I think it's great. it would put to good use some of armchair generals that frequent P&N.
thankfully, i'm to old
thankfully, i'm to old
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
- 19
- 81
Despite being slavery abolished by the Thirteenth Amendment I think this quote sums it up perfectly and succinctly.
Of all the statist violations of individual rights in a mixed economy, the military draft is the worst. It is an abrogation of rights. It negates man's fundamental right?the right to life?and establishes the fundamental principle of statism: that a man's life belongs to the state, and the state may claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it in battle. Once that principle is accepted, the rest is only a matter of time. -Ayn Rand
Funny how the Mujahideen doesn't need a draft but volunteers in droves much like we would if war was just.
Of all the statist violations of individual rights in a mixed economy, the military draft is the worst. It is an abrogation of rights. It negates man's fundamental right?the right to life?and establishes the fundamental principle of statism: that a man's life belongs to the state, and the state may claim it by compelling him to sacrifice it in battle. Once that principle is accepted, the rest is only a matter of time. -Ayn Rand
Funny how the Mujahideen doesn't need a draft but volunteers in droves much like we would if war was just.
well, conscription was first used during the civil war, and it wasn't for the civil war we still might have slavery. fathom that one
Why? Obviously there is the PC aspect of it, but if you're going to send SOMEONE into harms way, why pick a future rocket scientist over a future burger flipper? Once we've reached the point where we're going to implement the draft, we've already passed any idea of "fair", so why bother making a cosmetic concession that actually leaves society worse off? It's a bad thing already, I'm not sure what we gain from making it that tiny bit "better".
By the way, I'm totally against the draft under any circumstances, but if you're going to grant that the draft is acceptable, I'm not sure why it should be applied "equally".
That seems pretty counter-intuitive. Mandatory service and innate desire to serve seem pretty contradictory to me, and so far as I'm aware there is no proof at all that forcing someone to "serve" will make them have a desire to continue to do so. I think people look at the desire for service in the military and falsely assume that it's because they are in the military that they want to serve. It's really the other way around, and I don't think the idea works in reverse.
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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wow
More often than not, I find myself agreeing with you here at P&N, but this time I'm totally opposite on this point :
Danger of a draft that only sieves the poor/underclasses :
A leadership/upper class that engages in opportunistic wars (eg; Vietnam) for BS reasons, and because of the lack of personal connection to the bloodshed and sacrifice, they don't take the human element into consideration whatsoever. Sort of similar to the lawmakers today, they signed off on this Iraq debacle, but how many of their sons and daughters are boots on the ground for that mission?
I think any war/draft situation should have our politicians on the first wave EVERY time. I'd have liked to see GWB marching up and down the streets of Baghdad, or riding in a crap Humvee across the Sunni triangle. Something tells me he wouldn't really have the balls to do it, considering how he greased his way out of Vietnam, just like that other bozo Clinton.
I also think that counter-arguments about WWII type situations really miss the point. Are we really better off being defended by people who would not sign up for military service, even if the very future of the country was at stake?
Arkaign
Lifer
- Oct 27, 2006
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Sweden has a very professional military with high morale, and they have mandatory service :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_service#Sweden
Yes, but do they have high morale BECAUSE the service is mandatory? Perhaps Swedish culture simply reflects those values fairly well, and without the mandatory service they'd be just as good.
there's more than one way to be helpful, the draft tends to focus people's attention on the fact that it takes real people to defend freedom, not just someone you see on tv.
And, a better question is, why not have a draft ?
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
as does Israel.
Rainsford - I meant that the "fix" would occur after a few generations of mandatory service -- it would eventually be looked at as the next natural step after High School.. for everyone. In other words, kids would know it was coming for the first 18 years of their lives, and they would therefore be mentally prepared for their eventual service.
2 years for women, 3 for men... sounds good to me! And there could be alternatives besides the military itself... peace corps? red cross? FBI? FEMA? who knows...
The draft is fine in times of war. However, I am of a mind that the military we have now is not geared up for a draft. It would take a larger military and more facilities to house them and more trainers to train them, and more units to put them in. New recruits take time to prepare them for combat.
In relation to the military, unwilling troops are not the best answer. We could however use more support troops to cook food, and take care of housing and rear areas that are now taken care of by civilians at a higher rate of pay. Having more military support personnel would actually lower costs. That way if people do not want to fight they can cook or clean or attend to other matters like the motor pool, maintenance, supply, transportation etc.
I also think if we are going to fight a war we should declare war, and give the president full war-time powers and quit playing around. Forces from Iran are killing people in Iraq, so lets show them what it means to get the USA mad and start taking them out! If they want to make war with the USA, lets bring it on full bore, and hold nothing back. Iranians are responsible for thousands of dead civilians in Iraq, and now we need retalitory strikes against Iran.
An Eye for an Eye, and a Tooth for a Tooth.
It is time for thousands of civilians to die in Iran!
In relation to the military, unwilling troops are not the best answer. We could however use more support troops to cook food, and take care of housing and rear areas that are now taken care of by civilians at a higher rate of pay. Having more military support personnel would actually lower costs. That way if people do not want to fight they can cook or clean or attend to other matters like the motor pool, maintenance, supply, transportation etc.
I also think if we are going to fight a war we should declare war, and give the president full war-time powers and quit playing around. Forces from Iran are killing people in Iraq, so lets show them what it means to get the USA mad and start taking them out! If they want to make war with the USA, lets bring it on full bore, and hold nothing back. Iranians are responsible for thousands of dead civilians in Iraq, and now we need retalitory strikes against Iran.
An Eye for an Eye, and a Tooth for a Tooth.
It is time for thousands of civilians to die in Iran!
Well of course it would become natural eventually, but I'm still not convinced you could force high school graduates to really take it seriously any more than you can force them to take high school seriously. We have mandatory education in this country up through 12th grade, and I'm not really convinced we've done a very good job instilling pro-education values in very many people who didn't already have them. Obviously the model is the punk kid who gets squared away by the Marines, but how much of the population does that REALLY apply to?
The Draft is really un-American. Not part of our early traditions at all. First shows up in the Civil War (where it was applied unfairly) and draft riots in New York caused more casualties than the first battle of Bull Run. Not done again til WWII. Where it was applied more fairly and with broad popular support, and under a legitimate Declaration of War. It was continued on after that, but eventually was done away with.
It might actually help stop military adventurism, but it isn't worth it. If you can't maintain troop recruitment levels, you are probably overstepping your bounds anyway. The voluntary military operates as an unsung 'check and balance.' Though it also leads to you lowering your standards in recruitment and training, as we are doing now.
It might actually help stop military adventurism, but it isn't worth it. If you can't maintain troop recruitment levels, you are probably overstepping your bounds anyway. The voluntary military operates as an unsung 'check and balance.' Though it also leads to you lowering your standards in recruitment and training, as we are doing now.
Sorry, I can see how that might have been misinterpreted...but the last sentence is the key there. I DON'T support the draft, the way I suggested or any other way. My point was that if you are going to support the draft, it seems like you should take it to its logical conclusion. If you're willing to concede that the state has a right to force you to fight, you should also be willing to concede that your non-fighting value to the state should also be considered.
Either a human being is an individual or not...once you cross the line where people are just tools of the state, you might as well make sure you're getting the best bang for your buck. If people don't have intrinsic value, then forcing the burger flipper to die in a war is better than forcing a rocket scientist to do the same thing.
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