The Economy is Growing, Productivity is Exploding, Profits are Up, but wages are not?

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dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Gand1
IT is nice to see the reports of "everybody" is doing better but.... I still don't see any signs of state problems improving. If the economy is now doing that well why don't we see our states budgets and other money issues starting to improve? :confused:

Depends on which state you live:)

CkG
Apparently the State Caddy lives is doing incredibly Fantastic including the whole new town that has built up around his neighborhood Walmart. Looks like we should all move there.
That state is Denial.

Actually you live here in Iowa too - do you not? Please inform dave of our unemployment rate here. Also please inform him of our financial status. We aren't in dire straights like alot of states because we had things in place to prevent disasters like some states are experiencing(although there are still some things that need addressed;))

Denial? Nah - I'm here in Reality:D

CkG

Dire straights, high unemployment??? :Q , that can't be from the homeland of the guy that says the Economy is Soaring and Booming and getting better everyday and creating more jobs than losing and higher paid jobs than ever before. :confused:

 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: Gand1
IT is nice to see the reports of "everybody" is doing better but.... I still don't see any signs of state problems improving. If the economy is now doing that well why don't we see our states budgets and other money issues starting to improve? :confused:

Depends on which state you live:)

CkG
Apparently the State Caddy lives is doing incredibly Fantastic including the whole new town that has built up around his neighborhood Walmart. Looks like we should all move there.
That state is Denial.

Actually you live here in Iowa too - do you not? Please inform dave of our unemployment rate here. Also please inform him of our financial status. We aren't in dire straights like alot of states because we had things in place to prevent disasters like some states are experiencing(although there are still some things that need addressed;))

Denial? Nah - I'm here in Reality:D

CkG

Dire straights, high unemployment??? :Q , that can't be from the homeland of the guy that says the Economy is Soaring and Booming and getting better everyday and creating more jobs than losing and higher paid jobs than ever before. :confused:

Seems you didn't read what I posted, no? Our unemployment rate is quite good mind you and our state's financial picture is quite solid inspite of the Governor playing with some budgetary things against the will of the legislature(and possibly the law) who voted and passed the budget.

Seriously - I'm leaving in a few minutes and my not be able to logon until I get back on Saturday. Please take this time to re-read what I've posted in the past and then rethink what you keep saying. Either that or you can take my suggestion to spend time looking for a job instead of whining here. OR for a third option you can work on that new years resolution I suggested;)
Your call dave.:) Happy New Year to all:D

CkG
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Dire straights, high unemployment??? :Q , that can't be from the homeland of the guy that says the Economy is Soaring and Booming and getting better everyday and creating more jobs than losing and higher paid jobs than ever before. :confused:

Seems you didn't read what I posted, no? Our unemployment rate is quite good mind you and our state's financial picture is quite solid inspite of the Governor playing with some budgetary things against the will of the legislature(and possibly the law) who voted and passed the budget.

A good liberal (MCOWEN and Co) doesn't read for comprehension and understanding. If they did, the world would be completely different than they have made themselves believe it is. They read until they find a few words that they can take out of context in order to support their wacko beliefs. Somehow it is both amusing and sad at the same time.
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
The sorry truth is that CEOs have not given workers wage increases in line with the productivity gains. Shareholders are benefitting, but not workers. This may not be so bad because if the market keeps moving ahead optimism will rise and job growth and competition for workers might occur. This is the traditional view, but may be thwarted by a rise in interest rates which reduces corporate borrowing and expansion. In the end, the workers may well take it in the end. :)

The political problem for the President is not wage stagnation but the large number of manufacturing jobs that have been lost.

-Robert
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Originally posted by: chess9


The political problem for the President is not wage stagnation but the large number of manufacturing jobs that have been lost.

-Robert

If the cost of manpower yearly increases with 4 per cent and the price of machinery yearly decreases with 2 per cent why not replace manpower with machines. Unfortunately for Bush machines do not vote.

Better start a domestic surveillance program (in the name of the war on terror) so that we can identify and remove the ringleaders of the working class when they finally revolt 15 years or so from now. :Q
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Can't figure it out? It's really simple. In past recoveries, the jobs were still there, in the sense that the factory or data center or whatever was still there, just not fully staffed. As demand increased, the jobs were filled, and life progressed for everybody. When you went back to work after a layoff, the wages and benefits were the same or better. And new jobs were created, too, to accomodate an expanding workforce. These new jobs don't necessarily pay as well as the old jobs, however...

That' s not what's happening today- in many instances, the factory is gone, replaced by new factory in China operating at full output, thank you very much, and that will fill demand, at a higher profit. So the stock market recovers, but jobs don't. Wages are depressed because of low demand for labor. Those who kept their jobs are forced to work more hours to maintain the bottom line...

So productivity looks good, but total production is down in manufacturing, for example, and total compensation is more unevenly distributed. Those at the top, however, are making lemonade out of lemons, as it were-

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_12032003

As to when, or even if that will trickle down to the rest of us remains to be seen...
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Dire straights, high unemployment??? :Q , that can't be from the homeland of the guy that says the Economy is Soaring and Booming and getting better everyday and creating more jobs than losing and higher paid jobs than ever before. :confused:

Seems you didn't read what I posted, no? Our unemployment rate is quite good mind you and our state's financial picture is quite solid inspite of the Governor playing with some budgetary things against the will of the legislature(and possibly the law) who voted and passed the budget.

A good liberal (MCOWEN and Co) doesn't read for comprehension and understanding. If they did, the world would be completely different than they have made themselves believe it is. They read until they find a few words that they can take out of context in order to support their wacko beliefs. Somehow it is both amusing and sad at the same time.

I presume you conclude the liberal should read the conservative dogma to become edified to the reality about them which by necessity is written by the all knowing authors from the right. Some liberal folks have a habit of actually looking at the ground to insure it exists before we step next. We learned this lesson from reading the proposed reality from the right and found we actually were walking in and amongst the blue sky clouds. It provides quite a reality as we thud to ground... I prefer to experience reality than read it from the right.

 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Actually you live here in Iowa too - do you not? Please inform dave of our unemployment rate here. Also please inform him of our financial status. We aren't in dire straights like alot of states because we had things in place to prevent disasters like some states are experiencing(although there are still some things that need addressed;))

Denial? Nah - I'm here in Reality:D

CkG
The reality is that unemployment is still high, but we are seeing signs of improvement. The tech sector is still hurting badly. My company is hiring a few tech positions, but that makes us a standout in the area. We also have some non-tech positions open. There are still companies announcing (and concealing) layoffs, but the pace has dropped. We've had at least one major expansion announced. The local paper just ran an article about our loss of manufacturing jobs. They've run a couple of recent articles about long-term unemployed.

The State of Iowa is strapped financially, but nothing catastrophic at the state level. The impact of state cuts has been more severe on local communities. The City of Des Moines is facing substantial cuts again, including layoffs, but its budget has been a fiasco ever since they hired an incompetent City Manager several years ago. I haven't heard anything dramatic from other municipalities, just the usual cut-backs. The Des Moines school district announced a layoff, but later shelved it. Other schools have announced cuts of one sort or another, but there seem to be more leaving vacancies unfilled instead of layoffs.

In short, a mixed bag of good news and bad. The signs are hopeful; I hope they have legs. I don't think Iowa is hurting as much as some areas of the country.

 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Can't figure it out? It's really simple. In past recoveries, the jobs were still there, in the sense that the factory or data center or whatever was still there, just not fully staffed. As demand increased, the jobs were filled, and life progressed for everybody. When you went back to work after a layoff, the wages and benefits were the same or better. And new jobs were created, too, to accomodate an expanding workforce. These new jobs don't necessarily pay as well as the old jobs, however...

That' s not what's happening today- in many instances, the factory is gone, replaced by new factory in China operating at full output, thank you very much, and that will fill demand, at a higher profit. So the stock market recovers, but jobs don't. Wages are depressed because of low demand for labor. Those who kept their jobs are forced to work more hours to maintain the bottom line...

So productivity looks good, but total production is down in manufacturing, for example, and total compensation is more unevenly distributed. Those at the top, however, are making lemonade out of lemons, as it were-

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_12032003

As to when, or even if that will trickle down to the rest of us remains to be seen...

Where have you been Jhhn? This trickle down "Bush Economy is Fantastic", those empty buildings that used to be Factories around here and towns around the Country are filled with more jobs than ever and higher wages too. You must be having a bad dream or something. When you wake up have a glass of Lemonade.
 

dirtboy

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,745
1
81
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I presume you conclude the liberal should read the conservative dogma to become edified to the reality about them which by necessity is written by the all knowing authors from the right. Some liberal folks have a habit of actually looking at the ground to insure it exists before we step next. We learned this lesson from reading the proposed reality from the right and found we actually were walking in and amongst the blue sky clouds. It provides quite a reality as we thud to ground... I prefer to experience reality than read it from the right.

If you always think there is a storm on the horizon, then that is what you will always see.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,817
6,778
126
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I presume you conclude the liberal should read the conservative dogma to become edified to the reality about them which by necessity is written by the all knowing authors from the right. Some liberal folks have a habit of actually looking at the ground to insure it exists before we step next. We learned this lesson from reading the proposed reality from the right and found we actually were walking in and amongst the blue sky clouds. It provides quite a reality as we thud to ground... I prefer to experience reality than read it from the right.

If you always think there is a storm on the horizon, then that is what you will always see.
Jesus, that's what he was telling you. Look if you want to know the weather. Your spouting advise without comprehending it inwardly. What you think you know he knows he does not. You imagine the storm, not he.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
The sorry truth is that CEOs have not given workers wage increases in line with the productivity gains. Shareholders are benefitting, but not workers. This may not be so bad because if the market keeps moving ahead optimism will rise and job growth and competition for workers might occur.
U.S. Productivity gains in the last 5 years have almost entirely been the result of massive investment in capital goods between 1995 and 2000.

IOW, US productivity is a shining bright spot, not because Fred is toiling away longer, or harder, or faster, but because six Freds were replaced by an automated welding machine that doesn't come to work with a hang-over or call in sick, or because a new materials and purchasing management system has made Fred a lot more productive. As such, you wouldn't expect Fred to get a raise, since he isn't responsible for the increase in productivity. The person who designed and implemented the system, however, probably did get a raise or bonus...and rightly so.

Shareholders are benefitting? lol! Do you own any stock on which you receive a dividend? How's your quarterly check looking? If you're the average shareholder, pretty damned anemic. Even if dividends were strong, and they're not, but if they were - GOOD! Shareholders are still reeling from the thousands of dollars they lost in the dot.bomb crash.

How's the value of your stock vs. what you paid for it between 1996~2000? If you're the average shareholder (who invested any significant amount between 1996~2000), pretty damned anemic. It will be a couple more years before many shareholders see the value of their stock surpass what was paid for it, longer if they bought at the peak of the bubble.

Dividends weren't even all that strong during the "Greatest Economy", since company performance was often a feat of creative accounting, not genuine earnings. It wasn't a bounty of dividends that attracted investors, it was the equity (ROI), or the promise of it, whether actual or perceived.
So productivity looks good, but total production is down in manufacturing, for example, and total compensation is more unevenly distributed. Those at the top, however, are making lemonade out of lemons, as it were-

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_12032003

As to when, or even if that will trickle down to the rest of us remains to be seen...
lol! The only thing the 'Economic Snapshot' proves is that earnings (profits) were well-poised to increase because earnings had been extremely low, while wages and benefits aren't keeping pace with earnings because they were already inordinately high, as I explained above.

Wages didn't plummet to negative levels during the recession, earnings did, while wages have remained stable. Any economist who attempts to correlate wages with corporate earnings in an economic recovery is implicitly confessing his own incompetence or intellectual dishonesty (agenda).

Wages are not based on earnings and no credible economist would attempt to make this correlation. Wages are based on a number of factors; labor supply and demand, meritous service, length of service, and one factor that nobody has mentioned - inflation. Inflation has been essentially nill the last few years and the Consumer Price Index actually declined recently. Why would employees be getting raises when inflation is almost zero?

There is an entity whose income is based on company earnings, they're called "shareholders", not wage earners. One of the advantages of the wage-earner is that their wages not be tied to earnings, since earnings rise and fall in cyclical, often unpredictable, fashion. This is the risk born by the shareholder, not a wage earner.

Employees don't get stiffed when earnings are zero, shareholders do. If wages should change in-step with earnings, it only makes sense that wages should decrease in-step with earnings, as well. So, if the company posts two quarters of loss, it stands to reason that employees wouldn't be paid for those two quarters, just like shareholders. Or at the least, their wages and benefits would decrease by an amount commensurate with the delta in earnings.

Unless we are suggesting that employees should always reap the upsides of increased earnings, but never the downsides of decreased earnings? Again, no competent economist would promote this model because its fantasy.

If someone wants their income to be based on corporate earnings, there is a way to make that happen = start buying stock. If someone wants to be insulated from the roller coaster like highs and lows of corporate earnings, there is a way to do that - fill out an employment application.
 

Ferocious

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2000
4,584
2
71
The trickle down theory is a proven failure.

Fair middle class wages will exist for one reason only......when people act collectively.

 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
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The trickle down theory is a proven failure.
lol! Too bad no leading Economist agrees with you. Well, I'm sure there are a few "respected" flat earthers in France who still cling desperately to discredited 19th century Economics thinking. In fact, I have no doubt.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The trickle down theory is a proven failure.
lol! Too bad no leading Economist agrees with you. Well, I'm sure there are a few "respected" flat earthers in France who still cling desperately to discredited 19th century Economics thinking. In fact, I have no doubt.

No self respecting Laffer like supply sider would argue there but, there are a few Demand siders about..

 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: RobCur
Originally posted by: tnitsuj
The GDP is definately growing, productivity is up significantly, and corporate profits are up. My 401k is doing well, and my other investments are alse in pretty fine shape. However, (and I may be wrong) average wages are not going up. This may or may not be a bad thing. Any economics guys want to explain the upside/downside of our current economic pattern.
haha, i'll believe it when I see it happen myself but is probably another scam used by bush administration to up his rating. btw, most of us who have lost everything will never see a penny back, those that held on to their stock that bottomled out till now recovered but its still just a miniority part of society which really don't really mean quat. sad huh?

i blame Clinton for not regulating the market more during the 90's market boom time. the tech companies that went bust did so for a reason [they had no actual product or service for which you were actually investing your money in] and Clinton turned a blind eye, all for political gain and the vain hope for a legacy.

so, now, because of Clintons indifference, hes rich and you're poor. But look at the bright side, you'll both be getting tax refunds :D
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Funny what people will actually believe, tcsenter. Here's an interview with a Nobel Laureate economist-

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,258983,00.html

And he's not alone, of course, but the Repubs have gone to great lengths to market their fantasy for the last 25 years or so. The only thing that supply side economics has proven is that the economy has been quite resilient, and has recovered in the past, no matter how badly mismanaged. The current round of looting, if successful, may just change all that....
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: tcsenter
The trickle down theory is a proven failure.
lol! Too bad no leading Economist agrees with you. Well, I'm sure there are a few "respected" flat earthers in France who still cling desperately to discredited 19th century Economics thinking. In fact, I have no doubt.
Do you have any documentation to support this claim? I ask because I remember reading something many years ago that suggested Laffer and his supply-siders were, in fact, a very tiny minority, and were regarded as "cranks" by mainstream economists. We all remember Bush Sr.'s comment about voodoo economics.

The supply-siders gained respectability under Reagan only because they told him what he wanted to hear, or so the story goes. The only reason "Reaganomics" seemed to work is because the Fed dramatically changed its monetary policy at the same time.

Anyway, links please. I would like to see evidence supporting economists' near-universal acclaim for supply-side economics. Thanks.
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Joseph Stiglitz among others disagree about the trickle down economy:

"He was one of 350 top economists who signed a high-profile letter in March warning President Bush of the risk that chronic deficits would imperil public pensions and healthcare provision.

'It is not just that they do not pay much attention to it but they are positively engaged in increasing inequality,' says Stiglitz.

Roaring Nineties, his new book, due out in autumn, will contain an account of his time at the White House during the Clinton boom years. In the first two years of the current Bush administration, that boom has been reclaimed as the ultimate success of Reaganomics.

'There's no evidence that the pace of productivity growth in the 1980s was different to that of the 1970s, labour force participation was no better, savings were no higher,' Stiglitz says. 'There's no economic evidence in favour of these Reagan supply-siders.' "

And:

This month the Nobel prize-winning economist returned to Britain as an acidic economic polemicist, with a more direct message about the US economy. There will not be a robust recovery, and the fault can be traced to Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan's actions during the Nineties, and the policy failures of President Bush.

'More jobs have been lost under Bush than since Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression,' he said in an interview. 'In the private sector more money has been wasted through misallocation of capital in the stock-market bubble than the government could ever manage.'

In a week in which US stock markets hit 16-month highs, surely there is some room for optimism? Stiglitz was having none of it. 'The huge tax cut in the US was very badly designed to stimulate the economy. And there has been a huge increase in mainly military spending. Yet what is remarkable is how little stimulus has been given. The US economy is still in a precarious state,' he said.
...

'Dealing with the deficit will absorb the US political economy for years to come. We're back to the Reagan era. [/u]The trade deficit has the underlying problem of what will happen when foreigners decide to stop funding the US deficit. On the private side there is a huge gap in private pension funds. Any other economy would be under water.'[/u]
...

'What is likely to happen is more of a languishing malaise, with very weak job recovery. China has joined the WTO and is now the manufacturing engine of the world. Manufacturing is now down to 14 per cent of the economy. Those last few per cent are going to be very painful.'

link
-----

Analysts are now saying that by July jobs will begin to disappear again and towards the end of the year the effects of the temporary measures that are driving the current growth will wear off and the economic growth will slow down or even stagnate again.

Looks like Stiglitz' analysis was spot on to me.
 

Gand1

Golden Member
Nov 17, 1999
1,026
0
76
Well, Happy new Year!!!

Anyhow, I live in PA and our states economy is not in the best of shape. But then again I have a unique job position as where I am an IT employee working for a state university and part of a union. Oh yeah, I belong to one of the largest labor unions in the USA (AFSCME) and we took it in the rear with no vasoline or appology what so ever when the contract was renegotiated! :( I unfortunately do not have a choice to be in the union or not (Which I think is stupid) but for instance our "raises" got postponed until July 2005 and that's a 2 and 3/4 percent raise. Heath care prescription got stupid (i think that's everywhere) but the only way I can reasonably pay for any drugs is by mail order and still all drugs are not covered.

As far as seeing what's condition our state budget is in (not to gloat) but our IT department (20 people) just won a CIO top 100 award. The main criteria for the award this year was cost savings on a very limited budget with less employees! :disgust: Yeah it's nice to win an award that is given to only the top 100 IT departments in the world but let me tell you, working this way hurts!!! Just trying to keep up with the way kids like to exploit things with no money is kinda tough.

Well, I hope our state gets better but there can only be said so much for wishfull thinking!
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Funny what people will actually believe, tcsenter. Here's an interview with a Nobel Laureate economist-

http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,258983,00.html

And he's not alone, of course, but the Repubs have gone to great lengths to market their fantasy for the last 25 years or so. The only thing that supply side economics has proven is that the economy has been quite resilient, and has recovered in the past, no matter how badly mismanaged. The current round of looting, if successful, may just change all that....
lol! Nice try. As I stated, there are certainly some flat earthers around, and I expressly conditioned my comments above by excluding 'discredited' and 'intellectually dishonest' Economists, such as Josh Bivens, who attempts to make a ludicrous correlation between wages and earnings that no first year Econ student would make.

There is no correlation to be made between earnings and wages because wages are not and have never been tied to earnings. This is to the advantage of the wage earner, for the reasons stated and are understood by any first year Econ student. Wage earners and shareholders are two different entities.
Joseph Stiglitz among others disagree about the trickle down economy
Again, I do not entertain the delusions of intellectually dishonest political hacks:
This month the Nobel prize-winning economist returned to Britain as an acidic economic polemicist, with a more direct message about the US economy...There will not be a robust recovery, and the fault can be traced to Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan's actions during the Nineties, and the policy failures of President Bush.

More jobs have been lost under Bush than since Herbert Hoover and the Great Depression,' he said in an interview.
You seem to be a pretty smart fellow. What do you think there is to infer from an "Economist" who has made a name for himself as an "acidic economic polemicist". Well, maybe you're not all that smart, so let me help you out:

Acidic = "caustic"

Polemicist = One who is skilled in polemic arguments; inclined to, or addicted to, controversial arguments or doctrines.

Put together, 'acidic economic polemicist' means "a political hack masquerading as an Economist".

When an Economist parrots the same 'factoids' used by ideological con-artists and political zealots like Michael Moore and other leftist kooks, it should give you a moment's pause before offering them up as 'credible' and 'intellectually honest' scientists.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
Do you have any documentation to support this claim? I ask because I remember reading something many years ago that suggested Laffer and his supply-siders were, in fact, a very tiny minority, and were regarded as "cranks" by mainstream economists. We all remember Bush Sr.'s comment about voodoo economics.
Ah...you "read it". Well, I guess it must be true!

You can also "read it" that the NRA's interpretation of the Second Amendment is shared only by a 'tiny minority' of pro-gun scholars who are paid by the NRA, despite the fact that the NRA's interpretation has mustered so much support among historical, legal, and constitutional scholars, most of whom have no ties with the NRA and are personally opposed to firearms (i.e. antigun), that it is now considered "the standard model" of Second Amendment interpretation.

What are demand-sider's supposed to write? That supply-side economics is the doctrine supported by the consensus of objective and non-partisan Economists? Yea, I'm sure that's what they are going to say.
rolleye.gif
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: tcsenter
Do you have any documentation to support this claim? I ask because I remember reading something many years ago that suggested Laffer and his supply-siders were, in fact, a very tiny minority, and were regarded as "cranks" by mainstream economists. We all remember Bush Sr.'s comment about voodoo economics.
Ah...you "read it". Well, I guess it must be true!
As opposed to "tcsenter said it, so it must be true"?

In other words, no, you do not have anything to support your claim. I will therefore assume it is specious.



By the way, welcome back. Before you disappeared, you made the claim that Bush did not try to connect Iraq with terrorism. When I presented evidence from the White House clearly showing you were wrong, you dodged it for a week until finally saying you would address it "in due time". Is it "due time" yet? Are you finally ready to acknowledge your claim was false? If not, I'm not sure how you can expect us to find credibility in anything else you say.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,949
575
126
As opposed to "tcsenter said it, so it must be true"?

In other words, no, you do not have anything to support your claim.
Actually, it was not me who made the first assertion...remember?
The trickle down theory is a proven failure.
I responded with all of the "support" Ferocious was gracious enough to provide for his assertion. So if we want to start demanding support, perhaps it is Fericious where your inquiry should begin, since he began this exchange.

As you know, "support" is the obligation of the person making the assertion. We've already been treated to "support" from "acidic economics polemicists", whose political biases are self-evident in their own commentary.
By the way, welcome back. Before you disappeared, you made the claim that Bush did not try to connect Iraq with terrorism. When I presented evidence from the White House clearly showing you were wrong, you dodged it for a week until finally saying you would address it "in due time". Is it "due time" yet?
Yes! I had forgot about you. First, you linked to a SUMMARY version of the actual Whitehouse correspondence to Congress, not the letter in its entirety, unfortunately for you.

I'm not at home currently, but when I get back and have access to all my links and documents, I will show what a big difference it can make when you cite the wrong information.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
TCsenter & Bow are having a pretty good exchange on documents that apparently do not exist, meanwhile back at the Farm I don't understand why the Title has not been changed yet, Wages have been clearly shown to have INCREASED by a whole .1 to the highest levels ever so it SHOULD be changed since it is clearly WRONG.