The delicious irony of banning books.

[yllus]

Britain isn't worthy of Rushdie

Sunday, Oct. 1, 1989 was a typically chilly morning in London. That did not dampen the enthusiasm of thousands of angry British Muslims who were heading toward the Royal Albert Hall to hear a South African orator, Ahmed Deedat, rip into Salman Rushdie for writing The Satanic Verses. Nearly 6,000 men, some bussed in from as far as Birmingham, jammed the hall.

What happened at the start of the event tells us a lot about the Rushdie saga, which it seems, will not die until the man they now call Sir Salman is sent to his death.

The first speaker read a piece from Rushdie's Satanic Verses and asked the audience how many were familiar with that passage or had read the book. Only one person raised his hand. One man out of 6,000! They had come to demand the banning of The Satanic Verses, but had not read the book.

That has been the story of the Rushdie affair for the last 18 years. If Rushdie had intended to defame Islam, his naysayers have helped him do so.

Now he has been given a knighthood by the Queen for his life's work as a writer, and parts of the Islamic world are revisiting the rage from 1989.

Many are familiar with comments by Ijaz ul-Haq, the Religious Affairs Minister of Pakistan, justifying suicide attacks against Rushdie because he had "insulted Islam." But an equally repugnant threat from the Speaker of the legislative assembly of the Pakistani province of Punjab has gone largely unnoticed. The Speaker, Chaudhry Mohammad Afzal Sahi, while presiding over the legislature, said he would kill Salman Rushdie if he came face to face with him.

This is standard and predictable fare. What has changed, however, between 1989 and today is the impact these extremists have had on Britain. In 1989 politicians of all stripes stood up to defend Rushdie; this time the response has been at best cowardly, and at worst an attempt to appease the Islamists.

Members of Britain's Parliament representing large Muslim populations were the first to surrender any sense of dignity or self-respect. The Cabinet minister Jack Straw, still smarting from the reactions to his remarks on the burka, cozied up to his Islamist constituents. He cast doubt on the value of knighting Rushdie, by mocking the author's literary worth. He was quoted as saying, "'I'm afraid I found his books rather difficult and I've never managed to get to the end of any of them.?I'm afraid his writing has defeated me."

A Conservative MP, Stewart Jackson, launched a furious attack on Rushdie, suggesting the knighthood had "threatened anti-terrorism cooperation." Jackson did not disclose the fact that in the last election, he had narrowly defeated the Labour candidate and on the night of his victory had said he had won by "gaining the trust of a large percentage of the city's Muslim population." Jackson, who leads the Friends of Islam group, also questioned the merits of Rushdie's literary worth, saying his books are "rubbish."

Not to be outdone in this clamour to appease the Islamist vote bank, the Liberal-Democrats' Shirley Williams went on BBC's Question Time to condemn the government for honouring the novelist, without a word of protest against the goons issuing the death threats.

In London, Lord Ahmed, Britain's first Muslim peer, said he had been appalled by the award to a man he accused of having "blood on his hands." Not satisfied with his vitriol, Lord Ahmed, who had no hesitation accepting membership of the House of Lords, compared the knighthood of Rushdie to the honouring of the 9/11 terrorists.

One would have expected the British government to haul in the Pakistani and Iranian ambassadors and protest the criminal death threats against a British knight, Sir Salman. But no. The British establishment had neither the integrity nor the resolve to stand up to the bullies. Instead, British ambassadors were hauled in to hear protests by Iranian and Pakistani officials.

It is time that the world recognized that the threat to Salman Rushdie is not just to him, but to all of us. And it is not just the Islamists who need to be condemned, but also the flaccid British response to these would-be murderers. A country that has to apologize and bend over backward to distance itself from the person it seeks to honour, is not worthy of having a knight called Sir Salman. My message to Salman Rushdie is that he should say to the Queen, "Thanks, but no thanks."

Anecdotal hilarity aside, there's something to keep in mind here - sometimes the merely tendency of politicians to kowtow to special interests transcends merely being annoying into something far more sinister and dangerous. There's a great speech that now ex-PM Tony Blair made about not apologizing for our values. Too bad Mr. Straw, Mr. Jackson and Mr. Ahmed weren't listening.

 

[jonks]

Displays one of the fundamental incompatibilities between Eastern and Western cultures. Banning just doesn't work anyway, people who want to get a copy of banned material always do. Further, banning something accords it "forbidden" status, making it interesting to those who would normally not have any interest in it at all. It's basically an endorsement.

I believe in letting people say or print whatever they want. The best way to combat ideas you find proposterous is to hold them up to ridicule, not to hide them away.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
I believe in letting people say or print whatever they want. The best way to combat ideas you find proposterous is to hold them up to ridicule, not to hide them away.

exactly. but on the other hand, western "multiculturalists" have been criminal in their condemnation of holding islamist ideas up for criticism and ridicule.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: sirjonk
I believe in letting people say or print whatever they want. The best way to combat ideas you find proposterous is to hold them up to ridicule, not to hide them away.</end quote></div>

exactly. but on the other hand, western "multiculturalists" have been criminal in their condemnation of holding islamist ideas up for criticism and ridicule.

Well, if I think I understand what you are referring to, it's when "multiculturalists" (that's too long, so I'll say MC from here on) object to denunciations of Islamic beliefs in general as a causative factor in terrorism. I think these MCs have a right to condemn what they see as knee-jerk overgeneralizations of all worldwide Muslims. But I also think that if you asked, the majority of MCs would not be in favor of any sort of censorship restricting a person from espousing their personal belief that Islam causes terrorism. They just vehemently deny that premise.

As far as that argument goes, I also would condemn someone who stands up and says that the religion over one billion people in the world practice is the cause of the actions of a relatively low number of extremists. I feel that such an argument only derides the overwhelming majority of peaceful followers of the faith. And it's not like Western religions have a 2000 year old history of pacifism. And while religion may play a contributing role, I think the socioeconomic and political factors play a larger role in the shaping of extremism.

Of course, I'm an atheist, so I think 9/10ths of the world is nuts anyway But I would never support preventing someone from practicing their faith.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Well, if I think I understand what you are referring to, it's when "multiculturalists" (that's too long, so I'll say MC from here on) object to denunciations of Islamic beliefs in general as a causative factor in terrorism. I think these MCs have a right to condemn what they see as knee-jerk overgeneralizations of all worldwide Muslims. But I also think that if you asked, the majority of MCs would not be in favor of any sort of censorship restricting a person from espousing their personal belief that Islam causes terrorism. They just vehemently deny that premise.

As far as that argument goes, I also would condemn someone who stands up and says that the religion over one billion people in the world practice is the cause of the actions of a relatively low number of extremists. I feel that such an argument only derides the overwhelming majority of peaceful followers of the faith. And it's not like Western religions have a 2000 year old history of pacifism. And while religion may play a contributing role, I think the socioeconomic and political factors play a larger role in the shaping of extremism.

Of course, I'm an atheist, so I think 9/10ths of the world is nuts anyway But I would never support preventing someone from practicing their faith.

the current mc trend is to condemn any criticism of islam as "islamophobia", which is their ignorant term for confusing criticism of islam with criticism of political islam.

the mc's are inbred with the idea of "respect' for other cultures (except their own), such that it prevents them from making critical assessments of islam, especially its connection to political islam. Their ignorance in turn leads to absurd concepts such as islamophobia to criticize crucial rethinking of the standard pc view of islam (which the mc's created themselves to begin with).

given the current geopolitical situation, using mc/pc reasons to suppress critical assessment of islam and its link to political islamism is basically criminal.

 

[Vic]

That's the way it always is. I recall being in an Honors reading class in the 6th grade, and one of the parents from our church was meeting with my parents because they disapproved of the reading material. I brought out the book and asked if they had ever read it. An uncomfortable silence.... followed by a "get to your room."

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Well, if I think I understand what you are referring to, it's when "multiculturalists" (that's too long, so I'll say MC from here on)...

:music: And to you sucker MC, you know it ain't right
Bet you bite all your life, cheat on your wife
Run in a gun fight with nuthin but a knife :music:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: sirjonk
Well, if I think I understand what you are referring to, it's when "multiculturalists" (that's too long, so I'll say MC from here on) object to denunciations of Islamic beliefs in general as a causative factor in terrorism. I think these MCs have a right to condemn what they see as knee-jerk overgeneralizations of all worldwide Muslims. But I also think that if you asked, the majority of MCs would not be in favor of any sort of censorship restricting a person from espousing their personal belief that Islam causes terrorism. They just vehemently deny that premise.

As far as that argument goes, I also would condemn someone who stands up and says that the religion over one billion people in the world practice is the cause of the actions of a relatively low number of extremists. I feel that such an argument only derides the overwhelming majority of peaceful followers of the faith. And it's not like Western religions have a 2000 year old history of pacifism. And while religion may play a contributing role, I think the socioeconomic and political factors play a larger role in the shaping of extremism.

Of course, I'm an atheist, so I think 9/10ths of the world is nuts anyway But I would never support preventing someone from practicing their faith.</end quote></div>

the current mc trend is to condemn any criticism of islam as "islamophobia", which is their ignorant term for confusing criticism of islam with criticism of political islam.

the mc's are inbred with the idea of "respect' for other cultures (except their own), such that it prevents them from making critical assessments of islam, especially its connection to political islam. Their ignorance in turn leads to absurd concepts such as islamophobia to criticize crucial rethinking of the standard pc view of islam (which the mc's created themselves to begin with).

given the current geopolitical situation, using mc/pc reasons to suppress critical assessment of islam and its link to political islamism is basically criminal.

Of course it's Islamophobia...what else would you call it when "critical assessment of Islam" consists mainly of focusing on the small number of extremists and ignoring the vast majority who are just going about their lives like everyone else? In any other field, if your job was to "critically assess" something and that is what you did, you'd be fired on the spot. You guys are being stupid, stop getting upset when people call you on it.

 

[Moonbeam]

I never met an Islamaphobe who wasn't intimately familiar with the Quran.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: sirjonk
I believe in letting people say or print whatever they want. The best way to combat ideas you find proposterous is to hold them up to ridicule, not to hide them away.</end quote></div>

exactly. but on the other hand, western "multiculturalists" have been criminal in their condemnation of holding islamist ideas up for criticism and ridicule.

Just because your islamophobia can't stand up to the ridicule the idea rightfully deserves doesn't mean their is anything wrong with ridiculing your ideas.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Vic
That's the way it always is. I recall being in an Honors reading class in the 6th grade, and one of the parents from our church was meeting with my parents because they disapproved of the reading material. I brought out the book and asked if they had ever read it. An uncomfortable silence.... followed by a "get to your room."

Vic is on the mark right here. In my Chinese class (nonbackground) we learned the text we used was not in use anymore in the Native speaker track because too many parents complained about the words being too racy even though they (quite short and easy for the parents no doubt!) didn't read the content before immediately coming to the conclusion that the text was promoting concepts such as drugs, abortion, pornography to their "Christian Children".

This retarded concept about "incompatabilities" between eastern and western cultures is just pure bunk

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Of course it's Islamophobia...what else would you call it when "critical assessment of Islam" consists mainly of focusing on the small number of extremists and ignoring the vast majority who are just going about their lives like everyone else? In any other field, if your job was to "critically assess" something and that is what you did, you'd be fired on the spot. You guys are being stupid, stop getting upset when people call you on it.

you're a fool. criticism of islam as a religion is completely different from discrimination against the people who practice the religion. i cant even be bothered talking about the terrorists themselves; islam as dictated by their koran is such a wretched religion, it demands thorough criticism. i recommend ibn warraq's book on his departure from islam, for which he has received multiple death threats. it is an excellent critical assessment of the religion by a former practitioner.

islamic supremacists consider criticism of their religion to be sacrilegious and use "islamophobia" to condemn it; western multiculturalists are too ignorant to see the difference and lend their hand to help the islamists have their way. you are one of those ignorants.

 

[magomago]

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I never met an Islamaphobe who wasn't intimately familiar with the Quran. </end quote></div>

I love you moonbeam

edit:

might I add, for the people I've met who actually are very familiar with any specific religious text and are not an adherent - they were never a "-phobe" of it at all. Whether it be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jew, Sikh, Atheist who knew quite a bit about Christianity, Islam, Buddishm, Judaism, (Atheism?) they may disagree with it or have their reservations, but they always respected it and appreciated any of the over reaching messages these texts convey.

So if I find someone outright bashing any religion with Malice...I wonder how much they really know~

edit:

WTF is up with these quotes?!@?!

 

[imported_Shivetya]

you do realize that many of them, if not all, are not allowed to read that book.

they are simply following the wishes of their clerics who by their religion who these followers will do without question. If they say, "do not read this book and go out and rid the world of this blasphemy", why should you expect the adernt followers to read the damn thing?

 

[StageLeft]

the mc's are inbred with the idea of "respect' for other cultures (except their own), such that it prevents them from making critical assessments of islam, especially its connection to political islam. Their ignorance in turn leads to absurd concepts such as islamophobia to criticize crucial rethinking of the standard pc view of islam (which the mc's created themselves to begin with).

You are right. I think we have enough evidence now that a society's adhereance to islam is inversely proportional to general concepts of success. If we're honest about it, hardcore muslims do things that most of us consider asinine or absurd. That's fine if they want to do this in Saudi, but when they come over to our countries with views they learned in their's, and left theirs for some reason but want to then bring those views over here, I find that despicable.

IMO, if you move to a country, you should be more inclined to assimilate than try and shape it in the way of way of the place you left.

Whether it's whining about a book or forcing a state to allow you to get a driver's license with your face covered, these all take advantage of PC guilt; the minority exerts itself on the masses and the masses suck it up like a stupid lap dog.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Rainsford
Of course it's Islamophobia...what else would you call it when "critical assessment of Islam" consists mainly of focusing on the small number of extremists and ignoring the vast majority who are just going about their lives like everyone else? In any other field, if your job was to "critically assess" something and that is what you did, you'd be fired on the spot. You guys are being stupid, stop getting upset when people call you on it.</end quote></div>

you're a fool. criticism of islam as a religion is completely different from discrimination against the people who practice the religion. i cant even be bothered talking about the terrorists themselves; islam as dictated by their koran is such a wretched religion, it demands thorough criticism. i recommend ibn warraq's book on his departure from islam, for which he has received multiple death threats. it is an excellent critical assessment of the religion by a former practitioner.

islamic supremacists consider criticism of their religion to be sacrilegious and use "islamophobia" to condemn it; western multiculturalists are too ignorant to see the difference and lend their hand to help the islamists have their way. you are one of those ignorants.

That's silly, you can't separate criticism of beliefs and criticism of an individual. For most people, Muslim or otherwise, their religion is a big part of who they are...saying that their religion is "wretched" implies the same about the individuals who practice it. And in any case, you're missing the bigger problem...Islam as dictated by the Koran is hardly unique among world religions, have you actually ever read the Bible? Yet you reserve you hatred for Islam alone, and despise the people who practice it and the people who defend the moderate Muslims.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>the mc's are inbred with the idea of "respect' for other cultures (except their own), such that it prevents them from making critical assessments of islam, especially its connection to political islam. Their ignorance in turn leads to absurd concepts such as islamophobia to criticize crucial rethinking of the standard pc view of islam (which the mc's created themselves to begin with).
</end quote></div>You are right. I think we have enough evidence now that a society's adhereance to islam is inversely proportional to general concepts of success. If we're honest about it, hardcore muslims do things that most of us consider asinine or absurd. That's fine if they want to do this in Saudi, but when they come over to our countries with views they learned in their's, and left theirs for some reason but want to then bring those views over here, I find that despicable.

IMO, if you move to a country, you should be more inclined to assimilate than try and shape it in the way of way of the place you left.

Whether it's whining about a book or forcing a state to allow you to get a driver's license with your face covered, these all take advantage of PC guilt; the minority exerts itself on the masses and the masses suck it up like a stupid lap dog.

So we were just kidding about that whole "freedom" thing? I realize that not everyone likes this idea on principle, but most western countries now have embraced the idea that you should be allowed to do what you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do the same. I may not agree with the religious beliefs of the more "hardcore" Muslims (the non-violent ones at any rate), but as Thomas Jefferson put it, it neither robs me nor breaks my leg if they believe whatever the hell they want. There is nothing about a democracy that says that the majority has a right to live in a society free from things it disagrees with. In fact, I'd say that's pretty much the opposite of what we should be going for, and oddly enough, far more reminiscent of Saudi Arabia than America.

But what I find truly amazing is that the basic ideas that founded many of our countries, or hastened their conversion to democracy, are the same ones that are now "PC guilt". You want to know who the stupid lap dogs are? It's you guys, who in fact are "the masses" in this particular story...your willing to replace freedom with the principle that every mainstream idiot has to approve of everyones' behavior.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: SkoorbYou are right. I think we have enough evidence now that a society's adhereance to Religion is inversely proportional to general concepts of success. If we're honest about it, hardcore Religion do things that most of us consider asinine or absurd. That's fine if they want to do this in Saudi, but when they come over to our countries with views they learned in their's, and left theirs for some reason but want to then bring those views over here, I find that despicable..

Fixed it. Hardcore any religion is bad as the word usually means intolerant. There are many Christians who do the very same, a recent example is the woman here in my state of Georgia who wanted the libraries to remove Harry Potter books, which she never read.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Oh, on a side note, Great Britian needs to relinquish the word Great. After acaving to Iran's over their capture of a group of British soliders and this they no longer warrant the word.

Seems the wussification of Europe is occuring out of political correctness

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Shivetya
Oh, on a side note, Great Britian needs to relinquish the word Great. After acaving to Iran's over their capture of a group of British soliders and this they no longer warrant the word.

Seems the wussification of Europe is occuring out of political correctness

I know political correctness is the big bad boogeyman, but what does the issue between Iran and England have to do with being PC or not? I might agree that it was a surprising bout of wussiness on England's part, but as recent events have shown, non-PC folks are equally capable of being impressively huge wusses.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: dmens
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Rainsford
Of course it's Islamophobia...what else would you call it when "critical assessment of Islam" consists mainly of focusing on the small number of extremists and ignoring the vast majority who are just going about their lives like everyone else? In any other field, if your job was to "critically assess" something and that is what you did, you'd be fired on the spot. You guys are being stupid, stop getting upset when people call you on it.</end quote></div>

you're a fool. criticism of islam as a religion is completely different from discrimination against the people who practice the religion. i cant even be bothered talking about the terrorists themselves; islam as dictated by their koran is such a wretched religion, it demands thorough criticism. i recommend ibn warraq's book on his departure from islam, for which he has received multiple death threats. it is an excellent critical assessment of the religion by a former practitioner.

islamic supremacists consider criticism of their religion to be sacrilegious and use "islamophobia" to condemn it; western multiculturalists are too ignorant to see the difference and lend their hand to help the islamists have their way. you are one of those ignorants.

And the bible is filled with sunshine and roses.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
So we were just kidding about that whole "freedom" thing? I realize that not everyone likes this idea on principle, but most western countries now have embraced the idea that you should be allowed to do what you want as long as you don't interfere with someone else's right to do the same. I may not agree with the religious beliefs of the more "hardcore" Muslims (the non-violent ones at any rate), but as Thomas Jefferson put it, it neither robs me nor breaks my leg if they believe whatever the hell they want. There is nothing about a democracy that says that the majority has a right to live in a society free from things it disagrees with. In fact, I'd say that's pretty much the opposite of what we should be going for, and oddly enough, far more reminiscent of Saudi Arabia than America.

But what I find truly amazing is that the basic ideas that founded many of our countries, or hastened their conversion to democracy, are the same ones that are now "PC guilt". You want to know who the stupid lap dogs are? It's you guys, who in fact are "the masses" in this particular story...your willing to replace freedom with the principle that every mainstream idiot has to approve of everyones' behavior.

I think you've been using your jump to conclusions mat and filling my mouth with words I did not say

The minority can do what it wants as long as it doesn't bother the majority or anybody else.

We cannot and should not ban Islam, I was merely pointing out that societies heavily indoctrinated with it are failures.

On a more practical matter, I brought up the woman who was allowed to have a veiled picture on her license, which usurps what all common sense says the point of a picture is. So as not to offend or seem racist or God knows what, somebody felt they could cater to her pathetic whim and she actually got her way, amazing!

Fixed it. Hardcore any religion is bad as the word usually means intolerant. There are many Christians who do the very same, a recent example is the woman here in my state of Georgia who wanted the libraries to remove Harry Potter books, which she never read.

Nonetheless, countries that call themselves Christian are, by any token, superior to those that call themselves Muslim. The west is allied with Christianity, even if most of its countries' so-called Christians do absolutely nothing to practice their religion.

And the bible is filled with sunshine and roses.

We both know you've read neither the New Testament nor the Koran, but yes comparitively it is filled with sunshine and roses. Jesus preached peace, forgiveness, love, etc. Muhammad preached violence, thuggery, intolerance, so we must not be surprised that those who call themselves hardcore Muslims do, quite accurately in interpretation, feel that going on a murderous rampage is what Muhammad would like, because in fact it's what he did himself.

 

[Moonbeam]

The True Meaning of Islam by M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen


I seek refuge in Allah from the evils of the accursed satan.
In the name of Allah, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.
In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise be for God alone. May we give the entire responsibility for our lives to that one God who is limitless grace and incomparable love. May the peace of God and all His blessings fill the lives of all who may read this message.

To all who say they believe in God, please realize with your faith that God hears every word you say. God hears your every thought. Realizing this, speak only what is truth and act only with God's qualities of love, compassion, justice, patience, and the realization that each life is as important as your own. This is the true message within the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not cause divisions among God's children. It exists to bring about brotherhood and unity. The Qur'an soothes those who weep in sorrow and gives comfort to those who suffer. To those who may be poor, it explains the bounteous wealth of God. It inspires faith in those who may not have believed in God and helps them reach a state of reverence for God.

Do not wave the words of the Qur'an as though they were a banner you were going to carry into battle. Do not say, "The Qur'an says this and the Qur'an says that," without truly understanding the inner wisdom of God's qualities within your own life. If one has faith, certitude, and determination, he will see the seed of that purity that is Islam within everything. He will see the power of Allah in every creation. Therefore, he will not discriminate against another creation or discard him.

Anyone who has the purity of Islam and that true faith, certitude, and determination within his heart cannot hurt the heart of another in any manner. Instead, he will have the patience of God in dealing with others; he will use his gratitude to God as the strength with which to comfort others; his praise for God will be the wealth he will share with others; and his total trust in God will be his own wealth, contentment, and security. He will consider anything that does not exist as the quality of God (known in Islam as Allah's ninety-nine names or powers) as forbidden, or evil. Only that which exists within those divine qualities is permissible, or good. These attributes of the grace of God are the law of the Qur'an. These divine attributes are the law within the heart of one who has true faith, certitude, and determination and is truly Islam. The capture of other lives and attacks against other countries are not the law.

Muhammad, the Messenger of God, did not keep anything other than God. From the time of his appearance until the time he departed, the only wealth the Messenger of God displayed and the only power he showed was the wealth and the power of God's qualities of compassion and grace.

Children of any religion who have true faith must realize that God is the only One who knows all of everything. Therefore, only God can judge whether a person has faith, certitude, and determination or not and whether a person lives with that purity that can be called Islam or not. No one else can give that judgment. Do not wave your religion like a banner and go out to capture others. Only one kind of war is permissible in the eyes of God: the war you wage within yourself to defeat the demonic forces of lust, anger, jealousy, desire for revenge, and other evil feelings and attributes that may exist within your heart. God has sent each of the prophets as witnesses to the grace of God and as supports to help us in this inner war. This is the reason for the Qur'an. It is to help the true Muslim fight this inner battle and win victory over his own base desire's that God sent the Messenger with the Qur'an.

We must use the wisdom contained within the Qur'an to spank our own naughty minds and defeat our own compulsive desires. If we do that, what is called Islam will taste like honey. What we do now by battling in the world and calling it Islam tastes bitter and covers the light of the Qur'an in darkness. The light of Islam should reveal the essence of God in every life. If we see that essence, then we will live in unity; we will eat from the same plate; we will live as one family whether some are in a church, some are in a mosque, or some are in their homes. The beggar and the king will be able to pray together. We will discover our own faults, discard our own anger, and embrace one another with love. That is what the Qur'an says. That is why we cannot tell lies, indulge in treachery, or threaten to kill other lives and claim that it is being done in the name of Islam.

Islam teaches that we must recognize and praise the essence of God as it exists in each and every life. Consider this explanation of the truth that is in the Qur'an: If you take a tiny atom and split it into ten million particles and take one of these particles and examine it with that true wisdom found within Islam, you will see within that tiny particle ninety-nine particles revolving around one another without touching. (The ninety-nine are those qualities of God's grace that are known as the names, or powers, of God.) If you take one of those ninety-nine particles and split it into five million particles and examine one of those pieces with that wisdom, again you will see ninety-nine-ninety-nine revolving around one another without touching. And if you take any one of those particles and split it into one million pieces and examine one piece, again you will see the ninety-nine particles revolving around one another. If you take one of those and split it into five hundred thousand pieces and take one of those particles and split it into two hundred and fifty thousand pieces and take one of those and split it into one hundred thousand pieces and then one of those into ten thousand pieces and one of those into another thousand pieces and if you take one of those infinitesimal particles and look within it with that wisdom, you will see ninety-nine: His ninety-nine divine powers.

Every particle of every atom contains the power of Allah, the divine power of God. We who are Islam must realize this. If we reflect on this, anyone who calls himself Islam will never harm anyone. He will not wreak revenge. He will not be treacherous toward anyone. Islam must realize this. Everyone who has faith in God must realize this.

All children of God, leave behind all lustful desires and come to the plenitude of firm faith in God. Give up anger and come to the house of patience. Give up the tendency toward vengeance and treachery and come into the house of contentment with God's wealth of grace. Give up the hell caused by your attachment to the world and come into the love of God that is His grace.

Only when you incorporate His ninety-nine compassionate powers as the basis for your actions and as the law for your life can you discover even one atom-one tiny particle-of God's mercy and compassion. In the name of God, the Most Merciful and Most Compassionate. May all praise and praising be to God alone, and may we have His peace in our hearts. Amen.

 

[Atheus]

<begin quote>Originally posted by: Shivetya
Oh, on a side note, Great Britian needs to relinquish the word Great. After acaving to Iran's over their capture of a group of British soliders and this they no longer warrant the word.</end quote>

Not this again - what should we have done? Gone in and got them, thereby starting a war? I agree their conduct on TVU was not dignified, but then again, most of them were *not* soldiers at all but low ranking sailors with no combat experience.

I also remind you we have responded very harshly to the Iranians before, but only when it's the right thing to do, not just becuase it would make us look tough. See 'Iranian embassy siege' 1980.

<begin quote>Seems the wussification of Europe is occuring out of political correctness</end quote>

What?

/edit - quotes don't work

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
That's silly, you can't separate criticism of beliefs and criticism of an individual. For most people, Muslim or otherwise, their religion is a big part of who they are...saying that their religion is "wretched" implies the same about the individuals who practice it. And in any case, you're missing the bigger problem...Islam as dictated by the Koran is hardly unique among world religions, have you actually ever read the Bible? Yet you reserve you hatred for Islam alone, and despise the people who practice it and the people who defend the moderate Muslims.

the supposed definition of islamophobia is prejudice and/or discrimination against muslims, but criticism of their system of beliefs in no way implies any such thing. it was their choice to revolve their lives around the religion, so how does that make the islamic beliefs so sacred they cannot be criticized? many of the tenets espoused in the koran are completely wretched, there is no doubt about it. it is up to the muslims themselves to decide what to make of it.

christianity is dictated by the bible? you obviously have no clue. the koran is considered by all muslims to be direct revelations from allah to mohammed, whereas most christians see the bible as a collection of moral stories. hence, the koran gives divine obligation to all kinds of atrocious behavior, whereas the bible does no such thing.

enough with your personal attacks. you simply assume i hate muslims because i find the islamic system of beliefs to be barbaric and tribal, and give everyone else a free pass. that's ridiculous. monotheists, christians included, have been responsible for many of history's greatest crimes. but zooming in on this day and age, using age-old christian atrocities to deflect and suppress criticism of islam is totally dishonest.