The Europeans are slowly, but finally, getting it.

[CanOWorms]

Lots of reforms need to happen. They also need to support equality for everyone, not only the majority. Then more educated immigrants would choose Europe as a valid choice for education and work.

 

[sandorski]

I'm all for removing Trade Barriers, but I'd add the US in with Europe, specifically concerning Agriculture.

 

[glenn1]

In a couple of years the cheap Chineese Cars will be coming over by Boat and sell for $5,000 or less in the U.S., and will finally close the doors on the Union GM, Ford and Dodge in the U.S. forever.

You act as if this is a bad thing.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: Dari

biostud666, are you saying that quality of life and income aren't rising in Eastern Europe and Asia?

No, I'll tell you that. I've been to Eastern Europe numerous times. The sad reality is that, except for a couple of places like Hungary, the Czech Republic and some former Yugoslav republics, the average monthly salary in Eastern Europe has remained under $200, since 1992.

 

[Riprorin]

They are not replacing their populations. Europe will face a slow decline.

 

[dbk]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Western Europeans are lazy. The French work little, take insane vacations, and wonder why national unemployment is at a staggering 12%.

They can afford to b/c they get much better unemployment benefits than us.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: smashp
The Hard lesson Europe is About to Learn is Profit is more important and powerful than Social Well Being, A lesson we know as a truth here in the USA.

no, the lesson they're learning is that a globalized world brings intense competition. If you want to survive, you have to work much, much harder and faster. If you don't, you die.

Now, comfort comes at a much higher price and is much more valuable.

"you have to work much, much harder and faster" exactly. More productivity for the Same Pay = Lower costs and MORE PROFIT. Thank you for proving my point.

Of course you do. Let me ask you this then, have you seen the other side of globalization? The side in which asians, eastern europeans and others are benefitting tremendously? Have you seen the side in which men, who have been trampled on for generations, are suddenly realizing their advantage and opportunity? Have you?

Which timeframe would you like to return to, huh? How about the 19th century when Africans were slaves, Africa and Asia was colonized, all for the benefits of Europeans.

Or how about the time when Eastern Europe was behind the iron-curtain and millions there were captive to a God-less regime who sang the idealistic praises that you so yearn for? What was the reality for them? You know why socialism prospered for so long in Western Europe, because communism was right next door. Hence, you had no competition and your schema was relatively better. Add to the fact the Western Europe was growing fast only because from where they started from (the ashes of WWII) and you'll see that your benefits were really only temporary.

Yes, your lifestyle may be lowered, but those of millions of others are getting better. In the end, competition leads to much better efficiency. Competition is king.

What competition is is hate. We have built a world where hate is king because we hate ourselves. From our inability to see that we hate everything. Our would is upside down and sick with the sickest those we call the winners. People like you, Dari, are actually insane, but the secret protects itself.

 

[Mockery]

Rant approaching???..(General)

Does anyone else see the irony of pro-Socialist driven people being on a primary tech website?

Anyone ever studied the effects of Socialism on technological advancements?
It?s amazing how much cool stuff gets invented when you remove incentives ($$$) from the engineers, scientists, and computer programmers of this society. [/sarc]

I just find it amusing when people act like America would be better off if we implemented some type of Marxist based economics policy here in America. They completely disregard the verity that just about everything this society has achieved is due to our Capitalistic society and it weren?t for the religious fundamentalists and the handout demanders in this country, I would probably be driving a ?flying car? by now.

Instead, I have to listen to the complaints of individuals who are too unmotivated to follow the prerequisites of obtaining an adequate education, or decent work ethic, purely because they think they have an unalienable right to ?free lunch? just through being in America. I just wish these people would sit back and realize that everything comes at a cost, a cost that usually must be burdened by those around them.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Mockery
Rant approaching???..(General)

Does anyone else see the irony of pro-Socialist driven people being on a primary tech website?

Anyone ever studied the effects of Socialism on technological advancements?
It?s amazing how much cool stuff gets invented when you remove incentives ($$$) from the engineers, scientists, and computer programmers of this society. [/sarc]

I just find it amusing when people act like America would be better off if we implemented some type of Marxist based economics policy here in America. They completely disregard the verity that just about everything this society has achieved is due to our Capitalistic society and it weren?t for the religious fundamentalists and the handout demanders, I would already be driving me ?flying car? by now.

Instead, I have to listen to the complaints of people who are too unmotivated to follow the prerequisites of obtaining an adequate education, achieving a decent work ethic, purely because they think they have an unalienable right to ?free lunch? just through being in America. I just wish these people would sit back and realize that everything comes at a cost, a cost that usually must be burdened by those around them.

Well, yes, that was a rant.

I think you need to differentiate between "Socialist", "Communist", and Other first. There *might* be 1 or 2 "Socialists" on this board, maybe. In short, there is no Irony in your comment, as your assumption of Socialism and who Socialists are is completely off base to begin with, thus nullify your whole "Rant".

 

[Grakatt]

Hehe, I believe on Iceland they're already 'getting' it. I was there half a year ago, and the first thing to strike me were the high prices. Highest in the world, according to some, higher than Japan. I was told many Icelanders take two jobs in order to afford a high living standard.

Jesus M Christ, that's a paradox 😛

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Grakatt
Hehe, I believe on Iceland they're already 'getting' it. I was there half a year ago, and the first thing to strike me were the high prices. Highest in the world, according to some, higher than Japan. I was told many Icelanders take two jobs in order to afford a high living standard.

Jesus M Christ, that's a paradox 😛

Iceland is in the middle of nowhere, literally. That in itself will make prices high, add in a low population and prices get pushed higher. Other things add to costs, such as increased need for heating, it's cold up there.

 

[Grakatt]

Haha, and it has about 10 trees 🙂
Heating isn't an issue though, as it isn't very cold up there (Golf, gulf, whatever ,stream, goes right by, and they are heated by the warmth underground anwyay. Geothermic heat, I think?

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Well, yes, that was a rant.

I think you need to differentiate between "Socialist", "Communist", and Other first. There *might* be 1 or 2 "Socialists" on this board, maybe. In short, there is no Irony in your comment, as your assumption of Socialism and who Socialists are is completely off base to begin with, thus nullify your whole "Rant".

Well they might not be true ?socialists? but they still believe that it is our federal governments duty to provide for its citizens every hankering and that rich people should be mandated to pay for others social services and the societies general wellbeing. I guess the ?true? definition of this has been lost somewhere in this overall mindset. I also find it unusual that people have such a hard time finding a correlation between the concept of universal ?free lunch? and socialism. Last I checked this wasn?t exactly an active part of any Capitalistic platform that I am aware of.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: sandorski

Well, yes, that was a rant.

I think you need to differentiate between "Socialist", "Communist", and Other first. There *might* be 1 or 2 "Socialists" on this board, maybe. In short, there is no Irony in your comment, as your assumption of Socialism and who Socialists are is completely off base to begin with, thus nullify your whole "Rant".

Well they might not be true ?socialists? but they still believe that it is our federal governments duty to provide for its citizens every hankering and that rich people should be mandated to pay for others social services and the societies general wellbeing. I guess the ?true? definition of this has been lost somewhere in this overall mindset. I also find it unusual that people have such a hard time finding a correlation between the concept of universal ?free lunch? and socialism. Last I checked this wasn?t exactly an active part of any Capitalistic platform that I am aware of.

No one's asking for a free lunch or for the Rich to pay for their way. If they were the Rich would be going broke, which is not happening.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Grakatt
Haha, and it has about 10 trees 🙂
Heating isn't an issue though, as it isn't very cold up there (Golf, gulf, whatever ,stream, goes right by, and they are heated by the warmth underground anwyay. Geothermic heat, I think?

It's an issue. They may have the Gulf Stream, but it's far from Tropical. Yes they do have Geothermal heating, in fact they'll soon be using their Geothermal resource to produce Hydrogen for Fuel Cells, but even that costs money in infrastructure.

Don't underestimate the extra costs for their isolation. Some of the main reasons that the US has low prices are it's good location and high population(which makes it an even better location). The US has a population that can support numerous competitors in each Industry, something that Iceland lacks. Also, the US can produce most of it's food, clothing, Wood/Metals, and many other necessary products that Iceland can't produce or can't produce cheaply. All these things add to Product costs.

 

[Grakatt]

I was thinking isolation in their buildings, but then it slowly dawned on me.

Heating, well, it costs less there than for example in Scandinavia, but otherwise..most likely because they are very isolated, and fish-dependant, yes. Some kind of fish/crustacean on every coin.

Anyway, the european countries by the mediterranean, they are supposed to take siestas. That, and the oils and stuff they eat, is part of the reason they live longer than us cold and stressed scandinavians.

 

[Czar]

uuu talking about my country 😛
time for some explanations

1. Only few weeks ago it was on the news that Iceland is not one of the most expensive countries in the world but is now the most expensive country in the world. People who have low paying jobs often take two of them to be able to make a propper living. Those are exceptions, most make enough or more than enough to live well. The reason for things being so expensive are a few, one is that importing is very costly and second is even though some people take two jobs the salery cost for employes is very high. There is also the lack of competition like sandorski pointed out. For example gas, there are 3 major and old gas giants here, for decades they have been suspecting of price fixing, one or two rise the price to the exact same number and a day later the others follows. Recently a new company went on the market and its alot cheaper than the other three, managed to get a lower import cost and their gas stations have no services. And what do the other giants do, one of them just makes a daughter company that be managed very much like the new company is doing. That way the other three dont have to change anything in their business. There is an investigation into this matter.

2. Heating cost is among the lowest in the world and so is electricity. We get hot water from hot springs in huge amounts and we have hot water pools all over the place and they are very cheap, only 200kr or about $2.7. Cheaper for kids and the elderly. We get nearly all our electricity from dams, no pollution 🙂 Also we have one hydrogen gas station, the first one in the world, produces hydrogen on the spot. There are a few hydrogen cars here already, all company cars I think.

3. There is alot of taxes and tolls which most of goes into running the healthcare services which are almost free to use.

4. All buildings are made here to withstand an earthquake of the scale of if I remember correctly 6.0 on the righter scale. The cost of houses and apartments is insanely high at the moment but not because of that earthquake reason.

5. Fish is currently the number one export for us and aluminium second, soon to be number on or already is. Aluminium refining takes alot of electricity and because its very cheap here its cost effective to send it to us.

6. Scandinavian countries have some of the longest life expectancies in the world. High quality of life.

 

[sandorski]

I stand corrected on Heating costs. 😉

 

[Mockery]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: sandorski

Well, yes, that was a rant.

I think you need to differentiate between "Socialist", "Communist", and Other first. There *might* be 1 or 2 "Socialists" on this board, maybe. In short, there is no Irony in your comment, as your assumption of Socialism and who Socialists are is completely off base to begin with, thus nullify your whole "Rant".

Well they might not be true ?socialists? but they still believe that it is our federal governments duty to provide for its citizens every hankering and that rich people should be mandated to pay for others social services and the societies general wellbeing. I guess the ?true? definition of this has been lost somewhere in this overall mindset. I also find it unusual that people have such a hard time finding a correlation between the concept of universal ?free lunch? and socialism. Last I checked this wasn?t exactly an active part of any Capitalistic platform that I am aware of.

No one's asking for a free lunch or for the Rich to pay for their way. If they were the Rich would be going broke, which is not happening.

There's a difference between what people want and what people actually get. 😉

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: biostud666

Originally posted by: Dari
biostud666, are you saying that quality of life and income aren't rising in Eastern Europe and Asia?

No, it's beginning to get better which is really good, but it's still a great deal lower than in US and Europe. We need it to rise even more in Eastern Europe and Asia, not lowering our standards.

Who's lowering what standards? Please be specific.
EDIT: As far as qol and income, be patient. It's only been 14 years. Things take time. The point is that they are better than they were.

Examples of that would be Spain and Ireland before and after they joined the EU.

I thought you advocated for longer days of work and lower payment in Western Europe.

What I want is for Europe, and everyone else on this globe, to throw down the barriers to competition and let's see who's the best at what. With no barriers, efficiency will be realized. That, in turn, will be lower prices for consumers and more innovation.

Europe needs to get rid of her self-imposed sclerotic labor rigidities.

I also wan't a global market but I don't want a competition that is skewed. If India can produce some products cheaper because they use massive amount of child labor, have no safety regulation concerning dangerous chemicals, then I'm not fine with that. There has to be some international rules that prevent these things.

 

[biostud]

Originally posted by: Mockery
Rant approaching???..(General)

Does anyone else see the irony of pro-Socialist driven people being on a primary tech website?

Anyone ever studied the effects of Socialism on technological advancements?
It?s amazing how much cool stuff gets invented when you remove incentives ($$$) from the engineers, scientists, and computer programmers of this society. [/sarc]

I just find it amusing when people act like America would be better off if we implemented some type of Marxist based economics policy here in America. They completely disregard the verity that just about everything this society has achieved is due to our Capitalistic society and it weren?t for the religious fundamentalists and the handout demanders in this country, I would probably be driving a ?flying car? by now.

Instead, I have to listen to the complaints of individuals who are too unmotivated to follow the prerequisites of obtaining an adequate education, or decent work ethic, purely because they think they have an unalienable right to ?free lunch? just through being in America. I just wish these people would sit back and realize that everything comes at a cost, a cost that usually must be burdened by those around them.

I think you confuse some expressions but......no matter. Personally I'm a member of a social-liberal party, and here liberal stands for free trade, free competiotion and all the other capitalistic stuff. It's also pro EU, pro UN, pro NATO, pro human rights etc. The social part is because we believe that all people in a society has a right to some minimum services, these include free healthcare, free education and some kind of social security. When all these things are paid for through taxes, I believe we create a society where most people get a chance of becoming what they want and thereby creating the best basis for a healthy society. Sure we have fewer ultra rich, but we dont have 12.1% of our population living in poverty, which equals to 34.6 mio americans living in poverty Source.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: smashp

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: smashp
The Hard lesson Europe is About to Learn is Profit is more important and powerful than Social Well Being, A lesson we know as a truth here in the USA.

no, the lesson they're learning is that a globalized world brings intense competition. If you want to survive, you have to work much, much harder and faster. If you don't, you die.

Now, comfort comes at a much higher price and is much more valuable.

"you have to work much, much harder and faster" exactly. More productivity for the Same Pay = Lower costs and MORE PROFIT. Thank you for proving my point.

Of course you do. Let me ask you this then, have you seen the other side of globalization? The side in which asians, eastern europeans and others are benefitting tremendously? Have you seen the side in which men, who have been trampled on for generations, are suddenly realizing their advantage and opportunity? Have you?

Which timeframe would you like to return to, huh? How about the 19th century when Africans were slaves, Africa and Asia was colonized, all for the benefits of Europeans.

Or how about the time when Eastern Europe was behind the iron-curtain and millions there were captive to a God-less regime who sang the idealistic praises that you so yearn for? What was the reality for them? You know why socialism prospered for so long in Western Europe, because communism was right next door. Hence, you had no competition and your schema was relatively better. Add to the fact the Western Europe was growing fast only because from where they started from (the ashes of WWII) and you'll see that your benefits were really only temporary.

Yes, your lifestyle may be lowered, but those of millions of others are getting better. In the end, competition leads to much better efficiency. Competition is king.

What competition is is hate. We have built a world where hate is king because we hate ourselves. From our inability to see that we hate everything. Our would is upside down and sick with the sickest those we call the winners. People like you, Dari, are actually insane, but the secret protects itself.

You know, I probably shouldn't be replying to this but... The next time there's a party going down, I'll look your way for entertainment. Make sure to bring whatever you're smoking for everyone.