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The Disappearance of Molly Norris

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Regardless of why the employer cares, it is their right to manage the way you interact with customers.

Christmas symbols were displayed on govt. property but that doesn't mean it was right. Unless they are displaying other religions' symbolism when requested, they are in violation of the constitution.

You can get all mad and childish and insult as you see fit but it still doesn't make you right.

If you don't like the traditions that have already been ESTABLISHED in this country long before you were born and before these immigrants today got all offended, then you can kindly GTFO and let the majority of this country celebrate Christmas the same way they did when they were kids and the way their parents and grand parents did.

Do you think any other country will take down their holiday symbols if you or I moved there? Since you dont mind missing out on your holiday traditions, why don't you do this country a favor and go find out.
 
And unlike so many of the responsibilities assumed by government, ensuring the safety of people like Molly Norris is one of the fundamental reasons we institute governments.

What exactly do you expect the government to do to protect her?

There's only so much practical to do, that doesn't violate other people's rights.

The problem with this sort of thing is that it tends to stir up hate and increase the risk of violence of its own - 'those darn Muslims, I hate them how they deny us our freedoms'.

A free society has a certain amount of danger in it. Most Muslims and most non-Muslims are opposed to violence against Molly.

But there's only so much that can be done. Salman Rushdie had to go into hiding decades ago. There is an issue with some radical Muslims who endanger some people who do this.

We didn't protect the Muslim innocent Americans who were killed after 9/11 by vigilantes, either. We prosecuted their attackers. We were opposed to the violence.

People who are going to commit violence can only be deterred to a point. If the legal punishment for doing so doesn't stop them, they're going to be able to do it.

Of course, not on this issue but on others, we can do better ourselves at taking some responsibility for our country's actions against other people. This week, a terrorist being sentenced explained that in his view, he was only defending his people from us, and that terrorism would continue 'until we left them alone'. Now, whether he's right or wrong, it's notable that that's his mindset, that he's 'just defending' his people by terrorism here, and while we can't totally prevent that opinion, we can do more to not cause it sometimes.
 
My point is, when a lone guy rants about killing Obama online, he is banned from entering the US and yet, an Islamic organization sends death threats to the creators of South Park(Revolution Muslim), Molly Norris and many others.. what is the Govt doing? I know its a sensitive issue but, why can't they take action on those hardlined organizations(based in the US) as they did on that guy.

TMK they did not take any action on Revolution Muslim.

Who in the US has threatened Molly?
 
As a corollary to this thread, may I ask why making a "death threat" is a crime or an offense? Does this not fall under "expression"? I am only asking for opinions, so please do not indulge in ancilliary banters.

It's an exception to free speech not allowed under the law in many cases. Killing Molly would be expression of a political view, too, and is not allowed.
 
Those cities have been displaying Christmas symbols since this country was founded. Some cities have had to take down their displays because some people were offended.

If you cannot see that their freedom to display Christmas symbols has been taken away, then you are a moron. I have seen Christmas trees and manager displays at public places since the 70's...however, in this era of political correctness in recent years, Americans who have been accustomed to this all of their lives will be enjoying these sights less and less because of people who have recently emigrated here and are offended by them...

Why are retail employees TOLD they CANNOT say Merry Christmas and must say Happy Holidays instead? How the fuck does a foreigner find that offensive here?

You should crawl out of your mom's basement more often...

Because unlike you, some people recognize the idea of respecting different people, and that while you like having your religion recognized for everyone by a clerk saying something about it, not everyone appreciates that one religious greeting as much, and it's more equal treatment to use a more generic greeting.

I suspect people with your view would be the first to complain loudly if clerks were greeting everyone with Muslim holiday greetings or atheist greetings and so on.
 
If you don't like the traditions that have already been ESTABLISHED in this country long before you were born and before these immigrants today got all offended, then you can kindly GTFO and let the majority of this country celebrate Christmas the same way they did when they were kids and the way their parents and grand parents did.

Do you think any other country will take down their holiday symbols if you or I moved there? Since you dont mind missing out on your holiday traditions, why don't you do this country a favor and go find out.

Lol U mad.

Christmas doesn't bother me. I celebrate it.

But just because it is a tradition doesn't make it a freedom. You have the freedom to celebrate christmas all you want but you don't have the freedom to force govt. to erect a manger or a private business to celebrate christmas.
 
If you don't like the traditions that have already been ESTABLISHED in this country long before you were born and before these immigrants today got all offended, then you can kindly GTFO and let the majority of this country celebrate Christmas the same way they did when they were kids and the way their parents and grand parents did.

Do you think any other country will take down their holiday symbols if you or I moved there? Since you dont mind missing out on your holiday traditions, why don't you do this country a favor and go find out.

Nice job ignoring his point about it being unconstitutional ...
 
That's like asking why stealing is a crime. Well, making threats is a crime because this society feels it is a criminal act to do so. Expression is not without established limits, and threats are one of those limits.

PokerGuy, I am in complete agreement with your post!

Muslims are also part of the society. The "expression of freedom" where Mohammad (SA) is pictorially represented is hurtful to the sentiments of Muslims. The reasonings for this is a separate discussion.

Muslims argue that this form of expression is or should be beyond established limits.

Why should that argument also be ridiculed or considered to be something morally/ethically/socially unacceptable?

That is what some of the posters are trying to convey, that institutions representing Muslims arguing that such expression be made illegal is against the concept of freedom of expression. This is just a nonsensical viewpoint.
 
If you don't like the traditions that have already been ESTABLISHED in this country long before you were born.

Traditionally, we opened doors for ladies.

Traditionally, we used to own slaves.

Traditionally, the Earth was flat.

Do you think any other country will take down their holiday symbols if you or I moved there?

No. So we should stoop to their level? I guess your mother never replied to your twisted logic with statements like: "If your best friend jumped off a bridge, would you?"
 
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Why should that argument also be ridiculed or considered to be something morally/ethically/socially unacceptable?

"Hurtful to someone's feelings" is not and never has been a valid reason to supersede the freedom of expression. If someone doesn't like it, too bad for them. Threats are not like saying something that might hurt someone's feelings, it's something different altogether, and are therefore a crime in an of themselves, regardless of the reason.

Logic fail. Freedom of expression means you are free to express anything no matter who's feelings it hurts or if anyone likes it or is offended or not, as long as you are not committing any crimes in the process. Threatening someone is a crime.
 
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PokerGuy, I am in complete agreement with your post!

Muslims are also part of the society. The "expression of freedom" where Mohammad (SA) is pictorially represented is hurtful to the sentiments of Muslims. The reasonings for this is a separate discussion.

Muslims argue that this form of expression is or should be beyond established limits.

Why should that argument also be ridiculed or considered to be something morally/ethically/socially unacceptable?

That is what some of the posters are trying to convey, that institutions representing Muslims arguing that such expression be made illegal is against the concept of freedom of expression. This is just a nonsensical viewpoint.

Are you saying that there's nothing wrong with Muslims wanting their religious preference against illustrations of Mohammed to be law?

Of course there is. It is against freedom of expression.

In the early days of our country, we had an issue with this. Our second President enjoyed a law Congress passed that made any speech that was 'degrading' to him a crime.

Many political opponents were put in jail for this. Jefferson, his successor, disagreed and ran on a platform to repeal the law, which he did, and it's stayed mostly repealed since.

Now, to digress, there are still laws on the books that aren't enforced, but once were, making things like speech undermining a war ('it's wrong') a crime. They're wrong.

With Muslims, it's an issue of respect for them as people not to publish drawings of Mohammed, but it's a free speech right to do so.

You can march outside the NAACP offices with signs saying 'go back to africa' and the n word, too, and it's also an issue of respecting the people not to do so.

Really, the only reason to publish images of Mohammed is to antagonize or express hate for Muslims mostly, with one exception, to simply 'exercise' free speech, protest violence.

In other words, there is a point to the 'draw Mohammed' days besides hate - it's to say in the face of people who threaten violence, that that won't be tolerated.

It's an act of courage, of defending free speech, in that one case IMO.

There's a sort of tension - normally, it's best not to do it. But the two sides feed on each other - the more people want to do it, the more extreme and violent some people become in response, and the more violent the opposition, the more people want to oppose the violence by exercising the right.

One thing forgotten in this is why the practice was prohibited by Mohammed in the first place. If that were better understood, it might help. I asked before, no one said they knew.
 
This thread is reminding me of the outrage Christians expressed when a famous singer, Sinead O'Connor, once ripped up a pic of the Pope on national TV back in the early 90s. Frank Sinatra, not a cleric but perhaps more popular, was quoted as saying he wanted to punch her right in the mouth. NBC has completely censored that moment in history. The only way to know of it now is , dare I say, traditional oral history.

Yeah, only Muslims are nuts...
 
Molly needs to hire an international hit squad to take out the cleric issuing the fatwa and advertise that she is doing it.
 
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This thread is reminding me of the outrage Christians expressed when a famous singer, Sinead O'Connor, once ripped up a pic of the Pope on national TV back in the early 90s. Frank Sinatra, not a cleric but perhaps more popular, was quoted as saying he wanted to punch her right in the mouth. NBC has completely censored that moment in history. The only way to know of it now is , dare I say, traditional oral history.

Yeah, only Muslims are nuts...

We're talking about a religious cleric issuing a fatwa to tell followers of their religion to kill a person. This would not be a big deal if the cleric said he wanted to punch Molly out. See my post above.
 
This thread is reminding me of the outrage Christians expressed when a famous singer, Sinead O'Connor, once ripped up a pic of the Pope on national TV back in the early 90s. Frank Sinatra, not a cleric but perhaps more popular, was quoted as saying he wanted to punch her right in the mouth. NBC has completely censored that moment in history. The only way to know of it now is , dare I say, traditional oral history.

Yeah, only Muslims are nuts...

And how many died from the rampaging offended Catholics worldwide from this incident? How many calls for the death of Sinead O'Connor resulted from this incident? I suspect if the worst that emanated from the Draw Mohammed day call by Molly Norris was some muslim expressing a desire punch her in the mouth she would still be in her home cartooning rather than going underground like some kind of mob informant.
 
If you don't like the traditions that have already been ESTABLISHED in this country long before you were born and before these immigrants today got all offended, then you can kindly GTFO and let the majority of this country celebrate Christmas the same way they did when they were kids and the way their parents and grand parents did.

Do you think any other country will take down their holiday symbols if you or I moved there? Since you dont mind missing out on your holiday traditions, why don't you do this country a favor and go find out.

Oh no, our fabricated traditions are shown to be mostly false and made up, but its the foreigners fault that we don't practice them.

I guess this country not being a christian theocracy really upsets you. You should get the fuck out of this country I guess.
 
One murder, 645 documented 'hate crimes/acts' in the week after 9/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balbir_Singh_Sodhi

Craig234 said:
We didn't protect the Muslim innocent Americans who were killed after 9/11 by vigilantes, either.

One documented murder? (For which the murderer was given a death sentence, commuted to life in prison on appeal, btw.)

But your statement intimated that there was some kind of a wave of revenge killings.

I was living in Japan on 9/11 and a year or so thereafter and the news there had no information on any wave of retaliatory killings of Muslims on American soil, so I was curious if that were really the case. Guess not.

645 "documented" "hate" crimes? Are these accusations or convictions?

An accusation or suspicion does not a crime make. A criminal conviction under a "hate" crime statute does.

Were the motives definitely established as separate criminal intent ("hate" crimes are all about motive separate from the actual act) or could it be that all of whatever violence of the following week, in as large and diverse and as violent a country as the US is, was put under a microscope and nothing sensational enough was found?

I am not picking on you here, I just want to understand if in the aftermath of such an absolutely horrific attack against Americans by Islamists, personally experienced by millions in NYC and seen on every television in the country over and over again, if there was actually a substantial violent backlash or merely the anticipatory fear of one that never actually manifested itself.

As I recall, there were all kinds of calls from almost every religious and political leader in the US to not overreact until the situation could be sorted out. At least that was the news on Japanese TV.

I am willing to contrast the reaction of the American population to that of the Islamic world when their own mullahs offered up their own provocative drawings of Muhammad in an attempt to stir up violence.
 
I see. So, two wrongs make a right in your world? Must be nice.



Many.

If you really can't tell the difference between expressing anger and outrage verbally which is perfectly acceptible and rioting in the streets and killing people then it is a waste of time to even bother responding to you. As for the death threats I have no doubt she received some from kooks after that show but nothing that resulted in her having to go into hiding and giving up her occupation. Any celebrity that does anything controversial receives death threats which are generally turned over the the authorities for investigation to see if action is warranted. That is entirely different than what we are talking about here with Molly Norris.
 
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