The difference SM3 makes on a 6600gt

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Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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I hope all you realize that sm3 or sm2 or sm anything only applies to the shaders used in the game. I don't see how it would make any difference if the game was written with sm3 from the ground up or not, because shaders only make up a small part of the whole game engine. In fact, shaders are like separate short programs that run on the gpu, and they are written in a high level language and then compiled into either sm2 or sm3 code. As far as the rest of the game engine is concerned, it doesnt care which shader model is currently running. I've said it multiple times, and yet some people seem to think the whole game is like one huge shader or something. Is this so hard to understand?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,002
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SM 3.0, when doing nothing more than just providing free speed gains rather than extra features is currently far more useful than the likes of soft shadows and HDR, that's for sure.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
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91
Originally posted by: munky
I hope all you realize that sm3 or sm2 or sm anything only applies to the shaders used in the game. I don't see how it would make any difference if the game was written with sm3 from the ground up or not, because shaders only make up a small part of the whole game engine. In fact, shaders are like separate short programs that run on the gpu, and they are written in a high level language and then compiled into either sm2 or sm3 code. As far as the rest of the game engine is concerned, it doesnt care which shader model is currently running. I've said it multiple times, and yet some people seem to think the whole game is like one huge shader or something. Is this so hard to understand?

Isn't shader usage in games increasing regularly? So it may make a difference. May.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,211
50
91
Originally posted by: BFG10K
SM 3.0, when doing nothing more than just providing free speed gains rather than extra features is currently far more useful than the likes of soft shadows and HDR, that's for sure.

I would agree. Free speed gains may extend a cards lifespan. Depends.

 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
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Thanks to those that agree with me (or partly).

Sm3, it was mostly for free speed gains (which no one should be upset about if all the have is SM2...are you just jealous people ;) ), but also added tons of other options because of how it lets you have better performance.

And yes, games are extremely shader heavy. If we didn't have SM3, none of the next gen games we've seen would look as nice as they do (sure, they'd look nice, but they'd be a little too much for the outdated SM2...or soon to be outdated...)

hmmm...what time does FEAR demo come out tomorrow? i wanna play it before i leave for cedar point...and play it in Sm3 :p
Btw, could someone bench like, every card out on sm2 and sm3? that'd be nice for this discussion (a better example than far cry).

Oh, and i forgot to mention that Far cry, SC:CT and FEAR were not made from the ground up with SM3...that's why we're not seeing all it can do, therefor making some think it is pointless (which it is now, but not for next gen, and some people tend to keep cards for more than just a few months...)
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Originally posted by: munky
I hope all you realize that sm3 or sm2 or sm anything only applies to the shaders used in the game. I don't see how it would make any difference if the game was written with sm3 from the ground up or not, because shaders only make up a small part of the whole game engine. In fact, shaders are like separate short programs that run on the gpu, and they are written in a high level language and then compiled into either sm2 or sm3 code. As far as the rest of the game engine is concerned, it doesnt care which shader model is currently running. I've said it multiple times, and yet some people seem to think the whole game is like one huge shader or something. Is this so hard to understand?

Isn't shader usage in games increasing regularly? So it may make a difference. May.

Yes, games are using increasingly more shaders, and the shaders are getting more complex. And, yes, having sm3 ability will let you run sm3 shaders faster than sm2 shaders. BUT, this is only true if you have high quality settings enabled to use all those shaders. When you turn off quality options, you turn off the shaders. In fact, the only game I know that uses shaders on low quality is BF2, that's why it requires sm1.4 or higher. Any other game that will run on a gf4 mx, no matter how slow, is not using any shaders at all, and using the same low quality options on a new card will not make it run shaders either.

That's the point that nobody seems to understand. If the card is not fast enough to run the game at high quality settings, then it's less likely to benefit from sm3, or sm2, or sm anything, because it's simply running less shaders, or none at all.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
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No, games still use shaders at whatever setting you have them at. Usually they become slightly less complex, but it's mostly texture and model changes that happen.

Like, HL2, its mostly just textures and model detail that changes. Most of the shaders are still there and look the same, but some try to fit the low quality texture pattern so that it doesnt look like crappy texture, detailed shader that doesnt fit.

So still, even on lowest settings, SM3 will run faster than Sm2 will. Could someone possibly do FEAR and Far Cry benchies to support or disprove this?
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
0
76
Originally posted by: hans030390
No, games still use shaders at whatever setting you have them at. Usually they become slightly less complex, but it's mostly texture and model changes that happen.

Like, HL2, its mostly just textures and model detail that changes. Most of the shaders are still there and look the same, but some try to fit the low quality texture pattern so that it doesnt look like crappy texture, detailed shader that doesnt fit.

So still, even on lowest settings, SM3 will run faster than Sm2 will. Could someone possibly do FEAR and Far Cry benchies to support or disprove this?

Think about it - if the games used shaders even on low quality settings, then any card that doesnt support shaders, such as the geforce4 mx, will not run the game at all. Last time I checked, the minimum requirement for most games is hardware T&L, which is a DX7-era technology, and does not use shaders. In fact, I still have an old gf2 mx in my p4 1.6 rig (LOL), and I'm gonna install farcry on it and see if it runs at all. I do know for a fact that it ran HL2 on low settings at like 15fps, but it ran the game nevertheless, so no shaders were used at those settings.
 

SonicIce

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2004
4,771
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how do you enable sm 3.0 on low settinsg in farcry? everytime i pick medium or low it always chnages to 1.1 or 2.0 no matter what i do.
 

gac009

Senior member
Jun 10, 2005
403
0
0
^you cant, hans is wrong.
high settings are required to run sm 3.0, if your card cant run newxt gen games in high settings then you shouldnt worry about sm 3.0.
 

hans030390

Diamond Member
Feb 3, 2005
7,326
2
76
Originally posted by: gac009
^you cant, hans is wrong.
high settings are required to run sm 3.0, if your card cant run newxt gen games in high settings then you shouldnt worry about sm 3.0.

I never said you could enable Sm3 in far cry...

I was just talking about shader settings on low graphics guality settings...

jeez.

And munky, yes, you do have a point, BUT I was saying, assuming your card does support shaders, and you are running the game in DX8.1 or 9 or something. Eventually, games will need shaders to play. Such as BF2? (i think, but wasn't there some reason for that...)
And eventually you wont need to have a game on high quality to play SM3.

It's all just a matter of having the newest shader model, regardless of whether the card does well next gen or not. If 6 series doesnt do well, x800 series wont do well either. And at the time of when i bought my card, the 6600gt was the best for the money.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
3,002
126
I'm not sure because I've never really tried it. Like I said, somebody could try it. :p