the fallacy of a "fair" minimum wage

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CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: conjur
No, closer to $8/hr and then tied to inflation.
That will never work. The government will rig the inflation numbers to keep the payments low. Think it won't happen? Just look at the government's official inflation numbers, then ask any senior on social security if his expenses are rising the same as the government's measurement. To keep SS payments low, the inflation numbers are adjusted downwards. The same thing will happen to inflation-tied minimum wage. Further, the bond market would crash if the official inflation rate was higher since interest rates would have to go up. This is another hit against an inflation-adjusted minimum wage. Just do away with it and let the free-market determine the true pay rate for individuals' skills.

While I agree with your response to conjur's inflation idea - I'm not sure totally doing away with a "minimum wage" would be good either. Many would attempt to take advantage of it(although employment is a choice for both sides), but I think keeping it well below market wages is good so it doesn't have adverse effects on business.

I'm still wondering why conjur thinks $8 is a good number though. Why $8?

CsG
 

CubicZirconia

Diamond Member
Nov 24, 2001
5,193
0
71
Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it.

I don't see how that would be foregoing the free market economy- it would be offering a wage that the employer and employee deem appropriate. This already goes on all the time; it's called hiring illegal workers. Remember that a very small percentage of adults actually make minimum wage. It's not like there would be some catastrophic collapse of the economy if the minimum wage was abolished. Skilled workers would still need to be paid for their skills. It's the unskilled workers that would no longer have their wages artificially propped up by a government imposed price floor. The majority of these unskilled workers would be teenagers without families to feed.

Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

Basic economics. The minimum wage simultaneously increases the supply of labor and decreases the demand for it. This causes a surplus. The surplus in this case being unemployed workers.

Take the example to the extreme to better understand this. Let's say a $50 dollar minimum wage was imposed. Everyone and his brother would want a job. Even the laziest of lazy people would seek out employment. At the same time the increase in minimum wage would greatly increase the cost of labor, leading employers to reduce their demand. What would that cause? Unemployment. The same thing occurs due to the current minimum wage, albeit on a much smaller scale.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81
Mark. Minimum wage is one of my favorite topics and I'm sad that I missed the bulk of discussion...coincidentally, I was off taking the computerized GMAT when the arguments here were really getting interesting :)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,770
6,770
126
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: CubicZirconia
Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it.

I don't see how that would be foregoing the free market economy- it would be offering a wage that the employer and employee deem appropriate. This already goes on all the time; it's called hiring illegal workers. Remember that a very small percentage of adults actually make minimum wage. It's not like there would be some catastrophic collapse of the economy if the minimum wage was abolished. Skilled workers would still need to be paid for their skills. It's the unskilled workers that would no longer have their wages artificially propped up by a government imposed price floor. The majority of these unskilled workers would be teenagers without families to feed.

Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

Basic economics. The minimum wage simultaneously increases the supply of labor and decreases the demand for it. This causes a surplus. The surplus in this case being unemployed workers.

Take the example to the extreme to better understand this. Let's say a $50 dollar minimum wage was imposed. Everyone and his brother would want a job. Even the laziest of lazy people would seek out employment. At the same time the increase in minimum wage would greatly increase the cost of labor, leading employers to reduce their demand. What would that cause? Unemployment. The same thing occurs due to the current minimum wage, albeit on a much smaller scale.

It's it's so "basic" you guys should have no problem proving it right? Of course you can't, since stats bear the exact opposite out. Not only does increasing minimum increase employment the economy does better after he such a rise no inflation occurs either. Why? when more people have more money to spend they actually spend it which benefits the whole enconomy. Why do you think there was so much prosperity under Roosevelt, kennedy, johnston and clinton. Because thier policys put more money in peoples pockets at the bottom. Which grew profits for people at the top..

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We created the minimum wage in 1938. We have raised it from time to time since then. Notable examples would be 1957, 1963, and 1996. Take a look at the inflation numbers for the years immediately following.

http://www.eh.net/hmit/inflation/inflationr.php

Just for good measure lets look at the inflation rate from 1957 through the end of the Johnson administration in 1969.

1957 3.38
1958 2.98
1959 .58
1960 1.72
1961 1.13
1962 1.12
1963 1.10
1964 1.37
1965 1.62
1966 2.92
1967 2.84
1968 4.26
1969 5.29



How about the 1996 increase?

1996 2.96
1997 2.35
1998 1.51
1999 2.21
2000 3.38
2001 2.86



Oh damn. The rate of inflation went down right after these increases in the minimum wage

In 1963, the minimum wage was the highest its ever been in real terms. Did this lead to inflation? Nope. Did this lead to job loss? Sure didn't. Unemployment declined more or less steadily until Lyndon Johnson left office in 1969 -- with an unemployment rate of 3.5 percent.

The 1996 minimum wage increase was followed by declining rates of inflation the first two years, four straight years of 4% GDP growth, and a low unemployment rate of 3.9%.

In 1963 we raised the minimum wage to the equivalent in current dollars of 8.00 an hour. Did it lead to inflation? Nope, sure didn't. In fact, 1963 was the front end of a major economic boom, which resulted by 1969 in 3.5 percent unemployment. "But that was the 1960's. Things are different now." Really. Well how about 1996, when we raised the minimum wage to its current level. This was followed by four straight years of 4 % growth in GDP and a low unemployment rate of 3.9 percent by the spring of 2000. This also pretty much lets the air out of the old "they'll just ship jobs overseas" argument -- something they wouldn't be able to do if we had sane trade policies and didn't promote right-wing sweat-shop economies in the third world.

It may be that I have "no understanding of economics at all", but I know when historical facts refute a dittohead's even punier understanding of the subject. Never let a cheap-labor dittohead like this joker get away with his posture of intellectual superiority. Not only is he not smarter than you, he's actually a moron. The proof is that he will absolutely not let these historical facts get in the way of his ideology. You see he has a "theory" that goes something like this: Employers will follow an increase in wages paid with a dollar for dollar increase in prices -- which leads to an upward wage/price spiral. Make sense?

Right here is a good place to say something I plan to start harping on. Facts ought to be enough, but they aren't. This guy will persist is this nonsense, trying to "explain away" these inconvenient facts. ....


It turns out the theoretical reason the dittohead is wrong is not that hard to understand. You see, he forgot about something. Consider the "burger flipper" -- a job that can't be exported to the third world. This is the cheap-labor conservative paradigm for the "undeserving" wage earner. In fact, you can hear the sneer in the dittohead's post. You see, flipping burgers is strictly "low skill" work. So the cheap labor conservatives reason that such labor is undeserving of decent compensation. Sounds good, until you ask yourself, "well, who makes the hamburgers McDonald's sells?" Why, that burger flipper. Here is the subtext of the conservative argument. Write this down, because it cuts right to the heart of it. You see, McDonald's investers "deserve" to profit off of the labor of the burger flipper. But the burger flipper doesn't "deserve" to profit off of his own labor. At bottom, that's what they're saying. They deserve to profit from your efforts more than you do.

As for the fact this dittohead overlooked, here it is. McDonald's has competition, namely places like Burger King and Wendy's. Now let's ask this cheap-labor professor of economics a question. What is the value of competition in the free market? He won't take two seconds to tell you. Competition holds prices down. That's why McDonald's won't just automatically raise prices. Because if Burger King doesn't follow suit, then Burger King will steal market share from McDonald's and make up for the wage increase in volume. Since it is unlikely that Burger King employees are working at full capacity, an increase in sales volume will also lower the unit cost, raised by the increase in wages. As for McDonald's, their increase in prices will lead to declining sales volume, and make the increase in unit cost even worse.

Thus, you can see how the best strategy for a business with competition, like fast food chains, might be to "stand pat", since the one who raises his prices might actually lose out.

But wait, it gets better. Since competition holds down prices, that increase in wages boosts real disposible income -- from the bottom right on up the economic ladder. It does so across the board, nationwide. You see, the economy isn't a "zero sum game" -- as conservatives point out from time to time. "The rising tide lifts all boats." This leads to an overall iincrease in sales volume for McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, and every other fast food joint -- as it does for the the tens of thousands of other similar businesses nationwide. This increase in volume, once again lowers unit cost restoring the orginal profit margins, while the increase in volume yields higher overall earnings. In other words, everybody wins.

From which follows increased investment, more hiring, lower unemployment, and still higher wages as full employment dries up the labor pool. This is yet another illustration of why "low wage" economies are in fact stagnant third world shitholes, and why cheap-labor conservatives can't point to one single example of a "cheap labor paradise".


You see, the booms following the 1963 and 1996 increases in minimum wage -- among other similar examples -- weren't "unusual" at all. It is entirely consistent with sound economic theory. Cheap-labor conservatives who claim that wage increases are inflationary, don't know what they're talking about. Now you know how to prove it.


First of all, when some "dittohead" sneers at a "burger flipper" ask him this. "If McDonald's shareholders can profit from the labor of a burger flipper, why shouldn't he profit from his own labor?"

That's why we had a minimum wage equivalent of 8.00 an hour in 1963, with 25% of the work force unionized [compared to 11% today], and one of the greatest periods of economic prosperity in American history. McDonald's was in business in those days. In fact, they were quite profitable." You might also throw in my personal favorite "show me one minimalist government, cheap-labor paradise".

Don't forget those historical facts and real-world examples. They are what give weight to your position, as you ridicule the dime-store economics of the cheap-labor conservatives. The best they'll be able to do is call you a "communist" -- which leads to another good riposte from a progressive at harmony-central. "So we were living under communism in the 1960's were we?"

TextText
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: HalosPuma
Originally posted by: Zebo
interferes with the free-market.

Everything the government does interfears with the "free market" I don't hear you crying about protecting pharma companies profits in the form of patents and federal agents to enforce those patents. There are at least a million other examples I can give you where the governemnt is mingeling in the "free market" but I let you use your noodle.


Heh, I own drug companies in my portfolio, as well as oil. It is defined in our Constitution that one of government's roles is to protect the works of inviduals and authors via copyrights and patents. I see nothing wrong with patents. The individual/corporation took a risk and now should have a monopoly on it for a fixed amount of time to realize the profits. Again, there are only 2 reasons why people innovate: (a) profit; (b) survival. Why would a drug company spend billions trying to come up with new drugs if they can be ripped off and revere-engineered as soon as they are released? The results - no one would innovate.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 8:
The Congress shall have the Power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries

I suggested you use your noodle but you refuse. Instead posting consitituion which I can just as easily do to justify min wage under the tenants of general welfare.

How does that change the fact it's not "free markert". Nor are SBA loans, insured by governemnt people used by people to open businesses everyday and pay minimum wage. Nor is our system of banking where money is created out of thin air. Nor Corporation laws which allow investors to pool assests with legal immunity. Nor are FHA loans again insured by governemnt. And on and on. You guys would'nt know "free market" if it hit you upside your head I think.

What you really mean if the government provides infrastructure and services that benefit and protect the wealthy you have no problem with it. But do have a problem providing infrastructure and services that benefit regular people.

Problem here, is you provide the first w/o the second it leads to an economic coercive enviroment for people at the bottom. aka "stuck in a rut" with ever decreasing access to capital and wages as generations go by. And generally turns the economy into the shitter just like any other "low wage" paradise.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

That would never happen in this country moonie due to conservatives/peoples love of masochism. Good read:

Conservatives believe in social hierarchy. That is what defines them. Once you understand that, some of the apparent contradictions in their rhetoric begin to make sense. In fact, social darwinism is the last gasp of a social order that is thousands of years old. The leading theorist for capitalist social darwinism is Ayn Rand, the writer who has become ?the fountainhead? of neoconservative thinking. She didn?t invent the philosophy, she dressed it up and made it look respectable. Her philosophy amounts to applied Friedrich Nietzsche.

A neat picture of the natural hierarchy of the conservative?s imagination can be found by reading Atlas Shrugged. The premise of the story is that a number of industrialist tycoons grow tired of living in a society that places any demands on them. They are ?ubermenschen?, you see, whose great intelligence and vision has built society. They are the natural leaders, put upon by a society that doesn?t appreciate them. So they all go off to some valley in Colorado. Of course these capitalist ?supermen? can?t do anything for themselves, so they take with them a workforce who understand their place in the natural order. On this island, they reestablish an industrial paradise, while the rest of the world devolves into neo-stone age barbarism. These industrial leaders of course, are the only one?s capable of furnishing any industrial leadership. The wage earners ? who labor in their vineyards ? are morons incapable of self-government. Apparently, no one has the brains or the initiative, to assume leadership of their abandoned enterprises.

This theory of elites is nothing new. The story is nothing but an imaginative answer to the question the likes of Marie Antoinette asked when confronted with the demands for social equality. ?What would they do without us?? Interestingly, a placed called the United States serves as a pretty good answer to that question. This country was not founded by the economic elite of Europe. It was built by peasants getting away from them. In fact, Atlas Shrugged is the story of America, stood on its head. It was wholesale members of the landless proletariat who fled England, then Ireland, then Germany, then Italy, then Eastern Europe and now Southeast Asia and Mexico. These are the people ? freed from an oppressive social hierarchy ? who built a democratic and prosperous nation out of the wilderness. Anytime our corrupt corporate elite wants to move to a desert island, I?ll help them pack. They don?t even have to pay me.

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Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81

I have heard this advocated several times by Kerry - raise the minimum wage to give the working poor a "fair" salary. Nonsense. Minimum wage (a) causes unemployment and (b) interferes with the free-market.

To address unemployment - where do these politicians and poor people think the money will come from?
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From people who have more money to spend now


Do they think Big Corp, Inc. has wads of cash in the bank?
----------------
No, most smart businessmen use the banks money or stockholders to finance thier endevors


I ran a small business business and can tell you firsthand the very first thing we cut when we have a "rough patch" is salaries. There is only a fixed amount available for salaries and other expenses cannot be shifted over - rent, power, vendors, etc. are all fixed costs.
----------------
Ran, what happened? Failure? Seems your knowledge about business was'nt adequte or you'd still be in biz right? what happend? cheap-labor-conservatives created and enviroment where no one could buy your "product"? Please do tell.

Therefore, if everyone is making minimum wage and it is then raised, some will have to be terminated so their salaries can be split up amongst the others.

Very simply: assume minimum wage is $5.00/hour and Kerry wants to raise it to $7.50/hour; an employee works 2,000 hours/year; annual minimum age salary is $10,000; Kerry's proposed annual minimum wage salary is $15,000. If the budget for salaries is $100,000 then 10 people are currently employed @ $5 minimum wage. If it's raised, then only 6 people keep their jobs and 4 are terminated. This destroys the small business and soon the other 6 will join the unemployed.
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Blah blah blah, your forgetting again, more income coming in to peoples pockets is more disposable income which grow biz and economy as I posted earlier

As for the free-market - if an employer and potential employee agree that his skill is worth only $4/hour, then that is fair. Neither side is exploited. This was the case when I just started high school and mowed lawns. Paying me minimum wage was too much, but I was happy to work for less.
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LOL, Boy you are a business failure, I made about $600 every weekend when I mowed lawns in JrHS and HS. Less than minimum wage?? Give me a break. Unless of course you live in a cheap-labor state where no one has any cash to let you mow your lawn and if so at subsistance wages.

After all, I was making money and, more importantly, learning life's lessons.
-----------------------
Like what? How to start yet another unsucessful business mentioned above? Or just that you suck at mowing lawns?


Unfortunately, by forcing an employer to pay at least $5/hour or $7.50/hour, those with little or no skills remain permanently unemployed. It also encourages hiring of illegal Mexicans - both the employer and "employee" (illegal Mexican) agree on a fair price which is less than Big Government, Inc.'s minimum standard.
------------------
No what "encourages" businesses to hire illegals is the rules/fines are not enforced. Memebers of my family runs several sucessful businesses (we only needed one shot) and we hire illegals in all the time becasue I-9 simply is'nt enforced. A law that is'nt enforced is'nt a law but a suggestion which compitition overrides. Similarly even at minimum wage, we still farm out manufacturing to china becasue they charge $100 a month and minimum wage is $1200 mo here with payroll taxes and benefits. Are you sugessting people should work for $100 a month here in order to compete with the third world dung heaps?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
I suggested you use your noodle but you refuse. Instead posting consitituion which I can just as easily do to justify min wage under the tenants of general welfare.

One could argue just about anything under "general welfare". The point? It also can be argued that it doesn't fall under that part. Basically it comes down to whether you want gov't to control wages or not. I don't - but as I said earlier, I'll compromise with the gov't control supporters and say that I'll support it as long as it's far below average market value for entry level wages.

What do you think min wage should be Zebo? and why?

CsG
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

Well heck, if they make it 25 and it brings everyone out of poverty - why not make it 50 so everyone will be "rich"?

CsG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.

You are talking "living wage". Do you really think minimum wage should be a living wage? why?

CsG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

Well heck, if they make it 25 and it brings everyone out of poverty - why not make it 50 so everyone will be "rich"?

CsG

I would'nt go that far. Everythings not about extremes. Lifes about balance. Not so poor person can not afford basic nessities when working or pay for education to better their lot in life. And Not so rich they don't have one of the incentives (real money) to excel.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.

You are talking "living wage". Do you really think minimum wage should be a living wage? why?

CsG

I've stated several times why. In that post you just quoted in fact.
Bottom up prosperity. Not to mention strong communities, low crime. and all the other good things people with decent wages bless thier community with since they have a vested intrest now.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.

You are talking "living wage". Do you really think minimum wage should be a living wage? why?

CsG

I've stated several times why. In that post you just quoted in fact.
Bottom up prosperity. Not to mention strong communities, low crime. and all the other good things people with decent wages bless thier community with since they have a vested intrest now.

No, I asked if you think "living wage" should be the minimum wage. But lets say you said yes directly and move on to the "why".

"Why" should a teenager earn the same as someone supporting a family of four?
"Why" don't you think people would flood bigger cities(even moreso) if this were nation wide?
"Who" sets these figures?
"How" much is "enough"?
"Why" is "enough" enough and not "more" "enough"?
"Why" don't you think inflation(atleast on the local level) would be affected if this happened?

Lets address those for now.:)

CsG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.

You are talking "living wage". Do you really think minimum wage should be a living wage? why?

CsG

I've stated several times why. In that post you just quoted in fact.
Bottom up prosperity. Not to mention strong communities, low crime. and all the other good things people with decent wages bless thier community with since they have a vested intrest now.

No, I asked if you think "living wage" should be the minimum wage. But lets say you said yes directly and move on to the "why".

"Why" should a teenager earn the same as someone supporting a family of four?
"Why" don't you think people would flood bigger cities(even moreso) if this were nation wide?
"Who" sets these figures?
"How" much is "enough"?
"Why" is "enough" enough and not "more" "enough"?
"Why" don't you think inflation(atleast on the local level) would be affected if this happened?

Lets address those for now.:)

CsG

Before we begin what this "living wage" you keep quoting? Until it's defined I can't answer.

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Zebo
How much (and why).

Whatever it takes to buy a median family home (benefits home builders and more employment) and raise a family of four (more food sales increasing grocery stocks and profits) in your local. Ca would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. Etc.

You are talking "living wage". Do you really think minimum wage should be a living wage? why?

CsG

I've stated several times why. In that post you just quoted in fact.
Bottom up prosperity. Not to mention strong communities, low crime. and all the other good things people with decent wages bless thier community with since they have a vested intrest now.

No, I asked if you think "living wage" should be the minimum wage. But lets say you said yes directly and move on to the "why".

"Why" should a teenager earn the same as someone supporting a family of four?
"Why" don't you think people would flood bigger cities(even moreso) if this were nation wide?
"Who" sets these figures?
"How" much is "enough"?
"Why" is "enough" enough and not "more" "enough"?
"Why" don't you think inflation(atleast on the local level) would be affected if this happened?

Lets address those for now.:)

CsG

Before we begin what this "living wage" you keep quoting? Until it's defined I can't answer.

That's what I'm trying to figure out. The concept of "living wage" is that the area determines what the lowest pay is. Activists have been yapping about it for years and try to force it on communities. The forumula(if there really is one) varies from place to place so I'm not sure how one defines "living wage" except in concept form - which is a variable "minimum wage" set by an area's supposed "cost".

It's precisely what you are suggesting here - different places have different "minimum wages".

Now what I'm trying to do is figure out what/why YOU think it's good and how it should work.


"Why" should a teenager earn the same as someone supporting a family of four?
"Why" don't you think people would flood bigger cities(even moreso) if this were nation wide?
"Who" sets these figures?
"How" much is "enough"?
"Why" is "enough" enough and not "more" "enough"?
"Why" don't you think inflation(atleast on the local level) would be affected if this happened?

CsG
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81


Now what I'm trying to do is figure out what/why YOU think it's good and how it should work.
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My interpretation is like I suggested before in post above. "Whatever it takes to buy a median family home and raise a family of four your local with nessesities. Basic Food requirments, basic transportation and basic utilites...gas, power, water.. Ca, I think, would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. and so on.

"Why" should a teenager earn the same as someone supporting a family of four?
--------------------------
Why not if he/she is doing same work?


"Why" don't you think people would flood bigger cities(even moreso) if this were nation wide?
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I don't care or see how it's relevant to the discussion. Move where you will.

"Who" sets these figures?
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Government economists. How about the FED they set intrest rates and lots of other things after all seems they know a lot about what it takes and have access to great amounts of fiqures to dirive my version of living wage?

"How" much is "enough"?
-------------------
Whatever it takes to buy a median family home and raise a family of four your local with nessesities. Basic Food requirments, basic transportation and basic utilites...gas, power, water.. Ca, I think, would be about $30 an hour. Oklahoma would be about $14. and so on.


"Why" is "enough" enough and not "more" "enough"?
-------------------------------
That's to everyones interprtation. I think my fiqures reprsent a nice balance between destitute and fighing chance to succeed you may feel different.. Simply...
Not so poor person can not afford basic nessities when working or pay for education to better their lot in life. And Not so rich they don't have one of the incentives (real money) to excel.

"Why" don't you think inflation(atleast on the local level) would be affected if this happened?
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I've already shown above the inflation arguement is manufactured. No proof of such an occurance. in fact opposite is proven. Inflation goes down and economy booms. Stands to reason since more money is now in circulation by more peoples.



 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
Before we begin what this "living wage" you keep quoting? Until it's defined I can't answer.

Neocons wouldn't understand that term as they are comprised of Rich Elitists not affected by Corporations treating them like Scum because they are usually the one doing the treating of employees like Scum.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I'm still wondering why conjur thinks $8 is a good number though. Why $8?
CsG

Nawwww, roll it back to say 40 cents an hour, still double that of China but lower than India that out to keep the Neocons happy for a little while.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Zebo
Before we begin what this "living wage" you keep quoting? Until it's defined I can't answer.

Neocons wouldn't understand that term as they are comprised of Rich Elitists not affected by Corporations treating them like Scum because they are usually the one doing the treating of employees like Scum.

real rich are liberals ....see warren buffet..soros..gates. They understand how the economy works and it's to thier benefit to have more people with money to give them and like living in a civil society. It's only those who managed to eek into wealth or millionaire wannabes that have this world view.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,770
6,770
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

Well heck, if they make it 25 and it brings everyone out of poverty - why not make it 50 so everyone will be "rich"?

CsG

You can be so stupid sometimes, Caddy, it's just beyond belief. People wouldn't be able to get to work with all the yachts boats and trailers and RVs parked all over the streets or driving or being towed around.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Zebo
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: Zebo
Before we begin what this "living wage" you keep quoting? Until it's defined I can't answer.

Neocons wouldn't understand that term as they are comprised of Rich Elitists not affected by Corporations treating them like Scum because they are usually the one doing the treating of employees like Scum.

real rich are liberals ....see warren buffet..soros..gates. They understand how the economy works and it's to thier benefit to have more people with money to give them and like living in a civil society. It's only those who managed to eek into wealth or millionaire wannabes that have this world view.

Try asking Buffet if he is happy with how things have been going???

 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

Well heck, if they make it 25 and it brings everyone out of poverty - why not make it 50 so everyone will be "rich"?

CsG

You can be so stupid sometimes, Caddy, it's just beyond belief. People wouldn't be able to get to work with all the yachts boats and trailers and RVs parked all over the streets or driving or being towed around.

:D
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
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www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
25 dollars an hour is much better than 8 dollars an hour. 25 should be minimum. No more poverty.

Well heck, if they make it 25 and it brings everyone out of poverty - why not make it 50 so everyone will be "rich"?

CsG

You can be so stupid sometimes, Caddy, it's just beyond belief. People wouldn't be able to get to work with all the yachts boats and trailers and RVs parked all over the streets or driving or being towed around.

Ah right, so minimum wage should be tied to your convenience?:confused:

CsG