly nothing meaningful. From McCain I've heard more nuke reactors and a silly little battery prize. I presume he's on board with oil. Definitely this round goes to him, but it's like winning at the special olympics, you're still a retard. Ulterior motives aside, I at least like what this Pickens fellow had to see because I see nobody in government with any clout outraged over something we could actually affect change in.
A big :thumbsup: for a comprehensive energy policy. Bush has blathered on about alternative energy for the past 8 years and done virtually nothing. It's time to get off our collective ass and do something tangible. Plus, we could invest in a bunch of alt energy public works projects (e.g. massive solar array) that would help boost the economy, help reduce unemployment, while producing tangible results.
PingSpike
Lifer
- Feb 25, 2004
- 21,732
- 561
- 126
Its not just Bush. All politicians seem to blather about alternative energy, then do nothing. Our state government says we're going to be the forefront of the "green economy" (which I'm sure every other state in the union has said its going to become) but like our "e-state" idea its more saying something then doing the opposite. They voted to tax wind power generation and did nothing to remove the massive developmental roadblocks that stifle any attempt at its development by private organizations. I bet if an electric car was available for sales they wouldn't be offering any tax credits for buying one...they'd be falling over themselves to pass an increased tax on electric rates to make up for the "lost revenue".
I have several ideas for alternate energy. In addition to attaching generators to the spinning corpses of the founding fathers we could load congress into an incinerator a burn them for fuel.
I have several ideas for alternate energy. In addition to attaching generators to the spinning corpses of the founding fathers we could load congress into an incinerator a burn them for fuel.
Sure he has. Millions(billions?) have gone to big ag for corn ethanol. We get what we pay for with big govt.
As for the OP, certainly a well thought out editorial. Alternative energies are the future not the present. Which is why I have been saying we need to drill more while alternative energies sort themselves out. There is no magical source that will materialize over night. This will take decades. No need hamstringing our economy while the transition happens.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 173
- 106
What "balancing act"?
Just get started doing all of them.
The only "balancing" I see is how much money the federal government is willing to come up with (whether research grants, *prizes* or tax credits) as incentive for alt energy.
I suppose "balancing" comes into play as regards spending money on reducing oil/gas demand (new/better batteries for cars, tax credits for hybrids, credits for convertng cars to natural gas), or renewables for electrical power generation. Two different things IMO; and I much prefer we go after oil/gas reduction 1st. The latter really isn't about the whole high gas price/ national security issue of relying on ME nations etc.
Fern
If increasing drilling were successful at its supposed goal of decreasing oil prices, the decrease would be timed to kill renewable energy and efficiency just as it's getting started, and then when prices increased again people would be in denial about the fossil fuel scarcity being permanent and alternatives would not be developed. The result would be that next time we'd be totally up a creek without a paddle. As it is there are plenty of issued permits for drilling that aren't being used, the whole offshore drilling thing is just a big resource grab by wealthy oil companies that want to buy everything up cheap now before oil prices really go up in a few years (prices will triple by 2012).
The best way to save the people from high fuel prices is to tax oil imports significantly and rebate the money evenly as per the 2008 economic stimulus and exempt the first 40k in income from SS payroll and FICA. Some investors still think that oil prices will crash again, and an import tariff would be the best way to foster more rapid development of renewable replacements for oil. There are a lot of possible replacements for oil and they are not scaling up as rapidly as they could because if they did they would be screwed if oil prices dropped. The critical thing is that the money from an oil import tariff must be used to benefit the poorest 80%, with increases in benefits on those with fixed income on social security, and increased food stamp benefits. Oil prices are doomed to increase in any case, so an import tariff would allow for a smoother transition than the less predictable increases that will happen on their own. An import tariff would also encourage domestic drilling, and should therefore appease those under the delusion that more drilling would help.
The best way to save the people from high fuel prices is to tax oil imports significantly and rebate the money evenly as per the 2008 economic stimulus and exempt the first 40k in income from SS payroll and FICA. Some investors still think that oil prices will crash again, and an import tariff would be the best way to foster more rapid development of renewable replacements for oil. There are a lot of possible replacements for oil and they are not scaling up as rapidly as they could because if they did they would be screwed if oil prices dropped. The critical thing is that the money from an oil import tariff must be used to benefit the poorest 80%, with increases in benefits on those with fixed income on social security, and increased food stamp benefits. Oil prices are doomed to increase in any case, so an import tariff would allow for a smoother transition than the less predictable increases that will happen on their own. An import tariff would also encourage domestic drilling, and should therefore appease those under the delusion that more drilling would help.
lupi
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2001
- 32,539
- 260
- 126
One guys plan is more drilling, build nukes, more clean coal, and research future alternative energy.
The other guy wants no new drilling, no nukes, no coal, and research future energy sources.
I think I'll go for the guy trying to help now and look for a permanent solution for the future than one willing to let us flounder now while waiting for technology.
The other guy wants no new drilling, no nukes, no coal, and research future energy sources.
I think I'll go for the guy trying to help now and look for a permanent solution for the future than one willing to let us flounder now while waiting for technology.
Alternatives to fossil fuels can be made now, there is no need to wait. There is a plant in Carthage, MO that makes about 6000 barrels of oil per month out of agricultural waste, turkey guts. This oil is ready to use as #2 heating oil or diesel fuel. They aren't publishing their costs, but last I heard it was in the vicinity of $80 per barrel to make oil that way, and the method can be applied to most carbon waste, tires, low grade plastics, etc.
There is a company that will retrofit an existing coal plant to use the high carbon dioxide exhaust to accelerate the growth of algae which can then be used to make biodiesel and ethanol. Algea doesn't even need fresh water, you can use dirty ocean water if you're near the coast. This process not only can produce a lot of fuel, but it can reduce the carbon dioxide emitted by a coal plant by 40% at a fairly low cost.
Alternatives to oil are already here, what we need are politicians willing to stop giving money to oil companies, nuke plants and coal, and willing to tax non-renewable fuel users to pay for the damage they cause. Oil dependency is the product of Reagan's energy policy compounded by the whiny domestic auto companies blocking increases in CAFE standards. The country will be much better off if the lot of them go bankrupt, since then nothing will hold back increases in efficiency standards and we might finally get some decent public transit.
Wind power is already far cheaper than nuclear power, and is currently the most cost effective electricity source. Nuclear power is completely obsolete and will never be close to cost competitive with wind power.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Our energy problems have little to do with electrical generating capacity, it has everything to do with oil which is right now, the only viable source for portable power in cars, trucks, and planes. Current ethanol production is now as obsolete as a buggy whip, it used to be marginally viable, but now that corn prices have tripled, forget it.
Once again, I get my energy answers from Rush Limbaugh, who is the best negative barometer in the business.
And the Limbaugh thesis is that free markets work.
And anyone with brain one sees that free markets in the oil area conspire to rip us off.
We are no where near peak oil now, but as opec restricts the supply, prices do indeed rise. Especially when we add in speculators.
While I agree that we will have to open up new areas for drilling, we also have to ask why the 18 million acres already leased to oil companies are not being drilled now.
So I support the democratic plans to say, start a drilling or lose your lease. Because its quite apparent any more leasing will just result bin oil companies locking up leases until a time when oil becomes far more expensive, and then they will slow boat to China drill to keep the supply at a trickle and prices even higher.
Once again, I get my energy answers from Rush Limbaugh, who is the best negative barometer in the business.
And the Limbaugh thesis is that free markets work.
And anyone with brain one sees that free markets in the oil area conspire to rip us off.
We are no where near peak oil now, but as opec restricts the supply, prices do indeed rise. Especially when we add in speculators.
While I agree that we will have to open up new areas for drilling, we also have to ask why the 18 million acres already leased to oil companies are not being drilled now.
So I support the democratic plans to say, start a drilling or lose your lease. Because its quite apparent any more leasing will just result bin oil companies locking up leases until a time when oil becomes far more expensive, and then they will slow boat to China drill to keep the supply at a trickle and prices even higher.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,265
- 126
We did this whole thing once, and I was there for it. After the country started sounding serious about curbing oil consumption and alternative energy, oil prices fell and killed all completion. Oil companies and their lackey's, the politicians, aided in strangling competition to oil. The current generation will mostly likely do the same thing. We already have people complaining about funding research. That took a while longer IIRC.
I have no confidence in the American people to hold their politicians feet to the fire even in times of crisis.
I have no confidence in the American people to hold their politicians feet to the fire even in times of crisis.
Because there is no oil there if there was they would be drilling it. You think with the high oil prices of the last 2 years our oil companies would sit on their asses and let the saudi princes make all the money? If I lease the Sahara to a farmer should I be pissed when most of it goes un used? You expect them to drill where there is no oil or little oil? Just because it was leased does not mean it has oil. The lease is just the start the oil companies then need to survey and explore those areas for oil.
The OP has it exactly right drill and alternative research. Any plan that does not do both is a failure. That is why McCain will get my vote this fall. Take the lease and royalites and use it to fund alternative research and insentives like tax breaks on hybrids. It is not that hard really but 1 party is to scared of the tree huggers. They would rather this country go into a depression than to upset the tree huggers.
The free market is working just as intended. Demand is increasing world wide and supply is not increasing. Prices go up in those situations now if we increase supply to keep up or exceed demand prices will go down. You really think the oil companies wanted oil prices so high just before an election. Basically forcing the canidates to push for alternatives that will put them out of business.
Talk about naivety. If they drill now, then they are in effect conceding. The prospect of new sources of oil would help diminish the fear people have about oil depletion. As long as oil "feels" scarce, they have more power to wring every last dollar out of people.
You really think they would pass on billions of dollars to make oil feel scarce? Come on even the saudi's are upping production to take advantage of the prices. So the oil companies are not only evil but stupid now? They are pumping every barrel they can right now to make lots of money. They will continue to pump oil even when prices drop because they still make lots of money. The american oil companies are small fish in a ocean.
If they drill now they make a shit load of money plain and simple. You lift the ban and the oil companies will get the oil out of the ground in record time. Why because they will make a shit load of money if they do it. That is all the incentive they need money money money.
The pros of lifting the drilling ban far out weigh the cons. It is easy and simple to anyone but those fools in congress.
ericlp
Diamond Member
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,133
- 219
- 106
they would together craft legislation that would encourage domestic energy production and begin a national research program ? on a scale of NASA's successful race to the moon ? to develop clean energy from renewable sources such as wind and sunlight; superefficient batteries in which to store it; and alternative fuels such as hydrogen or some source not yet envisioned.
I believe that alternative energy would fall through the cracks. Face it Bush Had 8 Fucking years to do something about this and all he did was play with his dick for 7.5 years. Why the big rush now? Oh I forgot he was too stupid to see it coming?
Come on! Sheesh, If we can wait 7.5 years to do something, we might as well wait another half a year to see what ideas the next president has to offer. I dunno, bush leaves me with a bad taste and he has F'ked up so much I just don't trust the guy. I'd have to say wait till the next dude that comes in.
The article doesn't even mention you can make hydrogen with solar/wind power. Bush is all talk no action. I don't believe he would get it right.
EDIT, if I were president I'd start off with making cars/refrigerators/AC/Heaters/HotWater/Washers/Dryers more efficient. I believe if 80-90% of Americans had high efficient appliances that would magically cut energy costs by 1/3.
How's that for doing something RIGHT now? Instead of building this cheap crap that sears / home depot and lowes sells, there is absolutely no excuse for not buying a front loader, they are just as cheap as a top loader use only 1/3 of the water, 1/3 of hot water energy, 1/3 of detergent and spins up to 10X faster almost drying the cloths from the spin cycle this makes drying the cloths in less then half the time.
Refrigerators, if we put in about 20-30 bucks more for insulation double walls we could save at least half the cost to run a refrigerator and use LED bulbs inside of it instead of 60Watt HEATERS. Didn't anyone tell you not to put hot food in a refrigerator why would you put two super hot 60 watt bulbs in one? Boy where is the logic in this? If everyone in the USA swapped out their refrigerator light with a 5-10 watt led light it would save billion megawatts per year. Not only would you be saving on power the bulb but your refrigerator wouldn't have to run so much to cool it down.
Simple things like this could really save a lot. Wanna do something NOW? Start doing it NOW. I could give a shit less about drilling oil and waiting 20-30 years for the out come. Can we get a big STUPID award made up for bush *AGAIN* sigh...
I believe that alternative energy would fall through the cracks. Face it Bush Had 8 Fucking years to do something about this and all he did was play with his dick for 7.5 years. Why the big rush now? Oh I forgot he was too stupid to see it coming?
Come on! Sheesh, If we can wait 7.5 years to do something, we might as well wait another half a year to see what ideas the next president has to offer. I dunno, bush leaves me with a bad taste and he has F'ked up so much I just don't trust the guy. I'd have to say wait till the next dude that comes in.
The article doesn't even mention you can make hydrogen with solar/wind power. Bush is all talk no action. I don't believe he would get it right.
EDIT, if I were president I'd start off with making cars/refrigerators/AC/Heaters/HotWater/Washers/Dryers more efficient. I believe if 80-90% of Americans had high efficient appliances that would magically cut energy costs by 1/3.
How's that for doing something RIGHT now? Instead of building this cheap crap that sears / home depot and lowes sells, there is absolutely no excuse for not buying a front loader, they are just as cheap as a top loader use only 1/3 of the water, 1/3 of hot water energy, 1/3 of detergent and spins up to 10X faster almost drying the cloths from the spin cycle this makes drying the cloths in less then half the time.
Refrigerators, if we put in about 20-30 bucks more for insulation double walls we could save at least half the cost to run a refrigerator and use LED bulbs inside of it instead of 60Watt HEATERS. Didn't anyone tell you not to put hot food in a refrigerator why would you put two super hot 60 watt bulbs in one? Boy where is the logic in this? If everyone in the USA swapped out their refrigerator light with a 5-10 watt led light it would save billion megawatts per year. Not only would you be saving on power the bulb but your refrigerator wouldn't have to run so much to cool it down.
Simple things like this could really save a lot. Wanna do something NOW? Start doing it NOW. I could give a shit less about drilling oil and waiting 20-30 years for the out come. Can we get a big STUPID award made up for bush *AGAIN* sigh...
What alternative energy program did clinton/gore implement again in 8 years?
I could care less about bush he is finished in a few months time to forget and move on. Bush will have no impact on this what so ever. If congress gets the ball rolling on domestic drilling it will not stop Obama or McCain from their energy plans. Both are commited to alternative energy no matter who wins there will be billions pumped into alternative research and incentive. This summer has driven the public to the breaking point both sides are on the alternative bandwagon. Sure for different reason but they are on board for the long hall.
If congress acts fast enough maybe we can take advantage of the slide of oil prices the last few days. Lifting the drilling ban might be just enough to burst the bubble and get prices to a point were people can heat their homes this winter.
XMan
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 12,513
- 49
- 91
The main problem with clean sources of power like wind or solar is that they are not steady producers of power. Without a way to store excess power on the electrical grid, wind and solar require auxilliary sources of electricty.
So we're still going to need sources of power . . . the question is, how are we going to generate it? NG? Coal? Still require drilling and mining, which some of the greens don't like. They don't like nuclear plants, either. So we're at an impasse even if we add wind and solar to the grid sources.
So we're still going to need sources of power . . . the question is, how are we going to generate it? NG? Coal? Still require drilling and mining, which some of the greens don't like. They don't like nuclear plants, either. So we're at an impasse even if we add wind and solar to the grid sources.
In that case I'd like to strangle both sides and move on to discussing this with people who aren't complete idiots. Too many people on both sides are looking for the magic bullet, although for vastly different reasons, and nobody wants to do ANYTHING until we have a 100% solution. Or rather, what they REALLY want to do is score political points at the expense of the other side, and solving problems together doesn't do that.
I honestly can't believe you'd call that a "problem" with wind and solar, unless you mean it's a problem because some people think it is. Solar power could provide all of our power some of the time, and while we might need other sources of power when the sun isn't shining, it would still represent a huge drop in non-green energy usage that we'd be retarded to ignore.
Alternative energies aren't going to "sort themselves out" unless we are the ones who sort them out. I have no problem with the gist of what you're saying, but the problem is that the majority of the time it seems to be a cover for doing absolutely nothing except maintaining the status quo. If someone supported the idea of continuing to explore for traditional energy sources while at the same time putting significant effort towards alternative energy research, I'd be all for that. But it seems that the choices are either people who demand instant use of only alternative energy and people who want to drill for oil in the panda enclosure at the national zoo while giving lip service to alternative energy research.
For what it's worth, I think we are...but an information singularity still requires energy to run.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 10K
-
Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)- Started by Vattila
- Replies: 13K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 7K
Facebook
Twitter