the fallacy of a "fair" minimum wage

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
I ran a dot-com. Actually, we had less than 'X' dollars for employees - we were in the red. Granted, no one was paid minimum wage, but we could not cut any other expense. We were already had redone the hardware leases, the software licenses, the building lease, etc., and cut out all non-essential expenses. The only "variable" expense was salaries. With other firms going under, it wasn't too hard for us to cut salaries and still keep the programmers around.

I'm not sure how that example pretains to the minimum wage. I highly doubt you were paying your programmers anywhere near minimum wage, and thus, and increase in minimum wage should have no effect on your example. You're not required to raise your wages if they already exceed the minimum wage.

I understand your point though. But I just don't any shortage of minimum wage jobs out there. You fire those employees you can't afford at the new wage, I really doubt they'll have that hard of a time finding another burger flipping job or a night cashier position. Even Bush is saying we need to ship Mexicans in to fill these positions.

There isn't a shortage of crappy low paying jobs. There's a shortage of jobs that pay a liveable wage. Even if you're right...and it does cause loss of jobs...what kind of jobs exactly are we going to be losing? Not one's I could live on, thats for sure.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28
$20 says that HalosPuma is a regular neocon troll that has been recently banned and is using a second account.

Take a look at the Libertarian Party platform on minimum wage:

3. Tear down barriers to entrepreneurism and economic growth

Almost everyone agrees that a job is better than any welfare program. Yet for years this country has pursued tax and regulatory policies that seem perversely designed to discourage economic growth and reduce entrepreneurial opportunities. Someone starting a business today needs a battery of lawyers just to comply with the myriad of government regulations from a virtual alphabet soup of government agencies: OSHA, EPA, FTC, CPSC, etc. Zoning and occupational licensing laws are particularly damaging to the type of small businesses that may help people work their way out of poverty.

In addition, government regulations such as minimum wage laws and mandated benefits drive up the cost of employing additional workers. We call for the repeal of government regulations and taxes that are steadily cutting the bottom rungs off the economic ladder.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

$0. Nada. Nothing. This is a very simple concept. Two people - an employer and employee - have the freedom to decide what the employee's skill is worth and come to an agreement. This is exactly how the stock market works. Two people - a seller and a buyer - determine what the fair price of the stock is and come to an agreement. There is no government intervention saying that the stock cannot be sold for less than $5/share.

What about internships? Interns make nothing, yet you don't see the liberals complaining about that. And what about high school kids? Some pimply-faced kid with no experience is not worth $7.50/hour for his non-existant skills. He is worth, however, a few bucks an hour to carry around boxes in the storeroom, etc. until he becomes familiar with how the company works.

As for a family getting by on $5/hour, that is not the issue, nor was it ever, nor do I care. Life is tough, deal with it.

If I ran a construction company, I may consider hiring illegal Mexicans and pay them a lower free-market wage than hire Americans and pay them some outrageous government-mandated wage which is more than the skills they bring to the job. Remember - many companies are already doing this. People will always find ways around illegal and immoral government regulations.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Minimum is over $7 an hour here in Oregon. We're doing fine.

Are you? Oregon has one of the worst (if not still the worst) employment markets in the country.

Now IIRC there are states with a higher minimum wage, but it's certainly a contributing factor.

Minimum wage is an artificial control on what should be a free market.

Besides, here in PA where the federal minimum wage is still king McDonald's in a tiny ass town (Canonsburg, where I live) is hiring at $7.05.

Viper GTS

 

[conjur]

Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

 

[CubicZirconia]

According to the 2 year old econ textbook I have sitting in front of me, less than 3% of people over the age of 30 make minimum wage. Although minimum wage laws do cause unemployment, most of that is going to be among teenage workers, not adults with families.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

$0. Nada. Nothing. This is a very simple concept. Two people - an employer and employee - have the freedom to decide what the employee's skill is worth and come to an agreement. This is exactly how the stock market works. Two people - a seller and a buyer - determine what the fair price of the stock is and come to an agreement. There is no government intervention saying that the stock cannot be sold for less than $5/share.

What about internships? Interns make nothing, yet you don't see the liberals complaining about that. And what about high school kids? Some pimply-faced kid with no experience is not worth $7.50/hour for his non-existant skills. He is worth, however, a few bucks an hour to carry around boxes in the storeroom, etc. until he becomes familiar with how the company works.

As for a family getting by on $5/hour, that is not the issue, nor was it ever, nor do I care. Life is tough, deal with it.

If I ran a construction company, I may consider hiring illegal Mexicans and pay them a lower free-market wage than hire Americans and pay them some outrageous government-mandated wage which is more than the skills they bring to the job. Remember - many companies are already doing this. People will always find ways around illegal and immoral government regulations.

You are pretty boring and rather predictible. Not interested in entertaining your foolishness any longer especially if you feel there needs to be NO minimum wage.

Next...

 

[CubicZirconia]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

$0. Nada. Nothing. This is a very simple concept. Two people - an employer and employee - have the freedom to decide what the employee's skill is worth and come to an agreement. This is exactly how the stock market works. Two people - a seller and a buyer - determine what the fair price of the stock is and come to an agreement. There is no government intervention saying that the stock cannot be sold for less than $5/share.

What about internships? Interns make nothing, yet you don't see the liberals complaining about that. And what about high school kids? Some pimply-faced kid with no experience is not worth $7.50/hour for his non-existant skills. He is worth, however, a few bucks an hour to carry around boxes in the storeroom, etc. until he becomes familiar with how the company works.

As for a family getting by on $5/hour, that is not the issue, nor was it ever, nor do I care. Life is tough, deal with it.

If I ran a construction company, I may consider hiring illegal Mexicans and pay them a lower free-market wage than hire Americans and pay them some outrageous government-mandated wage which is more than the skills they bring to the job. Remember - many companies are already doing this. People will always find ways around illegal and immoral government regulations.

You are pretty boring and rather predictible. Not interested in entertaining your foolishness any longer especially if you feel there needs to be NO minimum wage.

Next...

His arguments make perfect sense (regarding this thread at least) and you're not doing anything to prove them wrong. It's called a free market- we're supposed to have one.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CubicZirconia

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: umbrella39
I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

$0. Nada. Nothing. This is a very simple concept. Two people - an employer and employee - have the freedom to decide what the employee's skill is worth and come to an agreement. This is exactly how the stock market works. Two people - a seller and a buyer - determine what the fair price of the stock is and come to an agreement. There is no government intervention saying that the stock cannot be sold for less than $5/share.

What about internships? Interns make nothing, yet you don't see the liberals complaining about that. And what about high school kids? Some pimply-faced kid with no experience is not worth $7.50/hour for his non-existant skills. He is worth, however, a few bucks an hour to carry around boxes in the storeroom, etc. until he becomes familiar with how the company works.

As for a family getting by on $5/hour, that is not the issue, nor was it ever, nor do I care. Life is tough, deal with it.

If I ran a construction company, I may consider hiring illegal Mexicans and pay them a lower free-market wage than hire Americans and pay them some outrageous government-mandated wage which is more than the skills they bring to the job. Remember - many companies are already doing this. People will always find ways around illegal and immoral government regulations.

You are pretty boring and rather predictible. Not interested in entertaining your foolishness any longer especially if you feel there needs to be NO minimum wage.

Next...

His arguments make perfect sense (regarding this thread at least) and you're not doing anything to prove them wrong. It's called a free market- we're supposed to have one.

The government that does allow a minimum wage proves him wrong and I never replied to his OP, only CaD's question. Not my job to prove something wrong that is in fact, reality. Tired of the free market argument when it applies to something the right finds worthy. I don't hear many republicans arguing for a maximum wage for CEO's.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

IMO, it should be set at a level that would allow at least a poverty-level wage and then be tied to the rate of inflation. Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it. And, those people would be living at third-world country poverty levels with no healthcare coverage.

The minimum wage was increased in the 90s and no ill effects resulted. Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

IMO, it should be set at a level that would allow at least a poverty-level wage and then be tied to the rate of inflation. Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it. And, those people would be living at third-world country poverty levels with no healthcare coverage.

The minimum wage was increased in the 90s and no ill effects resulted. Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

 

[Moonbeam]

I would set the minimum wage at 25 dollars an hour and close the borders and make it illegal to hire anybody illegal.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

IMO, it should be set at a level that would allow at least a poverty-level wage and then be tied to the rate of inflation. Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it. And, those people would be living at third-world country poverty levels with no healthcare coverage.

The minimum wage was increased in the 90s and no ill effects resulted. Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

No, closer to $8/hr and then tied to inflation.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: conjur
Hmm...did the minimum wage increase in 96/97 cause inflation or unemployment?

Give this a read:
http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/issuebriefs_ib130b

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

IMO, it should be set at a level that would allow at least a poverty-level wage and then be tied to the rate of inflation. Without a minimum wage, we'd see some companies move to extremes and forego the "free market economy" and offer piss-poor wages and only the very desperate or illegal immigrants would take it. And, those people would be living at third-world country poverty levels with no healthcare coverage.

The minimum wage was increased in the 90s and no ill effects resulted. Increasing the minimum and leading to unemployment is purely FUD from the corporate lobbyists.

So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

No, closer to $8/hr and then tied to inflation.

Why $8?

CsG

 

[ReiAyanami]

wages should be denominated in Euros or oil certificates, that way in case the dollar ever collapses poor ppl won't get stuck with the bill

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

What do you think it should be?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

What do you think it should be?

I've already answered if you would have read the thread.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

CsG

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

What do you think it should be?

I've already answered if you would have read the thread.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

CsG

Oh, didn't see that. So you don't think it should, at minimum, rise with inflation? We're only talking about 3% a year.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
So you think it should be $5.15 and directly tied to inflation?

CsG

What do you think it should be?

I've already answered if you would have read the thread.

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

CsG

Oh, didn't see that. So you don't think it should, at minimum, rise with inflation? We're only talking about 3% a year.

No, I don't thing the gov't should tell employers how much to pay their employees. Do the rest of people get a 3% guaranteed raise each year even if they didn't earn one?

Anyway, back to the what should it be and why question.

CsG

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I would set the minimum wage at 25 dollars an hour and close the borders and make it illegal to hire anybody illegal.

So a minimum wage job that requires little to no skill such as flipping burgers or mowing a lawn or greeting customers at a store is worth $50,000?!?! My god man, the corporation I work doesn't even pay the Indian programmers $50,000/year and they are doing highly skilled work. Sorry, it won't work at all. That piece of legislation would send us headfirst into a depression.

Also, it already is illegal to hire illegals. Just like it is illegal to drink alcohol if you are under 21, smoke if you are under 18, and consume "controlled substances" (drugs). Guess what, it still happens. Welcome to the real world. Economics and the free-market cannot be controlled by government, no matter how hard the people try.

 

[Zebo]

interferes with the free-market.

Everything the government does interfears with the "free market" I don't hear you crying about protecting pharma companies profits in the form of patents and federal agents to enforce those patents. There are at least a million other examples I can give you where the governemnt is mingeling in the "free market" but I let you use your noodle.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: conjur
No, closer to $8/hr and then tied to inflation.

That will never work. The government will rig the inflation numbers to keep the payments low. Think it won't happen? Just look at the government's official inflation numbers, then ask any senior on social security if his expenses are rising the same as the government's measurement. To keep SS payments low, the inflation numbers are adjusted downwards. The same thing will happen to inflation-tied minimum wage. Further, the bond market would crash if the official inflation rate was higher since interest rates would have to go up. This is another hit against an inflation-adjusted minimum wage. Just do away with it and let the free-market determine the true pay rate for individuals' skills.

 

[Rob9874]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

No, I don't thing the gov't should tell employers how much to pay their employees. Do the rest of people get a 3% guaranteed raise each year even if they didn't earn one?

AMEN! Minimum wage should be kept at the same economic value each year (i.e., rise with inflation). If minimum wage rate for 1 hour of work can buy you a happy meal in 2004, it should be the same as a happy meal in 2014.

Don't you think inflation is affected my minimum wage? An extreme example to make a point: If everyone in the country made $200,000 as a minimum, don't you think the value of the dollar would be less? The same reason the US govt doesn't just print more money to pay off the national debt (which I'm sure some libs think would be a good idea). It doesn't work that way.

 

[HalosPuma]

Originally posted by: Zebo

interferes with the free-market.

Everything the government does interfears with the "free market" I don't hear you crying about protecting pharma companies profits in the form of patents and federal agents to enforce those patents. There are at least a million other examples I can give you where the governemnt is mingeling in the "free market" but I let you use your noodle.

Heh, I own drug companies in my portfolio, as well as oil. It is defined in our Constitution that one of government's roles is to protect the works of inviduals and authors via copyrights and patents. I see nothing wrong with patents. The individual/corporation took a risk and now should have a monopoly on it for a fixed amount of time to realize the profits. Again, there are only 2 reasons why people innovate: (a) profit; (b) survival. Why would a drug company spend billions trying to come up with new drugs if they can be ripped off and revere-engineered as soon as they are released? The results - no one would innovate.

Article I, Section 8, Clause 8:
The Congress shall have the Power ... To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries