The Environment: Quit taking the party line!

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: totalcommand

Originally posted by: zendari
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Those evil energy corporations, trying to make a few dollars.

Harvey, are the liberals willing to pay more for cleaner energy and more expensive consumer products that comes with environmental regulation? You can talk the talk, now walk the walk.

Dave constantly whines about the price of gas.

some environmental inprovements will actually SAVE consumers money. Yep. It's hard to believe huh?

Example: Raising the Fuel Efficiency of cars. Jeez, with the prices of gas today, we could really have used better fuel efficiency. The technology exists, and the prices of cars would not be raised significantly at all.

Hybrids are more expensive vehicles, the money you save on gas doesn't outweigh the price of the car.

I'm not talking about hybrids.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: zendari
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Those evil energy corporations, trying to make a few dollars.

Harvey, are the liberals willing to pay more for cleaner energy and more expensive consumer products that comes with environmental regulation? You can talk the talk, now walk the walk.

The problem is that this is almost always how the debate is structured. Either you get cheap energy and consumer products, or a cleaner environment. The environment is a difficult thing to worry about for most people, but everyone wants cheap stuff.

But that's not how the issue should work. There are plenty of ways to have your cake and eat it too, except people like you are convinced that the only way to help the environment is by bankrupting energy companies and making everything cost a fortune. In other words, there is some kind of terrible tradeoff, you give something up by helping the environment. And most of the enviro-nuts are convinced the only way to help the environment is by living in caves and outlawing SUVs. So no one tries to actually find any solutions that work from all sides, because everyone is convinced it's an all or nothing deal.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: charrison
[Yes it [Yucca Mountain] could, but it is unlikely with all the precautions taken.

Take some time and educate yourself.

You made my point. As I said, when the possible consequenses of Oops! can reasonably be seen as catastrophic, unlikely just isn't good enough.

Well you are waiting for a perfect power source, which will never be available.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: zendari
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Those evil energy corporations, trying to make a few dollars.

Harvey, are the liberals willing to pay more for cleaner energy and more expensive consumer products that comes with environmental regulation? You can talk the talk, now walk the walk.

The problem is that this is almost always how the debate is structured. Either you get cheap energy and consumer products, or a cleaner environment. The environment is a difficult thing to worry about for most people, but everyone wants cheap stuff.

But that's not how the issue should work. There are plenty of ways to have your cake and eat it too, except people like you are convinced that the only way to help the environment is by bankrupting energy companies and making everything cost a fortune. In other words, there is some kind of terrible tradeoff, you give something up by helping the environment. And most of the enviro-nuts are convinced the only way to help the environment is by living in caves and outlawing SUVs. So no one tries to actually find any solutions that work from all sides, because everyone is convinced it's an all or nothing deal.

Do you really think the answer is that simple? Someone would have surely come up with a solution by now if it was.

Certainly both sides exaggerate the issue, but many people on both sides agree that such a general tradeoff does remain.

Here's a good article about energy and the environment.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: zendari
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Those evil energy corporations, trying to make a few dollars.

Do you only open your mouth to change feet? :roll:

Conviction #1

Enron 'Mastermind' Pleads Guilty

(AP) A former top energy trader, considered the mastermind of Enron Corp.'s scheme to drive up California's energy prices, pleaded guilty Thursday to a federal conspiracy charge.

Timothy Belden, the former head of trading in Enron's Portland, Ore., office, admitted to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud and promised to cooperate with state and federal prosecutors as well as any non-criminal effort to investigate the energy industry.

"I did it because I was trying to maximize profit for Enron," Belden told U.S. District Judge Martin Jenkins.

His sentencing was set for April 17, 2003.

U.S. Attorney Kevin Ryan said the guilty plea shows the rolling blackouts and huge price increases that rocked California last year were the result of illegal conduct.

"These charges answer the question that has long troubled California consumers: whether the energy crisis was spurred in part by criminal activity. The answer is a resounding yes," Ryan said.

Belden will help federal prosecutors in their case against higher ranking officials at Houston-based Enron, the energy giant whose collapse last year has roiled the energy industry, said Matthew Jacobs, the federal prosecutor handling the case.

Belden's attorney, Cristina Arguedas, said he was following Enron's instructions as he handled his trades and will "make amends for that by cooperating with the government."

Belden, 35, who now lives in Houston, was released on $500,000 bail. He faces a maximum five-year prison sentence.

"Tim Belden is not a high-level executive who was lining his pockets out of greed," Arguedas said. "He did his job. Tim was always honest with others at Enron about his actions, and was never disciplined by Enron.

"He now realizes that what he was taught to do was wrong," she continued. "He's going to make amends as well as he can by cooperating fully with the government and telling the complete truth about Enron's actions in the California energy trading market."

Investigators for a state Senate committee looking into the energy market have long considered Belden a key player in Enron's activities in California.

Belden was "the mastermind behind the strategies described" in memos that spelled out how Enron manipulated the California market, said Chris Schreiber, an attorney working with California's Senate Select Committee to Investigate Price Manipulation of the Wholesale Energy Market.

"He's been on our radar for a long time," Schreiber added.

Belden, the first person to be charged in the manipulation of Western energy markets, is the third Enron figure to be prosecuted.

Andrew Fastow, Enron's former chief financial officer, is accused of devising the company's complex web of off-the-books partnerships used to hide some $1 billion in debt from shareholders and federal regulators and is charged with money laundering, fraud and conspiracy.

A once-trusted Fastow aide, Michael Kopper, pleaded guilty in August to money laundering and conspiracy to commit wire fraud.

Belden engaged in a lengthy dance with federal officials over his plea and eventual cooperation. In July, newspaper reports said Belden might be trying to cut a deal with prosecutors.

For months, federal investigators have worked with a California Senate panel investigating the state's energy crisis about evidence uncovered in its long-running investigation of market manipulation. A federal grand jury in San Francisco has been weighing criminal charges related to the energy crisis.

Internal company memos, first released in May, describe how Enron took power out of California at a time of rolling blackouts and shortages and sold it out of state to elude price caps, according to documents obtained by investigators.

Enron bought California power at cheap, capped prices, routed it outside the state, and then sold it back into California at vastly inflated prices, authorities said. The so-called "ricochet" deals were designed to circumvent the California-only price caps on wholesale energy.

"The conspiracy charged in this information allowed Enron to exploit and intensify the California energy crisis and prey on energy consumers at their most vulnerable moment," said Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson, head of the Justice Department's Corporate Fraud Task Force.

Thompson said revenues from Belden's trading unit rose from $50 million in 1999 to $500 million in 2000 to $800 million in 2001.

The "ricochet" strategy ended when the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission implemented regional price caps last year.

Sen. Joe Dunn, D-Santa Ana, who chairs the select committee on price manipulation, called Belden's plea "the first of many dominoes that will fall, not only at Enron, but within other energy companies within the wholesale energy market. Tim Belden not only knows how Enron played, but how others played as well."

Belden worked for UBS Warburg, which bought Enron's power trading operations early this year, but left the company in September, company spokesman David Walker said.

Conviction #2:

Second Enron Trader Convicted in Calif

SAN FRANCISCO -- A former Enron Corp. trader confessed Tuesday to helping manipulate California's electricity market in 2000, contributing to higher power prices that still haunt consumers and the state's cash-strapped government, The Associated Press reported.

Jeffrey S. Richter, 33, pleaded guilty to two felony crimes -- conspiracy to commit wire fraud and lying to the FBI in September 2002 when authorities asked him if he had defrauded California. Richter faces a maximum penalty of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine on each of two felony counts.

Richter becomes the second Enron trader to plead guilty to helping inflate California's electricity prices. His former boss, Timothy Belden, pleaded guilty in October to participating in the conspiracy.

After Richter's plea, Assistant U.S. Attorney Matthew Jacobs said Richter "was in charge of trading schemes that defrauded California consumers."

Conviction #3:

U.S. Department of Justice

United States Attorney
Northern District of California

August 5, 2004

The United States Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California announced that John M. Forney, one of Enron's former top energy executives and the inventor of the Death Star trading scheme, pled guilty this morning to having conspired to commit wire fraud for the purpose of manipulating California's energy markets during the height of California's energy crisis. As part of his guilty plea, Mr. Forney and two other convicted Enron executives will be required to assist the citizens of California in obtaining restitution for the losses they suffered during the energy crisis.

This marks the third conviction the U.S. Attorney's Office has obtained in its investigation into the illegal manipulation by Enron of California's energy markets from 1999 to 2001. In addition to these three convictions as part of the criminal investigation into the illegal manipulation of California's energy markets during 1999 to 2001, the U.S. Attorney's Office is prosecuting Reliant Corporation and four officers and employees of that corporation on charges that the company deliberately shut down power plants in order to affect the price of electricity in California.

As part of his guilty plea, Mr. Forney agreed to cooperate in the government's ongoing investigation into Enron and other companies' actions during the energy crisis. Mr. Forney and the other convicted defendants will be required, as part of their guilty pleas, to cooperate with the government's investigation in a number of respects. First, they will assist the government in determining whether other individuals at Enron should be charged in connection with the illegal manipulation of the energy markets in California and the Western states. Second, they will assist the government in determining whether other companies carried out schemes similar to Enron's for the purpose of manipulating the energy markets. Third, the defendants will, at the direction of the Department of Justice, assist in other federal and state investigations of Enron's actions during the energy crisis and assist the California parties who are trying to recover money for the victims of the crime: the citizens of California and other Western states.

U.S. Attorney Kevin V. Ryan, a member of President Bush's Corporate Fraud Task Force, said, "With the guilty plea of John Forney, we have now obtained convictions of the top three Enron executives most directly responsible for manipulating the energy markets in California at a time unique in our history, when the lights were going off and the grid was in danger of shutting down. These executives will now be required to help obtain restitution for the same victims they defrauded, namely the citizens of California and the other Western states."

Mr. Forney, age 42, of Upper Arlington, Ohio, was first arrested on June 3, 2003 on charges that he conspired to commit wire fraud in connection with the energy crisis. He was subsequently indicted by the grand jury on charges of conspiracy and wire fraud. Under terms of his guilty plea, Mr. Forney admitted that he conspired to commit wire fraud in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371.

From approximately 1997 to 2000, Mr. Forney was employed by Enron in its West Power Trading Division in Portland, Oregon. West Power marketed and supplied electricity to California wholesale customers through a number of energy and energy service markets run by the California Power Exchange and the California Independent System Operator (the California ISO). Mr. Forney was Manager of the West Power Real Time Trading Desk and reported to Tim Belden, who was Vice President and later Managing Director of Enron's West Power division.

In the plea agreement, Mr. Forney admitted that as part of the conspiracy, he and others at Enron fictitiously relieved congestion on California transmission lines and otherwise improperly collected congestion management fees; misrepresented the origin of energy; misrepresented that Enron intended to supply types of energy it did not have; and did so for the purpose of maximizing the profit Enron would receive from its energy trading operations. Mr. Forney agreed in the plea that the acts of Enron energy traders affected the price of electricity. In particular, the conspiracy was carried out through a series of schemes known within Enron as Death Star, Get Shorty, Ricochet and others. Mr. Forney admitted that he was the inventor of the Death Star scheme, which was allegedly also known within Enron as the "Forney loop."

Mr. Forney entered his guilty plea in San Francisco federal court this morning before the Hon. Martin J. Jenkins, United States District Judge. No date has been set for his sentencing. In addition to Mr. Forney, Timothy Belden and Jeffrey Richter also pled guilty to charges of conspiracy, and Mr. Richter pled guilty to charges that he made false statements to federal agents during the investigation. All of these cases were before Judge Jenkins.

In announcing the guilty plea, Mark Mershon, the Special Agent in Charge of the San Francisco Division of the FBI, said, "Today's guilty plea is one of many important steps into uncovering the criminal actions perpetrated by Enron against the people of California. The

FBI is committed to the thorough investigation of the criminal activity that occurred during the California energy crisis. Mr. Forney's decision further illustrates that we have not and will not allow the passing of time to limit our determination in the pursuit of justice in this matter."

"The CFTC's Division of Enforcement congratulates the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of California for today's fine result. The prosecutors' hard work in this and related cases has successfully placed accountability squarely on the individuals who created a roadmap for fraud in the California electricity markets. The Division

appreciated the opportunity to provide assistance to the U.S. Attorney's Office in this matter, and will continue to work with law enforcement organizations to bring energy industry predators to justice." Vincent McGonagle, Sr. Deputy Director, Enforcement Division, Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

The investigation into criminal activity during the energy crisis is being led by the U.S. Attorney's Office in San Francisco and Special Agents of the San Francisco division of the FBI, working cooperatively with the U.S. Justice Department Criminal Division's Enron Task Force. This case was prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorneys Matthew J. Jacobs and Laurel Beeler, as well as Special Assistant U.S. Attorney Kim Bruno. U.S. Attorney Ryan extended his particular thanks to the CFTC which detailed Mr. Bruno to the U.S. Attorney's Office to work on this case.

A copy of this press release may be found on the U.S. Attorney's Office's website at www.usdoj.gov/usao/can. Related court documents and information may be found on the District Court website at www.cand.uscourts.gov or on ht[/i]tp://pacer.cand.uscourts/gov.

Need more? :roll:

 

[zendari]

There are 5 million corporations in this country. Nice of you to rant on about one of them.

 

[freakflag]

Let A Thousand Reactors Bloom

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: freakflag
Let A Thousand Reactors Bloom

I have that link perminently on my blog and i made a whole thread about it...I'll go find.

Edit: Here

 

[cwjerome]

Thos crazed environmentalists may be onto something with that "global warming" stuff LINK

At least 18 dead the past week, and that's not including illegal aliens and children left in cars...

It was 119 degrees in the shade twice last weak in Buckeye (weak attempt at pity points)

But why is it when it's dry it's global warming, when it's wet it's global warming, when it's hot it's global warming, when it's cold it's global warming, etc etc etc?

In any case, I'm off to the high country for a couple nights... gotta beat the heat somehow

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Thos crazed environmentalists may be onto something with that "global warming" stuff LINK

At least 18 dead the past week, and that's not including illegal aliens and children left in cars...

It was 119 degrees in the shade twice last weak in Buckeye (weak attempt at pity points)

But why is it when it's dry it's global warming, when it's wet it's global warming, when it's hot it's global warming, when it's cold it's global warming, etc etc etc?

In any case, I'm off to the high country for a couple nights... gotta beat the heat somehow

Read up on it and you'll understand.

 

[cwjerome]

Well gee wiz, I've read quite a bit and I still don't understand. There's so much contradictory info and analysis...

This site might clear some things up-- http://www.globalwarming.org/

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Well gee wiz, I've read quite a bit and I still don't understand. There's so much contradictory info and analysis...

This site might clear some things up-- http://www.globalwarming.org/

It's also called "Global Climate Change" for a reason. That reason is to make it more apparent as to how it translates into our day-to-day lives.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Well gee wiz, I've read quite a bit and I still don't understand. There's so much contradictory info and analysis...

This site might clear some things up-- http://www.globalwarming.org/

It's also called "Global Climate Change" for a reason. That reason is to make it more apparent as to how it translates into our day-to-day lives.

Actually there was a name change because global warming was not sticking...

 

[PatboyX]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: totalcommand

Originally posted by: zendari
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. Those evil energy corporations, trying to make a few dollars.

Harvey, are the liberals willing to pay more for cleaner energy and more expensive consumer products that comes with environmental regulation? You can talk the talk, now walk the walk.

Dave constantly whines about the price of gas.

some environmental inprovements will actually SAVE consumers money. Yep. It's hard to believe huh?

Example: Raising the Fuel Efficiency of cars. Jeez, with the prices of gas today, we could really have used better fuel efficiency. The technology exists, and the prices of cars would not be raised significantly at all.

Hybrids are more expensive vehicles, the money you save on gas doesn't outweigh the price of the car.

there are some problems with that.
the most obvious being that hybrid car technology is not the only was to raise fuel efficiency. it should also be pointed out that the hybrid technology is pretty new, so it may be slightly more expensive. but the truth is, honda produces a hybrid vehicle thats pretty affordable. (not for me...but pretty affordable. cheaper than, say, an H2)
another other issue is that you are mistaking fuel efficiency being a "solution" to the problem of high gas prices. when, in fact, better fuel efficiency is a "solution" to the problem of lack of resources.
in five to ten years, its perfectly plausible that gas prices could double and the price of these vehicles could drop dramatically and while predicting the future may be a idle speculation we are not seeing a lot of evidence to suggest that oil is going to become more prevelant on the planet or that technology will get more expensive over time.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: cwjeromeWell gee wiz, I've read quite a bit and I still don't understand. There's so much contradictory info and analysis...

This site might clear some things up-- http://www.globalwarming.org/

It's also called "Global Climate Change" for a reason. That reason is to make it more apparent as to how it translates into our day-to-day lives.

Actually there was a name change because global warming was not sticking...

No, Climate Change was used to paint a more accurate picture of what is really going on. Global warming indicates just warmer weather, but it's so much more than that. People in NY when they hear "global warming" could think...yeah I wouldn't mind warmer climate...not realizing that they could be buried in water or affected by several other side effects of out of control CO2 emissions. Here are a few...

Health Impacts: Weather related mortality, Infectious Diseases, Air Quality Respiratory Illness.
Agriculture Impacts: Crop yields, Irrigation demands.
Forest Impacts: Change in forest composition, Shift geological range of forests, Forest health and productivity.
Water Resources: Change in water supply, Water Quality, Increased Competition for water.
Impacts on Coastal Areas: Erosion of beaches, Inundate coastal lands, Costs to defend coastal communities.
Species and Natural Areas: Shift in ecological zones, Loss of habitat and species.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: zendari
There are 5 million corporations in this country. Nice of you to rant on about one of them.

There are many more than five million of Californians, and millions more in other states who got ripped off by Enron, and they weren't the only energy company in on the conspiracy. Several others were in on this scheme, and this is not the only example of corporate greed at the expense of the public.

You reply to my previous post with your pissy little crybaby statement and make snide remarks about "liberals," and now that I showed you the facts about real criminal behavior by real energy companies, you try to duck the point with irrelevant garbage about how many other corporations there are. :roll:

It has nothing to do with political definitions of "liberal" or "conservative." When you're talking about nukes, the consequenses of ANY failure can result in a catastrophy of historic proportions, and the level of concern and care has to be equally high. That is TRULY conservative from an engineering standpoint.

Hybrids are more expensive vehicles, the money you save on gas doesn't outweigh the price of the car.

Thanks for another fine example of incredibly shallow thinking.

Hybrid cars are getting cheaper and more efficient. They're following the classic economics of the bringing a successful improved technology to market. Early models are more expensive, and the cost goes down as the technology is further improved and production is ramped up to meet increased demand.

I think you also forgot to include the further overall savings due to lower polution.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Harvey
If you think Yucca Mountain is an answer, think again:Yucca Mountain could leak nuclear waste, says scientist

True, Yucca Mountain can't be a total solution to disposing of nuclear waste, which is why we need to invest in reprocessing techniques. I would prefer breeder reactors, as they would extend the lifetime of our uranium supplies by over an order of magnitude, but you could always build a subcritical accelerator-driven reactor to transform all of the dangerous long half-life waste.

If you don't think seepage is a problem, ask the residents around Hanford

Hanford is in no way comparable to a modern nuclear power plant. It was founded as an experimental site in World War II, where the plutonium for the first nuclear bomb was manufactured. Military endeavors and 1940s era technology are tremendously riskier and produced signficantly different types of waste than 21st century civilian nuclear power plants, like pebble bed reactors.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Well gee wiz, I've read quite a bit and I still don't understand. There's so much contradictory info and analysis...

While there's a lot of contrarian publications, if you read the actual scientific journals on climate change, there's no contradiction to the observation of global warming. I haven't found any, and a recent published survey[1] of over 900 articles couldn't find any articles that disputed that humanity was causing global warming. If you want a global warming source on the web written by actual climate scientists, check out http://www.realclimate.org/

[1] Science, Vol 306, Issue 5702, 1686 , 3 December 2004.

 

[zendari]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: zendari
There are 5 million corporations in this country. Nice of you to rant on about one of them.

There are many more than five million of Californians, and millions more in other states who got ripped off by Enron, and they weren't the only energy company in on the conspiracy. Several others were in on this scheme, and this is not the only example of corporate greed at the expense of the public.

Translation: Those evil corporations make too much money! It's unfair, I should be entitled to freebies that others pay for. Corporations shouldn't be allowed to make money.

You reply to my previous post with your pissy little crybaby statement and make snide remarks about "liberals," and now that I showed you the facts about real criminal behavior by real energy companies, you try to duck the point with irrelevant garbage about how many other corporations there are. :roll:

AN energy company. There are far more honest corporations in the energy industry and otherwise

It has nothing to do with political definitions of "liberal" or "conservative." When you're talking about nukes, the consequenses of ANY failure can result in a catastrophy of historic proportions, and the level of concern and care has to be equally high. That is TRULY conservative from an engineering standpoint.

Like I said, liberals are opposed to just about all forms of energy. They just want it cheap. Oh, and of course, the evil corporate CEOs can't profit from selling it

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: zendari
.
.
.
.

Edited to show the entire intellectual content of your ridiculous post. :roll:

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: zendari

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: zendari
There are 5 million corporations in this country. Nice of you to rant on about one of them.

There are many more than five million of Californians, and millions more in other states who got ripped off by Enron, and they weren't the only energy company in on the conspiracy. Several others were in on this scheme, and this is not the only example of corporate greed at the expense of the public.

Translation: Those evil corporations make too much money! It's unfair, I should be entitled to freebies that others pay for. Corporations shouldn't be allowed to make money.

You reply to my previous post with your pissy little crybaby statement and make snide remarks about "liberals," and now that I showed you the facts about real criminal behavior by real energy companies, you try to duck the point with irrelevant garbage about how many other corporations there are. :roll:

AN energy company. There are far more honest corporations in the energy industry and otherwise

It has nothing to do with political definitions of "liberal" or "conservative." When you're talking about nukes, the consequenses of ANY failure can result in a catastrophy of historic proportions, and the level of concern and care has to be equally high. That is TRULY conservative from an engineering standpoint.

Like I said, liberals are opposed to just about all forms of energy. They just want it cheap. Oh, and of course, the evil corporate CEOs can't profit from selling it

Why dont you leave your parents basement for once and see what the real world is like.

I have worked in places where the air will eat away your cars paint while it is in the parking lot. And the company will give you a voucher to get it repainted at the local "Macoos". They also will let you retire after 20 years with full benifits because your health has degraded so badly. After you experience places like it appauls me when people like you complain about how coorporations need to have laxed environmental standards to make MORE of a profit.



Edit you don't even watch movies that much do you?

 

[Todd33]

Are the liberals willing to pay more for cleaner energy and more expensive consumer products that comes with environmental regulation? You can talk the talk, now walk the walk.

Yes we are. Who buys the Hybrid cars? Who buys the SUVs? I always weigh my purchase based on more than money. I could have bought a cheaper car with less mpg, I didn't. I could shop at Walmart and encourage their ways, I don't.

The Republican party is all abouyt short term gain, all about $$. They use Armegeddon as a way to not care about the furure. I hope Jesus hurries and takes all the crazies away soon, leave the Earth for the rest of us.


But, as a physicist, I do support nuclear energy.

 

[zendari]

Who buys SUVs? Rich Elitist Liberals like John Kerry.

Q: What kind of vehicles does your family drive?
A: We have some SUVs. We have a Jeep. We have a couple of Chrysler minivans. We have a PT Cruiser up in Boston. I have an old Dodge 600 that I keep in the Senate. ... We also have a Chevy, a big Suburban.

Text


And who decided to offer tax credits to people buying hybrids?

The republicans and President Bush.


But I am happy you actually stand by principles instead of parroting them.

Edited to show the entire intellectual content of your ridiculous post.

The 4 words in your sig have long since exhausted any intellectual content in your brain. Old age I suppose.