The Extraordinary Danger to our Democracy

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
In comparison it feels like pure hypocrisy when they bash Trump for wanting to move away from his stated policy positions (especially when many of the left hated those positions).

It's not like he's moving to the middle as Obama was forced to do by an obstructionist Repub Congress. Quite the contrary. I doubt that many of his cabinet picks will indicate that he is. They haven't so far.

I also doubt that he & a Repub congress will fail to cut taxes at the top, financial regulation or a variety of social programs. It also seems likely that deficits won't matter any more. They never do with Repubs in charge. They never met a tax cut induced deficit they didn't like.
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
Blackjack, I think the problem with your post is that you are trying to raise the awareness of morally deficient people of who they voted for because of who they are. The facts are, I think, is that no matter how low people sink, they like to think in their own eyes they're upstanding people. Who would wake up from that dream? Only people with some real form of conscience still in tact, as far as I can see. So while the effort is noble enough, I fear the results will fall on their face.

This thread is not for Trump voters. I'm under no delusion that they can be convinced of anything. This thread is for Clinton voters, 3rd party voters, nonvoters, and anyone in general that would be horrified at the prospect of a Trump presidency if they thought about it just a little bit harder. 2 million more people voted for Clinton, the worst thing they can do is fail to imagine the kind of authoritarian administration we've seen in other countries that Masha Gessen discussed. She's saying "look Americans, I've seen this before, I know this, you need to appreciate this".

Fox News opinion writer suggests that Hillary Clinton could be punished criminally for participating in the recounts:
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016...just-squander-her-get-out-jail-free-card.html

Fascism is here.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
15,727
1,456
126
I think a candidate's stated policy position during an election is overrated as an indicator for everything to do with their actual politics after the election. Obama's 2008 website was full of plans and ideas that never came to pass (Gitmo is still open), while his signature piece of legislation, Obamacare, wasn't even mentioned on said wesbite in any detail when he was running. I think ever since at least Reagan voters vote based on personality, team/tribe mentality, and personal affinity for the candidate. People have learned that campaign promises are bullcrap, so it's better to vote for the person you like more.

The "way things are supposed to work" guide to being a good citizen is a book that has been outdated for decades. Watergate ruined the public trust that undoes the important of politician truthiness (to steal an awesome word) that is laid out in OP.

Those upset about Trump getting elected would be better served trying to rally the troops for the midterms in two years. All this bellyaching about civic life not being what they thought, or people not voting for "the right reasons," or even complaints about the electoral college denies the reality that Obama once benefitted from everything that Trump has benefitted from. When Obama changed his mind to follow a changing America (say on gay marriage) that was applauded by the left because the shift was in a direction they like. In comparison it feels like pure hypocrisy when they bash Trump for wanting to move away from his stated policy positions (especially when many of the left hated those positions).

Time to live in the real world and get out of the ivory tower.

While I more or less agree for your nutshell summary of what motivates voters in their choices, simple logical inference would suggest that the largest number of voters, supplied with the most complete and accurate information and fact, applying their brains with the most rigorous inferences and assumptions -- would be the only basis to merely assure a chance of a wise decision.

Of course, the entire idea of a "democracy" could only guarantee temporary legitimation of authority -- nothing much more than that. But people subscribe to the myth that a majority decision is the best decision for all reasons other than that one. Anybody who entered their adult life thinking that talent or excellent performance should be the only criterion for success and ignoring the value of simply being a "good person" should wake up and see why that's not such a bad balance of attributes.

Second, I think you fail to distinguish a politician's changing opinion justified by an explication of his own logic (such as Obama's acceptance of gay marriage), versus the telltale signs that there is no logic, that there is no policy, no belief, no willingness to connect and explain what was said in the past with what is said now -- and neither honesty nor integrity of any kind.

The OP got my hackles up by an assertion that Medicare and Social Security would simply be "eliminated." A couple years ago, I was sitting in a coffee-shop recounting experiences in my earlier life as a career civil servant by day and college professor by night. Another man sitting with an evangelical minister became blustery and louder -- apparently directing his anger at me. He remarked that "They'll all be dead, anyway," referring to Social Security.

I wish I'd just stood up, walked over to him and slapped his face -- embracing arrest for assault.

There is a lot to worry about here. You cannot trust Trump in anything he says, except as he provides a megaphone for the low character and intellect of his most ardent supporters.

"Wo ist Klaus von Stauffenberg wenn Sie ihn brauchen?"

In other words, if the OP's worst-case scenario occurs, it will be like the Fuhrer's personal execution of Ernst Rohm -- figuratively. The seniors who support this toxic piece of filth will be betrayed.

And Pence isn't worth a Shilling.
 
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Commodus

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2004
9,211
6,809
136
Donald Trump proposes loss of citizenship or jail time for flag burning.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...p-proposes-harsh-punishments-for-flag-burning

Now if this doesn't raise alarm bells, nothing will.

Not only is flag burning protected under the First Amendment, but the late Antonin Scalia (you know, the Republicans' dream Supreme Court Justice) upheld that decision twice. Yes, the odds of Trump getting his way here aren't high, but there are two issues here. It not only emphasizes how fundamentally clueless Trump is about American politics, it shows just how much contempt he has for free speech -- you suspect he would pass a law making it illegal to insult the President if he could.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
11,592
8,045
136
I'm pretty sure this has been said regarding Trump at least sixteen times before (on different occasions).

Yep. As shocking as that single statement is, I can't see it make any difference to the minority that supports him. He said it himself, he can shoot someone on 5th ave. and not lose any votes. This is what we've become. This is what we deserve.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,435
6,091
126
Yep. As shocking as that single statement is, I can't see it make any difference to the minority that supports him. He said it himself, he can shoot someone on 5th ave. and not lose any votes. This is what we've become. This is what we deserve.
It isn't what we deserve. It's what we feel we deserve and that is why we have it, why we did it to ourselves. And it will be exactly what we have and as you say deserve because we will not face the fact that it is what we feel and don't want to know we feel, our self hate, that determines our reality. We create what we fear and what we fear is to feel and know our self hate. We chose instead to hate the other and we are all somebody's other. We are awash in a sea of hatred.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,717
9,603
136
The answer is to stay vigilant and keep raising the alarm.

To his supporters that's nothing more than crying wolf. I think Americans who care about the whole of their society have two choices: Get politically active, or find something else to occupy your time and try not to think about it.

I get to moan by the sidelines because I don't live there :p
 

Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,685
126
To his supporters that's nothing more than crying wolf. I think Americans who care about the whole of their society have two choices: Get politically active, or find something else to occupy your time and try not to think about it.

I get to moan by the sidelines because I don't live there :p

I agree, we shouldn't raise the alarm to his supporters. We should raise it to the people who might be sufficiently concerned that they do something positive.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
To his supporters that's nothing more than crying wolf. I think Americans who care about the whole of their society have two choices: Get politically active, or find something else to occupy your time and try not to think about it.

I get to moan by the sidelines because I don't live there :p

His supporters are currently in a state of dream like delirium. They're in for a very rude awakening. Trump can't deliver on his promises. That never was his intention.