the fallacy of a "fair" minimum wage

[gutharius]

you obviously don't know what you're getting taxed for. It is not income tax, its medicare and social security. Sorry bud, you're wrong.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
What part of this says minimum wage? I don't make minimum wage nor could I or anyone else survive on that.

 

[0roo0roo]

everything causes unemployment. safetly standards, health standards, pollution standards, age standards etc

 

[Ferocious]

In a true market economy, there is no need for a minimum wage. It should not exist.

But a vibrant middle class will NEVER exist in a true market economy.

A good middle class is a result of government intervention, including the right for people to act collectively for bargaining purposes.

There are no countries that exist today, or have EVER existed, that has had a strong middle class without moderate government intervention.

But the reverse of a pure market economy is also bad....and hence a good balance is what is needed, as to much government influence results more and more into pure socialism or even worse....which is also not good.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

My point is that the salary budget is flexible, but only in one direction: down.

Then your business is FAILING and you should be ashamed to take DOWN people with you.

Disgusting. :| :thumbsdown:

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: ntdz
]

if you make minimum wage YOU PAY NO INCOME TAX. Yeah, thats SMART leadership huh, Bush didnt think of it because its simply WRONG.

Do you still not pay income tax on that minimum wage if your spouse makes $10.00 per hour? (combined income counts - not all minimum wagers are single income families). Just an observation that just because you make minimum wage does not mean that you do not pay taxes on that money.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
everything causes unemployment. safetly standards, health standards, pollution standards, age standards etc

I'll comment on that one...working in a machinery/tool shop, I see the costs of safety. I'm not saying that they are not necessarily needed (althought I've seen safety requirements go up through the roof over the last 10 years and our accident rate has not dropped).


Adding safety to each machine can cost upwards of $5,000 or more. Light curtains, safety relays, limit switches, guarding, special programming. A simple 36" light curtain costs $1,300 + the labor of installation.

 

[arsbanned]

To a point I agree with the OP that a free market economy is impeded by such inconveniences as a minimum wage. But I would also say that an economy without some imposed structure is completely unsustainable. The minimum wage is absolutely necessary, as are other parts of our economic structure, such as child labor laws and the like.
If someone wants to be in business they must accept the responsibility that goes along with it.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
To a point I agree with the OP that a free market economy is impeded by such inconveniences as a minimum wage. But I would also say that an economy without some imposed structure is completely unsustainable. The minimum wage is absolutely necessary, as are other parts of our economic structure, such as child labor laws and the like.
If someone wants to be in business they must accept the responsibility that goes along with it.

If someone wants to be in business they must accept the responsibility that goes along with it

Nawwwww, you heard the guy. All the Business Owners want to do is drive the people DOWN.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma
I have heard this advocated several times by Kerry - raise the minimum wage to give the working poor a "fair" salary. Nonsense. Minimum wage (a) causes unemployment and (b) interferes with the free-market.

To address unemployment - where do these politicians and poor people think the money will come from? Do they think Big Corp, Inc. has wads of cash in the bank? I ran a small business business and can tell you firsthand the very first thing we cut when we have a "rough patch" is salaries. There is only a fixed amount available for salaries and other expenses cannot be shifted over - rent, power, vendors, etc. are all fixed costs. Therefore, if everyone is making minimum wage and it is then raised, some will have to be terminated so their salaries can be split up amongst the others.

Very simply: assume minimum wage is $5.00/hour and Kerry wants to raise it to $7.50/hour; an employee works 2,000 hours/year; annual minimum age salary is $10,000; Kerry's proposed annual minimum wage salary is $15,000. If the budget for salaries is $100,000 then 10 people are currently employed @ $5 minimum wage. If it's raised, then only 6 people keep their jobs and 4 are terminated. This destroys the small business and soon the other 6 will join the unemployed.

As for the free-market - if an employer and potential employee agree that his skill is worth only $4/hour, then that is fair. Neither side is exploited. This was the case when I just started high school and mowed lawns. Paying me minimum wage was too much, but I was happy to work for less. After all, I was making money and, more importantly, learning life's lessons. Unfortunately, by forcing an employer to pay at least $5/hour or $7.50/hour, those with little or no skills remain permanently unemployed. It also encourages hiring of illegal Mexicans - both the employer and "employee" (illegal Mexican) agree on a fair price which is less than Big Government, Inc.'s minimum standard.

your analysis assumes businesses can't raise prices.

since an increased cost is applied to all competitors,
then raising prices can't be ruled out, assuming the
demand elasticity is low.

personally, i don't care if i have to pay a quarter or whatever
more for a fast-food meal or anything else if it helps someone have a decent
standard of living.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: gutharius
A minimum wage increase would increase the taxes from income generated and help balance the budget by increased income tax revenue without increaseing the tax rate. Now that is SMART leadership there is no way in hell bush would have thought of that.

I always wondered how a liberal's mind works - raise taxes. That is HORRIBLE leadership and why I am casting my vote against him and against the socialists and communists who seek to destroy our nation.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: gutharius
A minimum wage increase would increase the taxes from income generated and help balance the budget by increased income tax revenue without increaseing the tax rate. Now that is SMART leadership there is no way in hell bush would have thought of that.

I always wondered how a liberal's mind works - raise taxes. That is HORRIBLE leadership and why I am casting my vote against him and against the socialists and communists who seek to destroy our nation.

$20 says that HalosPuma is a regular neocon troll that has been recently banned and is using a second account.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

 

[Tripleshot]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
I am old enough to have seen many raises in the minimum wage (it was $1.25/hr when I got my first job in high school). I have heard the same stories of doom and gloom as many times. It has yet to come to pass.

Exactly, I too have seen this crap spewed when a democrat seeks to raise the minimum wage. It's nothing but a smoke screen to confuse the un educated in hopes a raise would not be granted and more profitering on the backs of the workforce can take place. Freakin greedy bastards! :disgust:

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

I see no reason why it can't be raised to keep in line with the cost of living. If the same $5 does not buy you the same amount of goods as it did in 1997 as it now does in 2004, then why should the minimum wage stay stagnant? I challenge you to find one company that pays it workers the bare minimum wage, that would go belly up if they had to start paying their workers an extra 1$ - $2 an hour. Perhaps the owner would have to take 1 less vacation a year but short of that, the only impact it would have is putting more money into their pockets which will in turn, mean more money for the economy. What are the republicans so afraid of? That these low paying scum might have enough money after 6 months of saving to eat in the same restaurants as you do?

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: HalosPuma

Originally posted by: gutharius
A minimum wage increase would increase the taxes from income generated and help balance the budget by increased income tax revenue without increaseing the tax rate. Now that is SMART leadership there is no way in hell bush would have thought of that.

I always wondered how a liberal's mind works - raise taxes. That is HORRIBLE leadership and why I am casting my vote against him and against the socialists and communists who seek to destroy our nation.

$20 says that HalosPuma is a regular neocon troll that has been recently banned and is using a second account.

We already knew that IMHO, anyone who has registered in the past month and has over 200 posts fits that bill rather nicely.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

I see no reason why it can't be raised to keep in line with the cost of living. If the same $5 does not buy you the same amount of goods as it did in 1997 as it now does in 2004, then why should the minimum wage stay stagnant? I challenge you to find one company that pays it workers the bare minimum wage, that would go belly up if they had to start paying their workers an extra 1$ - $2 an hour. Perhaps the owner would have to take 1 less vacation a year but short of that, the only impact it would have is putting more money into their pockets which will in turn, mean more money for the economy. What are the republicans so afraid of? That these low paying scum might have enough money after 6 months of saving to eat in the same restaurants as you do?

Since when does minimum wage mean "living wage"? Oh that's right.... it doesn't.

The question remains - how much and why?

CsG

 

[arsbanned]

Since when does minimum wage mean "living wage"? Oh that's right.... it doesn't.

Unfortunately, it does, for some. Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into a situation which allows them to get an adequate/good education.

 

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

I see no reason why it can't be raised to keep in line with the cost of living. If the same $5 does not buy you the same amount of goods as it did in 1997 as it now does in 2004, then why should the minimum wage stay stagnant? I challenge you to find one company that pays it workers the bare minimum wage, that would go belly up if they had to start paying their workers an extra 1$ - $2 an hour. Perhaps the owner would have to take 1 less vacation a year but short of that, the only impact it would have is putting more money into their pockets which will in turn, mean more money for the economy. What are the republicans so afraid of? That these low paying scum might have enough money after 6 months of saving to eat in the same restaurants as you do?

Since when does minimum wage mean "living wage"? Oh that's right.... it doesn't.

The question remains - how much and why?

CsG

Re-read my post. It has figures and the reason. I could care less about the term "living wage". I do care that people are paid enough money to support their families. I think it is a hell of a lot better than not making enough money, having to go down to the FIA and getting food stamp benefits which we ALL pay for.

You DO realize that even if you work 40 hours a week for someone, if you don't make enough money that our government still freely gives you Food Stamps, right? It is not only for the poor and out of work, but for the working people as well. All you have to do is get a paycheck every week and if it is not enough, the government kicks in.

If you want to keep helping shouldering that burden, more power to you.

Fuck that. The employer can afford a few more bucks an hour. If not, they can set up shop in Bangalore while playing the world's smallest violin of how an extra $1-$2 put them out of business.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: arsbanned

Since when does minimum wage mean "living wage"? Oh that's right.... it doesn't.

Unfortunately, it does, for some. Not everyone is lucky enough to be born into a situation which allows them to get an adequate/good education.

No, it doesn't mean "living wage".

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
A question for the minimum wage raisers. How much should it be? and why?

Should be interesting to see the replies.

CsG

I think a better question is what do minimum wage opponents think it should be and why?

That should be interesting to see the replies. Just how little can a family of 5 get by on an hour?

I think it should stay as is. Why? you ask? Because there isn't a good reason to raise it.

Now please answer the question.

How much should it be? and why?

CsG

I see no reason why it can't be raised to keep in line with the cost of living. If the same $5 does not buy you the same amount of goods as it did in 1997 as it now does in 2004, then why should the minimum wage stay stagnant? I challenge you to find one company that pays it workers the bare minimum wage, that would go belly up if they had to start paying their workers an extra 1$ - $2 an hour. Perhaps the owner would have to take 1 less vacation a year but short of that, the only impact it would have is putting more money into their pockets which will in turn, mean more money for the economy. What are the republicans so afraid of? That these low paying scum might have enough money after 6 months of saving to eat in the same restaurants as you do?

Since when does minimum wage mean "living wage"? Oh that's right.... it doesn't.

The question remains - how much and why?

CsG

Re-read my post. It has figures and the reason. I could care less about the term "living wage". I do care that people are paid enough money to support their families. I think it is a hell of a lot better than not making enough money, having to go down to the FIA and getting food stamp benefits which we ALL pay for.

You DO realize that even if you work 40 hours a week for someone, if you don't make enough money that our government still freely gives you Food Stamps, right? It is not only for the poor and out of work, but for the working people as well. All you have to do is get a paycheck every week and if it is not enough, the government kicks in.

If you want to keep helping shouldering that burden, more power to you.

Fuck that. The employer can afford a few more bucks an hour. If not, they can set up shop in Bangalore while playing the world's smallest violin of how an extra $1-$2 put them out of business.

Quit diverting - The question remains - how much and why?

Are you saying a $2 increase is enough by your post?

CsG

 

[DealMonkey]

I call for a 3%/year raise in minimum wage to cover inflation. That would mean our $5.15/hr minimum wage set 8 years ago, would increase to: $6.52/hr.

 

[cwjerome]

Thoughts...

When someone says, "Just how little can a family of five get by on an hour," they are introducing a whole new argument concerning people's responsibilities and the proper role of government. If you think that government should take care of -and subsidize- anything people do then that's a little separate than the minimum wage.

I knew it wouldn't be long before someone brings up "neocon" heh

There is a general but persistant anger by some towards employers (and profits). It seems they have the outlook that all jobs are from giant, evil multi-nationals where the bigwigs all wear $10,000 suits and make $100 million a year (as if jobs from these employers pay a lot of minimum wage anyway). The majority of jobs in this country are from small businesses, and small business jobs are the fastest growing sector. Mom and pop oufits, young entrepeneurs, etc... there is no love for these people since they can just go to Bangalore and cry.

Of course raising the minimum wage can have negative effects, or else we'd raise it to $25 an hour, and even the far-left wouldn't do that.

Overall, I'd say we're due for a slight increase. It's been a while, and unemployement is low, and the condition of the economy... I think we could bump it up about a dollar over the next 2 years and not suffer.

 

[jpeyton]

Minimum is over $7 an hour here in Oregon. We're doing fine.