The Economist: A heretical proposal (wrt abortion)

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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Interesting point of view; why not let the extreme right rule the country the way they want; or at least say they want. This would envigorate the electorate to stand up for what they really believe. It is my opinion that at heart Americans are mildly socially liberal and may just need a rude awakening as this writer suggests.

Food for thought.

A heretical proposal
Dec 8th 2005
From The Economist print edition
The Democrats (and abortion rights) might be better off if Roe v Wade were overturned


AS A general rule, Republicans are much happier with American exceptionalism than Democrats. Conservatives celebrate the right of every God-fearing American to carry a semi-automatic in his Kyoto-busting SUV while liberals protest that Europe is greener and safer. But when it comes to abortion, it is the Democrats who are the American exceptionalists.

Most rich countries other than the United States have solved the abortion problem by consulting the electorate?either through the legislature or through referendums. This led to vigorous debates and, broadly, the triumph of abortion rights. Because abortion was legalised democratically, pro-lifers accepted the fact that they had lost and abortion became a settled right. By contrast, in America, abortion is a fundamental right of privacy protected by a 1973 Supreme Court judgment?Roe v Wade.

Few objective outsiders?if it is possible to be such a thing on abortion?would argue that relying on judges rather than popular will has helped American politics: no other comparable country has such destructive culture wars. Roe left a large chunk of the country feeling disenfranchised by the court; it also established a cycle of attack and counter-attack that has debased everything that it has touched, especially the judiciary.

A prime example is the Roe-obsessed confirmation process for Supreme Court nominees. Samuel Alito, Mr Bush's new candidate, claims that the fact that he once advised the Reagan administration on how to overturn Roe will have no bearing on his behaviour on the court. No less disingenuously, liberal senators pretend they are trying to gauge Mr Alito's legal philosophy when they are trying to catch him out on Roe.

All this is bad for America; but, in political terms, Roe has been particularly disastrous for the Democrats. The Republicans have generally had the better of the abortion wars (something most liberals admit as long as nobody from NARAL Pro-Choice America is in the room). Roe has proved a lightning-rod for conservatives; and many moderates dislike the Democrats'Roe-driven defence of partial-birth abortions. So consider a heretical proposition: why on earth don't Democrats disown Roe?

Merely to mention this in public can be dangerous. Yet there are two obvious reasons for the party to do it. First, abortion rights command broad popular support in the United States, just as they do in Europe. Gallup polling since the mid-1970s has consistently shown that about 80% of Americans want abortion to be legal?either in all circumstances (21-31%) or in some circumstances (51-61%). Without Roe, abortion might be slightly restricted, but certainly not banned, as conservatives want.

Second, Roe is a pretty flimsy decision. The idea that the constitution protects ?the right to privacy? was already something of a stretch when Justice William Douglas discovered it in the Griswold v Connecticut case in 1965. Ruling that the state government could not stop married couples from purchasing contraception, Douglas wrote that the right to privacy exists because the ?specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance.? It was these penumbras and emanations that were stretched still further in 1973 when the court ruled on Roe.

Some Democrats say that they regard ?a woman's right to choose? as analogous to a black person's right to vote?a basic human right that cannot be gainsaid by the electorate. This is far from convincing. The constitution is as clear about the right to vote?thanks to the equal protection clause?as it is murky on the right to abortion. And abortion isn't a clear-cut moral issue in the way that the franchise is. Bill Clinton never felt any need to argue that black voting should be ?safe, legal and rare?.

A better argument in defence of Roe is that some states might well outlaw abortion. The Centre for Reproductive Rights claimed in 2004 that 21 conservative states were highly likely to do so and nine somewhat likely. But this presumes that public opinion has been frozen in aspic since 1973. Laura Vanderkam of USA Today points out that many of these ?anti-Roe? states may well vote in favour of abortion rights: seven have Democratic governors, one (Rhode Island) is firmly in the Democratic column, and many others (Colorado, Ohio) cannot be relied upon to ban it. Moreover, the states that are most likely to vote to ban abortion?such as Mississippi and North Dakota?already have very few abortion clinics in any case: women who want abortions in those states already have to travel huge distances. Crossing state lines would not make that much difference.

Stubborn as a mule

The main reason, alas, why Democrats will stick by Roe is simply because it is a totem in the culture wars. Why should pro-choice forces surrender any ground? That argument makes sense if you want to defend ?choice? right into the ninth month, as some zealots do. But for most Democrats who merely want to keep abortion legal under most circumstances, that right would be more secure if it carried democratic legitimacy.

Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.

History is full of great generals who won their wars by staging strategic retreats. Field-Marshal Kutusov allowed Napoleon to occupy Moscow, tempting him to over-extend himself. The Democrats might emulate that aged Russian's wiliness?and stage a strategic retreat to the high ground of popular opinion.
The Economist
 

Todd33

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Oct 16, 2003
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I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.
 

dullard

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May 21, 2001
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Originally posted by: Todd33
I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.
Me too. The end of Roe vs. Wade would be the end to the republican party as we know it. I bet they get 20% of their votes on that issue alone (from people who would vote otherwise). Eliminate it and most republicans would not be elected.
 

zendari

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May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.
Plenty of them in places like Alabama. Across the country, peoples wishes would be honored. But that really isn't what abortionists want; anything to encourage a society of sexual promiscuity and undermining of families is a plus, not to mention the financing they take from taxpayers, red or blue, for their abortion agenda.
 

EatSpam

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May 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: dullard
Originally posted by: Todd33
I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.
Me too. The end of Roe vs. Wade would be the end to the republican party as we know it. I bet they get 20% of their votes on that issue alone (from people who would vote otherwise). Eliminate it and most republicans would not be elected.

Yeah, let it die.
 

EatSpam

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May 1, 2005
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Stunt
Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.
Plenty of them in places like Alabama. Across the country, peoples wishes would be honored. But that really isn't what abortionists want; anything to encourage a society of sexual promiscuity and undermining of families is a plus, not to mention the financing they take from taxpayers, red or blue, for their abortion agenda.

Actually, I'd like to see abortion, to quote Bill Clinton, safe, legal, and rare. But when you have religious freaky freaks opposing sex ed, opposing birthcontrol and demanding that everyone follow their religion, I have to question how sincere these people are about reducing abortions. I have never even heard one of the Biblical pro-lifers even mention adoption!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Stunt's idea is good in theory, but the US has something that I don't think applies the same way in other countries...states. If Roe v Wade was overturned, the issue would almost certainly be decided by popular support in the states. States like Alabama, as zendari points out, would probably make it totally illegal while states like California would legalize it. This might result in less friction between groups, and would almost certainly cost national Republican candidates votes, but what about friction between states? Alabama can make it illegal, but if one of their neighbor's doesn't, I'll bet there will be a lot of state line crossings for abortions. I doubt Alabama would like that, but why would their neighbors care, it's not their problem? And even beyond that, if states really start moving apart on certain issues, might the national divide become even wider? With gay marriage and abortion being state issues, might the liberal states attract more liberals than even and the conservative states attract more conservatives? Is dividing the nation on state lines like that really a good idea? Think red states vs blue states, but not just in some silly picture that amuses conservatives unfamiliar with the concept of population density.
 

Taggart

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Apr 23, 2001
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Why do liberals care so much about Roe v. Wade? Each state could still choose to allow abortion if it was overturned.

Just go to a blue state if you want an abortion ;)
 

imported_hscorpio

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Sep 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Taggart
Why do liberals care so much about Roe v. Wade? Each state could still choose to allow abortion if it was overturned.

Just go to a blue state if you want an abortion ;)


Or why do conservatives care so much about roe? I hate this issue and how it has come to dominate all political discussions. I just wish it would go away.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: Taggart
Why do liberals care so much about Roe v. Wade? Each state could still choose to allow abortion if it was overturned.

Just go to a blue state if you want an abortion ;)

Well I imagine the liberals living in red states wouldn't be too amused by each state deciding.
 

ntdz

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Aug 5, 2004
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Originally posted by: Todd33
I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.

Apparently you don't care that much about abortion rights if you are willing to give them up...
 

Todd33

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Oct 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Todd33
I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.

Apparently you don't care that much about abortion rights if you are willing to give them up...

I have no immediate plans to have an abortion, thanks. ;)

Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.
 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Stunt
Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.
Plenty of them in places like Alabama. Across the country, peoples wishes would be honored. But that really isn't what abortionists want; anything to encourage a society of sexual promiscuity and undermining of families is a plus, not to mention the financing they take from taxpayers, red or blue, for their abortion agenda.
Hey, let's use your form of argument:

The free market wants abortions, and as you yourself have advocated again and again ad nauseum, the free market is never wrong.

So let's allow abortion clinics to spring up everywhere, and remove all restrictions on abortion. If people want to be sexually promiscuous, the free market should cater to their desires. Passing legislation to ban abortion is just an illigitimate restraint of the free market. Killing unwanted fetuses is just good business!

And if people have a problem with abortion clinics, let those people take their business elsewhere.

I'm sure you'll back me up on this. You are sooooo principled.

 

shira

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Jan 12, 2005
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Originally posted by: zendari
Plenty of them in places like Alabama. Across the country, peoples wishes would be honored. But that really isn't what abortionists want; anything to encourage a society of sexual promiscuity and undermining of families is a plus, not to mention the financing they take from taxpayers, red or blue, for their abortion agenda.
So your "theory" is that abortion doctors (or do you mean by "abortionists" anyone who advocates the continued legaility of abortions?) want ANYTHING that undermines families? Do you really believe this? Is the world really THAT black and white for you?

I advocate unrestricted choice, at least until some point in the second trimester. Is my "motive" the destruction of the family? The advocacy of sexual promiscuity? Or is it possible that I might just believe that a woman should have control over her own body for at least a portion of her pregnancy? Do I have to be "anti-family and "pro-promiscuity" to believe that?
 

Future Shock

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Aug 28, 2005
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Stunt
Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.
Plenty of them in places like Alabama. Across the country, peoples wishes would be honored. But that really isn't what abortionists want; anything to encourage a society of sexual promiscuity and undermining of families is a plus, not to mention the financing they take from taxpayers, red or blue, for their abortion agenda.

It's not about sexual promiscuity. It's about the fact that our bodies are ready, willing and able for sex and marriage in the low teens, but today's society almost requires you to stay in college until 21 at a minimum, and far longer to get a degree that is competitive. If you want to actually be established and have some security before you are married, figure late 20s to early 30s...15 years is a LONG bout of sexual starvation should you preach absinence - just because YOU did it Zenardi doesn't mean that anyone else would willingly do it.

Now to all the Bible thumpers that just want to use women as breeding machines to increase their flocks, that just sounds too bad. But for all of us that want a populace that is educated, equal opportunity, and has some chance of competing in the world economically, we have to acknowlege that young people are going to have sex, usually without marriage, expecially if we want them to become educated members of society. And incidentally, it's the RED states that need more educated people (because so many of them are agricultural states where we have lost hte family farms!) to shore up their competitiveness...THEY should be the ones pushing their children into market-leading science and research educations, things that can be done regardless of geography (witness Research Triangle Park - in the middle of nowhere). Instead they are trying to teach them to get married ASAP so they can have sex morally, and that the world was created in 7 days...that will play well in their economic recovery, yeah right...;)

Future Shock
 

halik

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Oct 10, 2000
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...because all controversial and progressive legislation would be approved by electorate. We'd still have whites-only water fountains if every single social norm shift was to be approved by referendum,
 

Gigantopithecus

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Dec 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: Future Shock


It's not about sexual promiscuity. It's about the fact that our bodies are ready, willing and able for sex and marriage in the low teens, but today's society almost requires you to stay in college until 21 at a minimum, and far longer to get a degree that is competitive. If you want to actually be established and have some security before you are married, figure late 20s to early 30s...15 years is a LONG bout of sexual starvation should you preach absinence - just because YOU did it Zenardi doesn't mean that anyone else would willingly do it.

Now to all the Bible thumpers that just want to use women as breeding machines to increase their flocks, that just sounds too bad. But for all of us that want a populace that is educated, equal opportunity, and has some chance of competing in the world economically, we have to acknowlege that young people are going to have sex, usually without marriage, expecially if we want them to become educated members of society. And incidentally, it's the RED states that need more educated people (because so many of them are agricultural states where we have lost hte family farms!) to shore up their competitiveness...THEY should be the ones pushing their children into market-leading science and research educations, things that can be done regardless of geography (witness Research Triangle Park - in the middle of nowhere). Instead they are trying to teach them to get married ASAP so they can have sex morally, and that the world was created in 7 days...that will play well in their economic recovery, yeah right...;)

Future Shock

:thumbsup:
 

zendari

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May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: shira
So your "theory" is that abortion doctors (or do you mean by "abortionists" anyone who advocates the continued legaility of abortions?) want ANYTHING that undermines families? Do you really believe this? Is the world really THAT black and white for you?

I advocate unrestricted choice, at least until some point in the second trimester. Is my "motive" the destruction of the family? The advocacy of sexual promiscuity? Or is it possible that I might just believe that a woman should have control over her own body for at least a portion of her pregnancy? Do I have to be "anti-family and "pro-promiscuity" to believe that?
Women absolutely have control over thier bodies. You can spread your legs or not spread your legs.

Out of curiousity, why only a portion of the pregnancy?
 

zendari

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May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Future Shock
It's not about sexual promiscuity. It's about the fact that our bodies are ready, willing and able for sex and marriage in the low teens, but today's society almost requires you to stay in college until 21 at a minimum, and far longer to get a degree that is competitive. If you want to actually be established and have some security before you are married, figure late 20s to early 30s...15 years is a LONG bout of sexual starvation should you preach absinence - just because YOU did it Zenardi doesn't mean that anyone else would willingly do it.

Maybe you should take measures other than murder to prevent pregnancy.
 

ntdz

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Aug 5, 2004
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Originally posted by: Todd33
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Todd33
I've said similar things before. Let them overturn it, I'd love to see the impact in red states.

Apparently you don't care that much about abortion rights if you are willing to give them up...

I have no immediate plans to have an abortion, thanks. ;)

Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.

Obviously you won't, but maybe when you get your girlfriend pregnant and you don't want the baby, you might want the right?
 

imported_Condor

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Sep 22, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Interesting point of view; why not let the extreme right rule the country the way they want; or at least say they want. This would envigorate the electorate to stand up for what they really believe. It is my opinion that at heart Americans are mildly socially liberal and may just need a rude awakening as this writer suggests.

Food for thought.

A heretical proposal
Dec 8th 2005
From The Economist print edition
The Democrats (and abortion rights) might be better off if Roe v Wade were overturned


AS A general rule, Republicans are much happier with American exceptionalism than Democrats. Conservatives celebrate the right of every God-fearing American to carry a semi-automatic in his Kyoto-busting SUV while liberals protest that Europe is greener and safer. But when it comes to abortion, it is the Democrats who are the American exceptionalists.

Most rich countries other than the United States have solved the abortion problem by consulting the electorate?either through the legislature or through referendums. This led to vigorous debates and, broadly, the triumph of abortion rights. Because abortion was legalised democratically, pro-lifers accepted the fact that they had lost and abortion became a settled right. By contrast, in America, abortion is a fundamental right of privacy protected by a 1973 Supreme Court judgment?Roe v Wade.

Few objective outsiders?if it is possible to be such a thing on abortion?would argue that relying on judges rather than popular will has helped American politics: no other comparable country has such destructive culture wars. Roe left a large chunk of the country feeling disenfranchised by the court; it also established a cycle of attack and counter-attack that has debased everything that it has touched, especially the judiciary.

A prime example is the Roe-obsessed confirmation process for Supreme Court nominees. Samuel Alito, Mr Bush's new candidate, claims that the fact that he once advised the Reagan administration on how to overturn Roe will have no bearing on his behaviour on the court. No less disingenuously, liberal senators pretend they are trying to gauge Mr Alito's legal philosophy when they are trying to catch him out on Roe.

All this is bad for America; but, in political terms, Roe has been particularly disastrous for the Democrats. The Republicans have generally had the better of the abortion wars (something most liberals admit as long as nobody from NARAL Pro-Choice America is in the room). Roe has proved a lightning-rod for conservatives; and many moderates dislike the Democrats'Roe-driven defence of partial-birth abortions. So consider a heretical proposition: why on earth don't Democrats disown Roe?

Merely to mention this in public can be dangerous. Yet there are two obvious reasons for the party to do it. First, abortion rights command broad popular support in the United States, just as they do in Europe. Gallup polling since the mid-1970s has consistently shown that about 80% of Americans want abortion to be legal?either in all circumstances (21-31%) or in some circumstances (51-61%). Without Roe, abortion might be slightly restricted, but certainly not banned, as conservatives want.

Second, Roe is a pretty flimsy decision. The idea that the constitution protects ?the right to privacy? was already something of a stretch when Justice William Douglas discovered it in the Griswold v Connecticut case in 1965. Ruling that the state government could not stop married couples from purchasing contraception, Douglas wrote that the right to privacy exists because the ?specific guarantees in the Bill of Rights have penumbras, formed by emanations from those guarantees that help give them life and substance.? It was these penumbras and emanations that were stretched still further in 1973 when the court ruled on Roe.

Some Democrats say that they regard ?a woman's right to choose? as analogous to a black person's right to vote?a basic human right that cannot be gainsaid by the electorate. This is far from convincing. The constitution is as clear about the right to vote?thanks to the equal protection clause?as it is murky on the right to abortion. And abortion isn't a clear-cut moral issue in the way that the franchise is. Bill Clinton never felt any need to argue that black voting should be ?safe, legal and rare?.

A better argument in defence of Roe is that some states might well outlaw abortion. The Centre for Reproductive Rights claimed in 2004 that 21 conservative states were highly likely to do so and nine somewhat likely. But this presumes that public opinion has been frozen in aspic since 1973. Laura Vanderkam of USA Today points out that many of these ?anti-Roe? states may well vote in favour of abortion rights: seven have Democratic governors, one (Rhode Island) is firmly in the Democratic column, and many others (Colorado, Ohio) cannot be relied upon to ban it. Moreover, the states that are most likely to vote to ban abortion?such as Mississippi and North Dakota?already have very few abortion clinics in any case: women who want abortions in those states already have to travel huge distances. Crossing state lines would not make that much difference.

Stubborn as a mule

The main reason, alas, why Democrats will stick by Roe is simply because it is a totem in the culture wars. Why should pro-choice forces surrender any ground? That argument makes sense if you want to defend ?choice? right into the ninth month, as some zealots do. But for most Democrats who merely want to keep abortion legal under most circumstances, that right would be more secure if it carried democratic legitimacy.

Embracing the democratic process would send a powerful signal that the Party of the People has rediscovered its faith in the people. Relying on judges to advance the liberal agenda allowed conservatives to seize the mantle of populism. Roe has given Republicans a free ride: they can claim to oppose abortion in the comfortable knowledge that it will never be banned. But imagine if Roe were overturned. How many Republicans would vote for a ban on abortion that only one in five Americans support? The conservative coalition would be split asunder.

History is full of great generals who won their wars by staging strategic retreats. Field-Marshal Kutusov allowed Napoleon to occupy Moscow, tempting him to over-extend himself. The Democrats might emulate that aged Russian's wiliness?and stage a strategic retreat to the high ground of popular opinion.
The Economist

What, you mean let the system function the way it's designed to? Not corrupt the whole thing by handpicking judges to warp the laws to their own beliefs? Sounds good to me.

 

zendari

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May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Todd33
I have no immediate plans to have an abortion, thanks. ;)

Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.

Obviously you won't, but maybe when you get your girlfriend pregnant and you don't want the baby, you might want the right?
He doesn't have the choice remember, thanks to the feminist agenda.
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: Todd33
I have no immediate plans to have an abortion, thanks. ;)

Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war.

Obviously you won't, but maybe when you get your girlfriend pregnant and you don't want the baby, you might want the right?
He doesn't have the choice remember, thanks to the feminist agenda.

And you're suggesting he should?
 

ElFenix

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Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: Future ShockBut for all of us that want a populace that is educated, equal opportunity, and has some chance of competing in the world economically, we have to acknowlege that young people are going to have sex, usually without marriage, expecially if we want them to become educated members of society. And incidentally, it's the RED states that need more educated people (because so many of them are agricultural states where we have lost hte family farms!) to shore up their competitiveness...THEY should be the ones pushing their children into market-leading science and research educations, things that can be done regardless of geography (witness Research Triangle Park - in the middle of nowhere). Instead they are trying to teach them to get married ASAP so they can have sex morally, and that the world was created in 7 days...that will play well in their economic recovery, yeah right...;)

Future Shock

1) the economies in many 'red states' are booming. texas has the best economy in the country at the moment.

2) there is plenty of education going on, problem is that, even with the booming economies, there are still lots of jobs on the east and west coasts, so plenty of young people just out of college are moving out of their home states. it's gotten to be a huge problem for a lot of states.
 

ElFenix

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Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: shira
So your "theory" is that abortion doctors...

I advocate unrestricted choice, at least until some point in the second trimester.

did you know that with the unrestricted choice view abortion can be performed by people other than doctors?