The Egytian Revolution and the larger mid-east

[bfdd]

How come all you morons who constantly attack Israel can never fucking answer a goddamn question? All you do is go "BUT ISRAEL" and never fucking EVER EVER EVER look at any fault of the Palestinians. I look at the situation, I don't just read pro-Israeli crap either, I've read things from all sides, studied somewhat the situation. Currently, the Palestinians have no one else to blame but themselves for their current situation. If you try to put the blame on anyone else, you're a fucking idiot with an agenda so fuck you anyways.

Where were the Palestinians during the 9 month settlement freeze? None of you can say a fucking word about it because they didn't do shit until the Israeli's lifted the freeze then they bitched. For 9 months they did nothing. The way I see it the Palestinians are lucky for anything they currently have and should thank Israel for Israel's kindness in not wiping every single one of them off the planet.



oh and before someone can call me a racist or say I hate Palestinians, I don't. I want the best for all peoples, but those who refuse to help themselves are lost causes. I'm also not saying Israel should have or is going to take those actions, but they could have by now. Israel shows great restraint when dealing with Palestine.

 

[JSt0rm]

How come all you morons who constantly attack Israel can never fucking answer a goddamn question? All you do is go "BUT ISRAEL" and never fucking EVER EVER EVER look at any fault of the Palestinians. I look at the situation, I don't just read pro-Israeli crap either, I've read things from all sides, studied somewhat the situation. Currently, the Palestinians have no one else to blame but themselves for their current situation. If you try to put the blame on anyone else, you're a fucking idiot with an agenda so fuck you anyways.

So wait let me get this straight. The "morons" only look at Israel as being at fault here and you finish the paragraph by saying the Palestinians are solely at fault? buhahahah. Epic. 😀

Look how dumb you are.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Egypt and Tunisia are just the beginning.

be careful what you wish for.....

 

[JSt0rm]

be careful what you wish for.....

Democracy doesn't work eh? Look at the terrorists in charge of the Palestinians.

Of course the iraqi and afgan people probably think terrorists are in charge of the usa so I'm sure it's all perspective. Lets face it, every country has there little group of taliban-esq retards who hop around wanting to kill everything before it kills them. Fear bitches. It defines us.

 

[JEDIYoda]

democracy does not work in thew middle east nor can a culture based in Islam be democratic...sorry truth hurts I know..but live with it!!

 

[JSt0rm]

democracy does not work in thew middle east nor can a culture based in Islam be democratic...sorry truth hurts I know..but live with it!!

I dont think any religion belongs in a democracy. Hopefully Egypt wont go down that path. We will see.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Show me anything in Islam that is democratic??

 

[JSt0rm]

Show me anything in Islam that is democratic??

What are you talking about? I'm talking about religion in general. They all suck. Including the new age bullshit that permeates the southland. bleh.

 

[Lemon law]

democracy does not work in thew middle east nor can a culture based in Islam be democratic...sorry truth hurts I know..but live with it!!

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Gotta say one thing for you JEDIY, Israel may be a democracy and a terrorist state, but Israel is the best living proof that democracy does not work in the mid-east.

And as change occurs, Egypt and other Muslim nations may show that democracy can work in the mid-east.

The times they are a changing. Mubarak lasted 30 years, Israel has lasted 62 years, but unless Israel grows a tenable strategy for long term survival, nothing lasts forever. The last ten years has been an Israeli disaster and the two years of Bozo Netanyuhu has been far worse. Israel is leaking world credibility at an incredible rate, and in the last single year, Israel has lost its last two regional supporters. Leaving Israel without a single regional ally.

 

[JSt0rm]

Leaving Israel without a single regional ally.

Doesn't matter really because they have nukes and the united states' military industrial complex behind them.

 

[Karl Agathon]

Doesn't matter really because they have nukes and the united states' military industrial complex behind them.

Not to mention the fact that im pretty sure most leaders know their cities would be turned to glass by The Samson Option should any of them be foolish to try and wipe out Israel. As for Egypt, I know some members here are frothing at the mouth and salivating thinking the first thing the Egyptians will do is start attacking Isreal. Despite the fact that the Israelis would retaliate right back. The Egyptians finally got what they have wanted for so long. it would be taking two steps back to attack another country and cause themselves misery just when they got their country back. I think most Egyptians care more about domestic issues like feeding their families and wages etc etc instead of the boogyman Israel.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...When three of the five countries with a permanent seat at the UN are majority Germanic, it is easy to see why the UN favours Israel and can not do anything when it violates international laws.

Of China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, which three are "majority Germanic"?

 

[Infohawk]

Of China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, which three are "majority Germanic"?

I'm guessing he's not that smart and is confusing Germanic with European... but interestingly one can argue that France, the UK and the US are majority Germanic. France is named after the Franks, a German tribe. England is named after the Angles, yet another Germanic tribe. The US is majority white and I believe German ancestry is the biggest white ancestry here.

 

[TareX]

Can you provide a source saying that Israel is paying 1/7th the market price of gas? The only source I found said that it was "less than $3/therm", but the price was increased during a renegotiation in 2009. This is not an unreasonable price depending on what year the original deal was made.

What's your source?

Today, Israel is getting its gas from Egypt for less than production costs.

 

[TareX]

Show me anything in Islam that is democratic??

Seriously?

I usually don't engage in debate with idiots... but seriously?

You do know that the first 9 leaders in Islam after Prophet Muhammed passed away were elected democratically, right? The current "islamic" countries have really very, very little to do with islam.

You also do realize that women's right to vote for their leaders is -not only a Islamic right, but a Qur'anic right i.e. It was mentioned in the Qur'an, plain and clear. Prophet Muhammed himself wasn't made leader of muslims till women gave him their vote.

Rule in Islam, is based on system called "Shura - شورى - Consultation", where a cabinet of elected officials representing the different sectors of the people consult through the process of law making. Sound familiar?

That said, again, and again, people want a civil state. The last thing I want is giving some man the power of God, and making his words the words of God. No thanks.

 

[JSt0rm]

excuse jedi he hates muslims and middle easterners. He has been indoctrinated. He is the same as the taliban.

 

[bfdd]

So wait let me get this straight. The "morons" only look at Israel as being at fault here and you finish the paragraph by saying the Palestinians are solely at fault? buhahahah. Epic. 😀

Look how dumb you are.

Yes at the moment they are at fault for their position. Like I said, where were they during those 9 months of settlement freezes?

 

[JSt0rm]

Yes at the moment they are at fault for their position. Like I said, where were they during those 9 months of settlement freezes?

they are at fault for their position? Yes of course we are all responsible for our own positions (how profound!). But they are not entirely at fault for the situation they are in.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The Egyptians finally got what they have wanted for so long. it would be taking two steps back to attack another country and cause themselves misery just when they got their country back. I think most Egyptians care more about domestic issues like feeding their families and wages etc etc instead of the boogyman Israel.

Never truer words spoken!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

But they are not entirely at fault for the situation they are in.

In this case YES, they are entirely at fault for not doing nothing during the 9 month freeze!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Seriously?

I usually don't engage in debate with idiots... but seriously?

You do know that the first 9 leaders in Islam after Prophet Muhammed passed away were elected democratically, right? The current "islamic" countries have really very, very little to do with islam.

You also do realize that women's right to vote for their leaders is -not only a Islamic right, but a Qur'anic right i.e. It was mentioned in the Qur'an, plain and clear. Prophet Muhammed himself wasn't made leader of muslims till women gave him their vote.

Rule in Islam, is based on system called "Shura - شورى - Consultation", where a cabinet of elected officials representing the different sectors of the people consult through the process of law making. Sound familiar?

That said, again, and again, people want a civil state. The last thing I want is giving some man the power of God, and making his words the words of God. No thanks.

Seriously you really have no clue do you? I usually don`t engage in debate with idiots iether.

lets look at what wikipedia says about islam and democracy --
Today, two groups prevent the genuine reform movement seeking religious democracy: One group consists of those who think the less freedom a society enjoys, the stronger religion will be. They oppose the democratic process. The second is the group including those who believe that religion should be put aside from the scene of life in order to establish democracy and freedom."[20]

Two major arguments against the possibility of a democratic Islamic state are as follow:

The Secularist argument is that democracy requires that the people be sovereign and that religion and state be separated. Without this separation there can be no freedom from tyranny. This does not apply however when people themselves choose Islam as the 'religion of the state'.[citation needed] In democratic terms, this is not inherently different from ratifying non-Islamic rules.[citation needed]
The Legalist argument is that, democracy may be accepted in a Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. society but it can never enjoy a general acceptance in an Islamic society, because non-Muslim societies do not have Sharia, the comprehensive system of life to which its adherents should be committed. In this view anything outside of the rigid, but pervasive, interpretation of the Sharia is rejected and the absolute sovereignty of God prevails such that there is no role, but interpretation, for the sovereignty of people in the ethics of the state. Mohammed Omar and his followers never made any claims that the Islamic State of Afghanistan was any sort of democracy, while the leaders of Iran do (they call it 'mardomsalarie dini', which means 'religious democracy').
Islamic democratic systems do not have the same human rights issues as other democracies. Some matters which may cause friction include appeasing anti-democratic Islamists, non-Muslim religious minorities, the role of Islam in state education (especially with regard to Sunni and Shia traditions), women's rights (see: Islamic feminist movement). This is further complicated by the deriving of punishments from Fiqh, or Islamic jurisprudence, where, as in other legal systems, precedent assists the judiciary to come to a decision. Since the judiciary is not independent of a system of religious codes that are essentially the teachings of the Life of Mohammed and that all understanding of Allah and the world is fixed therein and is not subject to human understanding outside of the inspired wisdom of Mohammed, Islam itself has been hampered from developing new ideas.[21]
nice try tareX but you are living in a delusional world if you beleive at all that our form of democracy was fashioned from islam...you are also delusional if you can`t see that our form of democracy as islam stands now is NOT compatable in this day and age. We are not talking about what has been, we are talking about what is now!!You and Lemon law must be partaking of the same mushrooms....

http://www.payvand.com/news/05/aug/1256.html

It should be noted rather that it is Islam that poses a formidable challenge to democracy. Although, it is true that the core principles of democracy are compatible with Islam, it should be noted that it is just one of the many components of Islam. To support an idea or a system that does not serve the ultimate objective of our existence is of no use. The "majority is right" principle is equally dangerous. One extra vote is sufficient to make anything legal. The problem with this is that numeral majorities do not always carry the weight of moral justice. The Holy Quran not only denounces tyrants, but it also denounces those who follow tyrants and obey their orders. This is exactly why Imam Hussein rose up against the tyrant Yazid in Karbala. It was for the ideal of justice, which is the supreme purpose of model human governance that he rose up. Imam Ali used to say the one who submits to oppression is worse than the oppressor.

Moroever, it is futile to measure Islam against changing human standards. A secular state is simply unable to cultivate virtue because of relativism. According to this, all truth is relative, what everyone believes is true for him, and all beliefs are equally valid. This sounds a bit like tolerance. People attempt to be so tolerant that they end up tolerating intolerance and immorality. But, prostitution can not be both right and wrong. Legislation in such a system becomes a mockery. In a society, where everyone has a right to believe according to their own standards, everyone in effect has a right to be wrong. The thesis that all points of view are equally valid is clearly ridiculous. The absence of permanent values leads to hedonism, making pleasure the greatest attainable good. And we see this today in America, freedom translates to the glorification of satisfying one's carnal desires. What then is the difference between humans and animals? Thus, freedom becomes the freedom to pursue self-destructive tendencies. This is in utter contradiction with the Islamic injunction of "enjoin the good and forbid the wrong."

This modern pursuit of happiness has resulted in extreme expressions of escapism, such as alcoholism and drug abuse. In fact, this is probably the only country in the world where "vacation packages" are promoted at great lengths, for people wishing to escape the misery of daily life. All of this is contradictory to the objective of Islam, where each citizen is to humble oneself for the interests of the community and serve and please Allah. In the West, they say render unto God what is God and unto Caesar what is Caesar, but in the Muslim world they say Din wa Dawlat (religion and state). Today Christianity has become a Sunday religion and they want Islam to become a Friday religion.

Democracy, remember simply evolved as a response to the problems of tyranny and aristocracy in Europe. That system was simply unsustainable, so the illusion of giving the public a feeling of equality and participation was fostered. Furthermore, democracy is going to be the basis of all future interventions, since the term evokes much excitement for people today. Washington embarks upon its crusades in the name of democracy. But occupations will never lead to democracy. If democracy is a prerequisite for the flourishing of freedom, I can't help to disbelieve this, because America is relatively the "freest" country in the world, yet its people are the most brainwashed. However, this can be explained due to the dominance of corporate media, which possess an unprecedented capacity to manipulate information and shape public opinion.

If democracy is a prereq for success, Cuba defies this. Cuba is not a democracy, yet it has achieved first world education and health standards in a 3rd world country. Its literacy rates and infant mortality now rival or some would argue even outstrip those of the United States. Cuba sends 50,000 doctors to work for free in about 100 third world countries. It has developed pharmaceutical and biotech industries that are the most advanced in Latin America. Moreover, let us recall that in Bosnia it was democracy which legitimized the worst war crimes in Europe since the Nazi's. This Islamophobic trend in the West was deepened after the triumph of the Islamic revolution in Iran and its enemies have made no secret of "trying to extinguish the light of Allah." A few years back, I remember reading the The New York Times and it stated the "red menace is now gone, but here is Islam." Yes, here is Islam and it will shake the very foundations of the West, secularism and modernity, two of the most totalitarian principles in the contemporary world seeking to impose itself upon all traditional and native societies. It is no wonder the world was baffled when Iran had the only religious revolution in the Modern world. And whether one agrees or disagrees, everyone will be forced to confront this issue, since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.

 

[JSt0rm]

In this case YES, they are entirely at fault for not doing nothing during the 9 month freeze!!

I'm not talking about the 9 month freeze whatever. They hate you. You hate them. Time to kill. Go.

 

[TareX]

Seriously you really have no clue do you? [and then her proceeds to prove me right].

You lost me at the "Islamic state of Afghanistan".

Rrrright.... I forgot that in Islam, weed and drug industries should be the only form of national income.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_democracy

You might want to look into how Islamic leaders were elected early on in Islam, or how women voted for the nation's leaders.

PS - I have "some" clues. But thanks for your persistently constructive input, as usual.

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I guess for Egypt, the main concern here is getting back the stolen billions, not only from the Mubarak's but all his goons... This is key to rebuild the country and put that transparent democracy to good use.

In a year, we'll have a good idea regarding the direction this reform movement is heading towards... in 5 years, I guess there will be palpable improvement.

I read somewhere that Brazil made a radical transformation within 8 years...

 

[The Green Bean]

I'm guessing he's not that smart and is confusing Germanic with European... but interestingly one can argue that France, the UK and the US are majority Germanic. France is named after the Franks, a German tribe. England is named after the Angles, yet another Germanic tribe. The US is majority white and I believe German ancestry is the biggest white ancestry here.

I did not mean European. I did mean that the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, and later the immigrants to the USA are almost all Germanic. I can't find the article which said that 80% of the American population can be traced back to a German ancestry. White is too broad. Russians are white. Chinese are white. Arabs are white. Using white for the Germanic peoples is racist in itself.

 

[JEDIYoda]

You do know that the first 9 leaders in Islam after Prophet Muhammed passed away were elected democratically, right? The current "islamic" countries have really very, very little to do with islam.

You also do realize that women's right to vote for their leaders is -not only a Islamic right, but a Qur'anic right i.e. It was mentioned in the Qur'an, plain and clear. Prophet Muhammed himself wasn't made leader of muslims till women gave him their vote.

Rule in Islam, is based on system called "Shura - شورى - Consultation", where a cabinet of elected officials representing the different sectors of the people consult through the process of law making. Sound familiar?

That said, again, and again, people want a civil state. The last thing I want is giving some man the power of God, and making his words the words of God. No thanks.

You do know that the first 9 leaders in Islam after Prophet Muhammed passed away were elected democratically, right? The current "islamic" countries have really very, very little to do with islam.
Are you sure that you want to go there??
THE SYSTEM OF KHILAFAT IN ISLAM
At the death of the Holy Prophet, the Muslims lost not only their prophet but also their spiritual, religious and political leader. The Holy Prophet had not designated any successor during his own lifetime and the young Muslim community could not possibly survive without one. Someone had to lead the community and provide spiritual, social, legal and political direction. A leader, therefore, had to be selected who would not only be acceptable to the people but also worthy of the Prophet's ideals and objectives. The choice of the Muslims fell on Abu Bakr who was then elected as the first Khalifah or Successor of the Holy Prophet. This election or nomination of leaders in the Muslim community grew into an institution called the Khilafat or Caliphate.
Like many other Islamic institutions, the system of Khilafat changed and evolved over a period of time. Not all Khalifahs were elected in exactly the same manner, nor were the political conditions identical at the demise of each Khalifah that would merit the adoption of one fixed system of election. Similarly, not all Khalifahs were alike in their piety, statesmanship, courage, foresight and charisma.
As long as the Holy Prophet was alive, he kept in check the tribal rivalries that existed among the Arabs. After his death, these rivalries came out in the open and played a significant role in manipulating the power vested in the office of the Khilafat.


You also do realize that women's right to vote for their leaders is -not only a Islamic right, but a Qur'anic right i.e. It was mentioned in the Qur'an, plain and clear. Prophet Muhammed himself wasn't made leader of muslims till women gave him their vote. -- there is no proof to back up youyr claim! Especially when there is tons of proof to dispel your claim! Especially whyen we look at how women were treated back then!

Rule in Islam, is based on system called "Shura - شورى - Consultation", where a cabinet of elected officials representing the different sectors of the people consult through the process of law making. Sound familiar? -- Show me more than one Islamic country where what you claim is the case.....you mean rule in a perfect Islamic society....nice try at spinning your words into attempting to make this sound like a democratic process, but you and I know that is very far from the truth!!

That said, again, and again, people want a civil state. The last thing I want is giving some man the power of God, and making his words the words of God. No thanks.