Right, when a speaker reaches it's maximum travel, more energy just gets converted into heat in the coil, and eventually it overheats and fails. But that's the speaker doing the clipping, not the amp.
Right, when a speaker reaches it's maximum travel, more energy just gets converted into heat in the coil, and eventually it overheats and fails. But that's the speaker doing the clipping, not the amp.
I see your Car Sound "Expert" and raise you an equipment manufacturer....
<edit> or two...
From The PA Bible from Electro-Voice.....
System Gain without the voodoo....
<edit> or two...
From The PA Bible from Electro-Voice.....
Just The facts, Jack!
System Gain without the voodoo....
It is possible to blow speakers with a perfectly matched amp / speaker combination.
If I throw a microphone on the floor, the impact noise could cause speaker failure.
There are different types of speaker failure for different causes.
#1. OverExcursion...
The voice coil literally jumps out of the gap.
#2. Over Heating....
The voice coil is gradually brought to failure by continuous application of full rated power and a material flaw eventually opens the coil.
Usually in an install situation where the speakers do not get turned over and over as in loading after gigs and transporting. Thus the insulator that has melted collects at the bottom. Then at the top, a potential for abrasion occurs, where the insulator has migrated from.
#3. DC..... an amplifier that outputs DC as it fails, usually shorts out the voice coil. Occasionally it will throw it one way or the other and weld it there. This requires a new magnet structure in addition to the recone kit.
Clipping generates harmonics which cause excessive power at those frequencys. This is what causes voice coils to destruct.
Just because it happens all the time doesn't make it an "Urban Myth".
I send recone jobs in all the time from DJ's who clip the output of their mixer into their amps. I have a club install where it is guaranteed to recone 3 / 4 times a year because of morons who think fuzzy sounds good.
After hearing some of the car audio installs out there rattling down the street, I don't think they are a good place to start referencing qualifications.
Originally posted by: chiwawa626
Wheres my buddy shockwave?
thx for the link glen
Sorry, have to sleep sometimes! I'm not like you guys, I cant plug ijnto a wall and be ok.
Anyways, if you disregard the words of Tom or Richard, you really have no business in this thread for the simple fact of this. These guys have ben doing audio longer then some of us have been ALIVE. It would be like argueing science with Einstien. Ya just dont do it! I would (And do) take what they say as truth. They've tested and tried more options and variables then most of us can list. Its there job. Its what they DO.
Anyways, as for the whole clipping thing, this is out of hand really. 3 things blow speakers.
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
1 and 2 9 times out of 10 are directly related and caused by 3. How do we get too much heat or power? Simple, get a REALLY big amp on a speaker! But what about the 500 watt amp on a 700 watt speaker and it blows? We clipped the amp, doubled the output power and pow. Now are sub sees 1000 watts from that amp. The speaker gets to much heat and power, and blows.
I'm sorry, but your "Car Audio Gurus" are mistaken.Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: chiwawa626
Wheres my buddy shockwave
thx for the link glen
Sorry, have to sleep sometimes! I'm not like you guys, I cant plug ijnto a wall and be ok.
Anyways, if you disregard the words of Tom or Richard, you really have no business in this thread for the simple fact of this. These guys have ben doing audio longer then some of us have been ALIVE. It would be like argueing science with Einstien. Ya just dont do it! I would (And do) take what they say as truth. They've tested and tried more options and variables then most of us can list. Its there job. Its what they DO.
Anyways, as for the whole clipping thing, this is out of hand really. 3 things blow speakers.
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
1 and 2 9 times out of 10 are directly related and caused by 3. How do we get too much heat or power? Simple, get a REALLY big amp on a speaker! But what about the 500 watt amp on a 700 watt speaker and it blows? We clipped the amp, doubled the output power and pow. Now are sub sees 1000 watts from that amp. The speaker gets to much heat and power, and blows.
<edit> BTW, I've been doing audio longer than some of you have been alive as well.
When you disregard the laws of Physics, you have no basis to enter a scientific discussion.
I will post more links as I find them all of them by noted audio engineers with Live Sound experience. The same principals apply to a PA system as a Car Stereo. The physics do not change.
Explain why we routinely power speakers with an amp rated 2 to 3 times the rating of the speaker without failure? It's called "headroom", It is explained in the links I've posted. When the gain structure is properly set, the amp will have enough reserve power to handle waveform peaks without clipping, thus sending an excessive power in that band to the device.
You are neglecting the power the amp generates, that is needed by the harmonics made when amplifing a clipped complex wave form.
Distortions truths.....From a REAL Sound Engineer
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- Nov 7, 2001
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You're right AlienCraft. I'm an audio engineer. I engineer large arena and threater installations.
You always want your amp to over power the loudspeakers by at least 20%, anything less may damage the loudspeaker when the operator "gooses" the system. Overhead is the key to the game. If you can make someone crap there pants and you're still at 75% system capacity you've designed a great system.
Cheap audio gear comes with cheap salesmen and cheap marketing. Thankfully these cheap systems are put in cars and not in major arenas.
You always want your amp to over power the loudspeakers by at least 20%, anything less may damage the loudspeaker when the operator "gooses" the system. Overhead is the key to the game. If you can make someone crap there pants and you're still at 75% system capacity you've designed a great system.
Cheap audio gear comes with cheap salesmen and cheap marketing. Thankfully these cheap systems are put in cars and not in major arenas.
Originally posted by: Spac3d
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Spac3d
Originally posted by: NewSc2
the point is that it's car audio
anybody that goes into a vehicle with many objects in the way, off-center listening and much ambient noise to listen to audiophile sound needs to figure out their prioritiesYou obviously have not been into a well balanced and tuned car. I know I listed to a lot more music in my car than I do in my house, it is more important to me to have good sound in my car.
Mark Levinson and Lexus
I wanted my parents to get Mark Levinson in both of the Lexus' they got ... but they don't need that when they listen to mainly AM radio
Oh well, one of the cars lease is up in December ... another shot for Mark Levinson! Who hoo!
THat's not really designed by Mark Levinson, he doesn't even own his own company anymore, I think it's owned by Harmon International, and all the evidence going around points to Harmon just slapping the Levinson name onto it.
Anyways, like it or not, car audio will never be that of home audio for the reasons I stated above. I listen to music a LOT more on my PCDP than my home stereo, and although I still do prefer the sound of real speakers to headphones I try to get the best headphones I can afford. Headphones still > car audio though, as does home audio.
And yes, I have been in well-tuned car systems, and although they do sound very good, there's a huge difference between a closed listening room with mid-fi B&W's and Parasounds compared to the top of the line car audio systems.
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I'm sorry, but your "Car Audio Gurus" are mistaken.Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: chiwawa626
Wheres my buddy shockwave
thx for the link glen
Sorry, have to sleep sometimes! I'm not like you guys, I cant plug ijnto a wall and be ok.
Anyways, if you disregard the words of Tom or Richard, you really have no business in this thread for the simple fact of this. These guys have ben doing audio longer then some of us have been ALIVE. It would be like argueing science with Einstien. Ya just dont do it! I would (And do) take what they say as truth. They've tested and tried more options and variables then most of us can list. Its there job. Its what they DO.
Anyways, as for the whole clipping thing, this is out of hand really. 3 things blow speakers.
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
1 and 2 9 times out of 10 are directly related and caused by 3. How do we get too much heat or power? Simple, get a REALLY big amp on a speaker! But what about the 500 watt amp on a 700 watt speaker and it blows? We clipped the amp, doubled the output power and pow. Now are sub sees 1000 watts from that amp. The speaker gets to much heat and power, and blows.
<edit> BTW, I've been doing audio longer than some of you have been alive as well.
When you disregard the laws of Physics, you have no basis to enter a scientific discussion.
I will post more links as I find them all of them by noted audio engineers with Live Sound experience. The same principals apply to a PA system as a Car Stereo. The physics do not change.
Explain why we routinely power speakers with an amp rated 2 to 3 times the rating of the speaker without failure? It's called "headroom", It is explained in the links I've posted. When the gain structure is properly set, the amp will have enough reserve power to handle waveform peaks without clipping, thus sending an excessive power in that band to the device.
You are neglecting the power the amp generates, that is needed by the harmonics made when amplifing a clipped complex wave form.
Distortions truths.....From a REAL Sound Engineer
Please xplain your laws of physics?! Its SIM-PLE man. You give a speaker too much heat / power, it dies. Not instantly, but it damned sure aint good for it. Headroom *is* a good thing, I wont argue that. It allows your amp to meet the needs you have without clipping.
So, since your such the guru, tell me how a speaker dies. What causes it?
1) Too much power. Your cant throw the VC out of the gap without using power, and to do that you've used too much. A VC doesnt just magically get thrown out of the gap.
2) Too much power dissipitaed in the form of heat.
3) A rare instance, but I wont disagree a amp that suddenly and catastrophically fails cant ruin a speaker.
To qoute your post..
"This amplifier clipping is also a common cause of speaker failure. When clipping occurs, high-level high frequencies are produced which usually overpower tweeters and midrange speakers and result in smoke and no sound! Therefore, you need to be certain that the amplifier you use has enough power to give plenty of reserve over the average needed to give the desired sound pressure level."
Clipping = death of speakers. Not by the distorted saignal itsel,f but due to the extra power introduced through the harmonics. In a subwoofer, geenrally the VC itself will filter the higher harmonics...ie...It doesnt play them, it filters them and they become heat.
For the Guru part, read the Electro-Voice link, or my personal guru, Don Davis' writings. ( Syn-Aud-Con founder)Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I'm sorry, but your "Car Audio Gurus" are mistaken.Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: chiwawa626
Wheres my buddy shockwave
thx for the link glen
Sorry, have to sleep sometimes! I'm not like you guys, I cant plug ijnto a wall and be ok.
Anyways, if you disregard the words of Tom or Richard, you really have no business in this thread for the simple fact of this. These guys have ben doing audio longer then some of us have been ALIVE. It would be like argueing science with Einstien. Ya just dont do it! I would (And do) take what they say as truth. They've tested and tried more options and variables then most of us can list. Its there job. Its what they DO.
Anyways, as for the whole clipping thing, this is out of hand really. 3 things blow speakers.
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
1 and 2 9 times out of 10 are directly related and caused by 3. How do we get too much heat or power? Simple, get a REALLY big amp on a speaker! But what about the 500 watt amp on a 700 watt speaker and it blows? We clipped the amp, doubled the output power and pow. Now are sub sees 1000 watts from that amp. The speaker gets to much heat and power, and blows.
<edit> BTW, I've been doing audio longer than some of you have been alive as well.
When you disregard the laws of Physics, you have no basis to enter a scientific discussion.
I will post more links as I find them all of them by noted audio engineers with Live Sound experience. The same principals apply to a PA system as a Car Stereo. The physics do not change.
Explain why we routinely power speakers with an amp rated 2 to 3 times the rating of the speaker without failure? It's called "headroom", It is explained in the links I've posted. When the gain structure is properly set, the amp will have enough reserve power to handle waveform peaks without clipping, thus sending an excessive power in that band to the device.
You are neglecting the power the amp generates, that is needed by the harmonics made when amplifing a clipped complex wave form.
Distortions truths.....From a REAL Sound Engineer
Please xplain your laws of physics?! Its SIM-PLE man. You give a speaker too much heat / power, it dies. Not instantly, but it damned sure aint good for it. Headroom *is* a good thing, I wont argue that. It allows your amp to meet the needs you have without clipping.
So, since your such the guru, tell me how a speaker dies. What causes it?
For my condensed version, see the reply above ....
#1 too much power or an overdriven low freq signal can cause VC overexcursion.
#2 The harmonics of a squared off wave create an overtemperature condition by making the amp produce full power at freqs that are not musical.
#3 A failing amplifier goes DC and without Capacitor coupling to block the DC component, takes out the voice coil.
I have seen welded voice coils. I recently repaired a HF diaphragm that had a hole burned in the plastic phase plug. This was caused by a QSC amp when the DJ turned off the processor and front end before the amps were switched off. A DC "thump" came through as devices powered down. Took out (2) 15 in LF and (1) HF driver.
#3 isn't as common as it once was, but they still happen. We didn't call Phase Linear amps, "Flame Linears" for nothing.
A real Guru's writings....
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
For the Guru part, read the Electro-Voice link, or my personal guru, Don Davis' writings. ( Syn-Aud-Con founder)Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
I'm sorry, but your "Car Audio Gurus" are mistaken.Originally posted by: Shockwave
Originally posted by: chiwawa626
Wheres my buddy shockwave
thx for the link glen
Sorry, have to sleep sometimes! I'm not like you guys, I cant plug ijnto a wall and be ok.
Anyways, if you disregard the words of Tom or Richard, you really have no business in this thread for the simple fact of this. These guys have ben doing audio longer then some of us have been ALIVE. It would be like argueing science with Einstien. Ya just dont do it! I would (And do) take what they say as truth. They've tested and tried more options and variables then most of us can list. Its there job. Its what they DO.
Anyways, as for the whole clipping thing, this is out of hand really. 3 things blow speakers.
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
1 and 2 9 times out of 10 are directly related and caused by 3. How do we get too much heat or power? Simple, get a REALLY big amp on a speaker! But what about the 500 watt amp on a 700 watt speaker and it blows? We clipped the amp, doubled the output power and pow. Now are sub sees 1000 watts from that amp. The speaker gets to much heat and power, and blows.
<edit> BTW, I've been doing audio longer than some of you have been alive as well.
When you disregard the laws of Physics, you have no basis to enter a scientific discussion.
I will post more links as I find them all of them by noted audio engineers with Live Sound experience. The same principals apply to a PA system as a Car Stereo. The physics do not change.
Explain why we routinely power speakers with an amp rated 2 to 3 times the rating of the speaker without failure? It's called "headroom", It is explained in the links I've posted. When the gain structure is properly set, the amp will have enough reserve power to handle waveform peaks without clipping, thus sending an excessive power in that band to the device.
You are neglecting the power the amp generates, that is needed by the harmonics made when amplifing a clipped complex wave form.
Distortions truths.....From a REAL Sound Engineer
Please xplain your laws of physics?! Its SIM-PLE man. You give a speaker too much heat / power, it dies. Not instantly, but it damned sure aint good for it. Headroom *is* a good thing, I wont argue that. It allows your amp to meet the needs you have without clipping.
So, since your such the guru, tell me how a speaker dies. What causes it?
For my condensed version, see the reply above ....
#1 too much power or an overdriven low freq signal can cause VC overexcursion.
#2 The harmonics of a squared off wave create an overtemperature condition by making the amp produce full power at freqs that are not musical.
#3 A failing amplifier goes DC and without Capacitor coupling to block the DC component, takes out the voice coil.
I have seen welded voice coils. I recently repaired a HF diaphragm that had a hole burned in the plastic phase plug. This was caused by a QSC amp when the DJ turned off the processor and front end before the amps were switched off. A DC "thump" came through as devices powered down. Took out (2) 15 in LF and (1) HF driver.
#3 isn't as common as it once was, but they still happen. We didn't call Phase Linear amps, "Flame Linears" for nothing.
A real Guru's writings....
WTF......
I must be missing something painfully obvious here. You've just said what I have been saying all along. Speakers die either by having too much heat or too much power. Isnt that what your saying? (Barring catastrophic amp failure. It terms of why speakers blow I consider that particular incident very rare)
As I see it, we're agreeing to disagree that we agree....Am I missing something here? To qoute me...
1) Too much heat (Melts the VC's)
2) Too much power (Bangin the top plate and ripping suspension / spider)
3) User error
To qoute you...
#1 too much power or an overdriven low freq signal can cause VC overexcursion.
#2 The harmonics of a squared off wave create an overtemperature condition by making the amp produce full power at freqs that are not musical.
#3 A failing amplifier goes DC and without Capacitor coupling to block the DC component, takes out the voice coil.
I have seen welded voice coils. I recently repaired a HF diaphragm that had a hole burned in the plastic phase plug. This was caused by a QSC amp when the DJ turned off the processor and front end before the amps were switched off. A DC "thump" came through as devices powered down. Took out (2) 15 in LF and (1) HF driver.
My deal is with people using underpowered amps, driving them to clipping and then blowing speakers. So, while the clipping in and of itself doesnt blow the speaker, the extra heat and power introduced by driving the amp beyond its capabilities does.
I'm really confused, but not about what blows speakers....
you both agree that too much power and/or heat to the VC causes the damage, right?
what AlienCraft is asserting is that it is an underpowered amp that causes the clipping, which in turn causes the peak of overpower/heat
that is the info that I have read over and over throughout the years in Audio magazines
sure, there are other ways to overpower/heat the coils, but how often to people buy too large of amps for their systems?
If you travel the country visiting audio repair shops, I would bet the extreme majority of cases of blown speakers would show an underpowered amp. I could be wrong.
what AlienCraft is asserting is that it is an underpowered amp that causes the clipping, which in turn causes the peak of overpower/heat
that is the info that I have read over and over throughout the years in Audio magazines
sure, there are other ways to overpower/heat the coils, but how often to people buy too large of amps for their systems?
If you travel the country visiting audio repair shops, I would bet the extreme majority of cases of blown speakers would show an underpowered amp. I could be wrong.
What I see as our point of contention is that My #2 is Your #3 or you are over simplifing it into #1.
I would assert that an underpowered amp would NOT blow the speakers driving an UNclipped signal. This is more the "normal" operating mode.
So then.... What is causing the destruction?.... Answer ..... Clipping.
And that I agree with as well. There is no such thing (technically) as underpowering speakers, otherwise we wouldnt have volume knobs on our <Insert equipment type>
And I also agree, a clipped signal can blow the speakers, even if the amp itself is rated at less power then what the speakers can handle.
What a long strange way to agree.....
And I also agree, a clipped signal can blow the speakers, even if the amp itself is rated at less power then what the speakers can handle.
What a long strange way to agree.....
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