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The Draft
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PingSpike
Lifer
I think CycloWizard summed up my feelings pretty well. If a war is worthwhile, it usually has massive public support. At those points, many people enlist anyway...and the draft is really an enabler...more like a message to the public: We could use some help.
But, given modern bullsh|t, I think it should be abolished.
But, given modern bullsh|t, I think it should be abolished.
PingSpike
Lifer
Aside from the obvious heavy cost of training all, or many of the countries citizens there are plenty of other flaws in the plan. If our country was constantly under threat of attack, it may very well be a prudent decision...however, that isn't really the case with us.
When you are investing tons of resources into bolstering your military might...you're probably more likely to just use that military to solve problems. I mean...hey, what the hell did you build it for right?
miketheidiot
Lifer
Seeing as I see no purpose to war, I see no reason to have a military draft. I would support a civil service draft or something similar.
A draft is a draft is a draft... it's not why people are drafted, it's the principle. Does the government have a right to your life, to use it as it wishes, in effect saying a person's rights are a gift from the state and that person has to buy them by offering something -his life- in return. That's a concept more appropriate to Nazi Germany, not a country based on freedom and independence.
miketheidiot: You may not see a purpose to war, but luckily others throughout history have... or else you, me, and everyone here would be dumb, enslaved, dying, or dead.
miketheidiot: You may not see a purpose to war, but luckily others throughout history have... or else you, me, and everyone here would be dumb, enslaved, dying, or dead.
It negates man's fundamental right -the right to life- and establishes the fundamental principle of statism: that a man's life belongs to the state, and that the state my claim that life when it wants for whatever purpose it wants.
Civilized lawabiding nations use their military for defense. They do not send forces overseas/abroad in wars of aggression to support imperialist agendas. Even in European countries you can make a "moral judgement" and refuse to serve when your country is attacked. So nations that have the draft do not "claim that life for whatever purpose it wants" but to for the very specific purpose of defending the state from enemies. Soldiers in an army are required to refuse to follow unlawful orders which protects them from doing "whatever" the state wants. The old "I only followed orders" argument does not wash after WWII.
GrGr, the US has provisions where those types of people can keep from getting drafted also. And yeah, there's some things a serviceman doesn't have to do even if ordered. But I'm still not getting your point. Are you saying the draft is OK because of such provisions as these exist?
Grunt, I don't think there will be a draft anytime soon and such talk seems to me like a lot of silly political scare tactics. But the issue here is, is the very idea of a draft right? I've seen some arguments for it, but I'm not convinced. Anybody?
Grunt, I don't think there will be a draft anytime soon and such talk seems to me like a lot of silly political scare tactics. But the issue here is, is the very idea of a draft right? I've seen some arguments for it, but I'm not convinced. Anybody?
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
Yes, it's necessary. No, it shouldn't be abolished. I find it mystifying that anyone would seriously entertain the idea of eliminating the Selective Service. The poll implies that the draft and the Selective Service are effectively interchangeable, which isn't at all the case, however.
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
Again, your poll and original post are unclear. There presently is no draft, so as I see it, by asking about "abolishing" it, you are clearly referring to the Selective Service, which is a necessary beast.
In general I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to having 2 years of mandatory military service for Americans, as is the case in Israel - I think it's good for self-discipline and physical fitness - but I don't strongly advance the idea. The Selective Service is a must, however.
I'm saying to each his own. Many smaller countries benefit from the draft by having a larger part of the population militarily trained should they be needed, than by having a costlier and smaller professional army with the more limited reserve such a system allows. If a small country were to be forced to defend itself the majority of the population (physically capable but without the military training) would be unable to be an effective part of the defense system.
DonVito, are you a lawyer or something? Never mind, you being for mandatory military service... it's the same principle.
If the government forces a man to risk death or maiming in a war declared by the government, for a cause he may neither approve of or understand... if his consent is not required, then in principle, ALL rights are arbitray and removable... and the government is no longer his protector- what else is there left to protect?
How can we say a man has the right to property, but not his life? How can we say that a man has the right to vote, but his life may be snatched at the discretion of the government. No rationalization can change the fact that it represents involuntary servitude. The idea of a draft is archaic, a leftover form of slavery, and has no bearing in a free society.
If the government forces a man to risk death or maiming in a war declared by the government, for a cause he may neither approve of or understand... if his consent is not required, then in principle, ALL rights are arbitray and removable... and the government is no longer his protector- what else is there left to protect?
How can we say a man has the right to property, but not his life? How can we say that a man has the right to vote, but his life may be snatched at the discretion of the government. No rationalization can change the fact that it represents involuntary servitude. The idea of a draft is archaic, a leftover form of slavery, and has no bearing in a free society.
A nation which cannot muster up enough volunteers to defend it is not worth defending.
Very simply: the draft is slavery. You are forced to do something you do not way to do; forced in life-and-death situations; forced away from your family, your job, your friends.
Check out this article from Ron Paul (R-TX). This issue was also brought up in the War of 1812, but the leaders of our young republic knew that conscription was slavery and defeated the British with an all-volunteer military.
Reject Draft Slavery, Oct 5, 2004
Say No to Conscription, May 20, 2002
Very simply: the draft is slavery. You are forced to do something you do not way to do; forced in life-and-death situations; forced away from your family, your job, your friends.
Check out this article from Ron Paul (R-TX). This issue was also brought up in the War of 1812, but the leaders of our young republic knew that conscription was slavery and defeated the British with an all-volunteer military.
Reject Draft Slavery, Oct 5, 2004
Say No to Conscription, May 20, 2002
Good articles.
DonVito appears to believe people do not have a right to their own life, because destroying that fundamental right may help them learn self-discipline and help their physical fitness. I think there are better ways to promote such things without kicking our most basic right and forcing us to go.
DonVito appears to believe people do not have a right to their own life, because destroying that fundamental right may help them learn self-discipline and help their physical fitness. I think there are better ways to promote such things without kicking our most basic right and forcing us to go.
CubicZirconia
Diamond Member
I find it absurd that you have even mentioned this. Regardless of the truth of this statement, not liking someone's attitude is no reason to force them into war.
We already have something for that; it's called college.
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