The debate over these cartoons of Muhammad is ridiculous.

[DaFinn]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
You haven't explained why so many muslims are acting violently in response to this single cartoon ? we don't see such phenomena in other religions


P.S. for anyone that missed the cartoons here it is again

http://www.pixelsboard.com/free/SIGAL/cartoon1.jpg

Violence happens anywhere anytime, Muslims are no exception to the rule, they just happen to be in a different political situation than any other people.

Really, why is it that when a minority of any other relegion commits an ugly / violent act only they are called violent, when a Muslim minority commits a violent act, it's all Muslims around the world that are violent, I am pretty sure that if 1.2 billion Muslims are as evil as those who are commiting the violent acts, wouldn't have had time to sit down here and answer to some of the idiotic members we have here.

If in the muslims view a single newspaper is representative of a country, then in my view several muslim governments are representative of the muslim world.

The problem is, muslim governements want Denmark to apologize, which it cannot do! Not for a newspaper, and not because of what it did is not wrong in Denmark. (Bad judgement maybe...) Now they are only adding fuel to the flames, demanding apology from Denmark, and saying its not doing enough??? Doing enough WHAT???

What the muslims (yes, MUSLIMS) are doing is in no way acceptable. And do they not understand, that those who will be most hurt by all this are the muslims?

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: DaFinn

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
You haven't explained why so many muslims are acting violently in response to this single cartoon ? we don't see such phenomena in other religions


P.S. for anyone that missed the cartoons here it is again

http://www.pixelsboard.com/free/SIGAL/cartoon1.jpg

Violence happens anywhere anytime, Muslims are no exception to the rule, they just happen to be in a different political situation than any other people.

Really, why is it that when a minority of any other relegion commits an ugly / violent act only they are called violent, when a Muslim minority commits a violent act, it's all Muslims around the world that are violent, I am pretty sure that if 1.2 billion Muslims are as evil as those who are commiting the violent acts, wouldn't have had time to sit down here and answer to some of the idiotic members we have here.

If in the muslims view a single newspaper is representative of a country, then in my view several muslim governments are representative of the muslim world.

The problem is, muslim governements want Denmark to apologize, which it cannot do! Not for a newspaper, and not because of what it did is not wrong in Denmark. (Bad judgement maybe...) Now they are only adding fuel to the flames, demanding apology from Denmark, and saying its not doing enough??? Doing enough WHAT???

What the muslims (yes, MUSLIMS) are doing is in no way acceptable. And do they not understand, that those who will be most hurt by all this are the muslims?

Your post represents exactly what my opinion is in reality, but I didn't get the "(yes, MUSLIMS)" part, are you emphasizing on it to mean that yes all Muslims or did I misinterpret your point there ?

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
This is all a misunderstanding of words.

Linux, when most people here say "Muslims" in regarding to the Muslims who are attacking the embassies and such, they are speaking about those guys and the many people in the Middle East who support them. We are not saying that all the Muslims in Indonesia (which I believe is the majority of the global Islamic population?), or all the Muslims in America are violent. Please try to understand that before putting words into people's mouths.

On another note, wouldn't it be nice and relieving to have a louder voice of Muslims condemning all these terrible things done in the name of their Lord, and their Savior. It would certainly help people divide "American and Indonesian" Muslims from the Arab variety.

Doh! And I thought you were making progress in understanding the situation, you don't move from generalizing Muslims to generalizing Arabic-Muslims and think that it is a logical opinion , I am an Arabic-Muslim, why am I not violent I was born and raised in the ME and have only been in the states since 6 years, extremists as well as non-extremits are very well spread outside the Arab world, deep inside the west, and outside the west, the main reason why you see a huge manifestation of this extremisim inside the Arab world is because they are at the battlefront the Islamic-Western struggle and sht happens after that you know ?

You have extremists from the west provocing extremsits from the ME and all over the world, guess who gets stuck in the middle ?

That's right some sht happens in the ME and then in the west some lunatic does something, and the Muslims who actually oppose that get lumped up with the terrorists as being extremists and the non-extremsit westerners, get their life complicated and their situation gets worse and they end up blaming the relegion and all of it's followers for their problems (due to lack of knowledge about the relegion itslef + politics in the ME).
I have lived through this situation that I am describing and it's as ugly as it gets.

 

[Vic]

Anti-culturism is the new racism, that's all. It's simple enough to see because racism was always based on cultural prejudices anyway. Skin color was just the excuse. Now that people aren't supposed to hate the skin color, they're attacking the cultures directly. And conveniently, religious hate has become fashionable again, and what is culture (historically) but religion? Bigotry dies hard.

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Vic
Anti-culturism is the new racism, that's all. It's simple enough to see because racism was always based on cultural prejudices anyway. Skin color was just the excuse. Now that people aren't supposed to hate the skin color, they're attacking the cultures directly. And conveniently, religious hate has become fashionable again, and what is culture (historically) but religion? Bigotry dies hard.

I just dont feel its my obligation to limit what cartoons i draw because of their arbitrary designation of the divine, that doesnt mean that i think that people should create these type of things with the sole purpose of harassing a group who shares a belief

 

[DaFinn]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DaFinn

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
You haven't explained why so many muslims are acting violently in response to this single cartoon ? we don't see such phenomena in other religions


P.S. for anyone that missed the cartoons here it is again

http://www.pixelsboard.com/free/SIGAL/cartoon1.jpg

Violence happens anywhere anytime, Muslims are no exception to the rule, they just happen to be in a different political situation than any other people.

Really, why is it that when a minority of any other relegion commits an ugly / violent act only they are called violent, when a Muslim minority commits a violent act, it's all Muslims around the world that are violent, I am pretty sure that if 1.2 billion Muslims are as evil as those who are commiting the violent acts, wouldn't have had time to sit down here and answer to some of the idiotic members we have here.

If in the muslims view a single newspaper is representative of a country, then in my view several muslim governments are representative of the muslim world.

The problem is, muslim governements want Denmark to apologize, which it cannot do! Not for a newspaper, and not because of what it did is not wrong in Denmark. (Bad judgement maybe...) Now they are only adding fuel to the flames, demanding apology from Denmark, and saying its not doing enough??? Doing enough WHAT???

What the muslims (yes, MUSLIMS) are doing is in no way acceptable. And do they not understand, that those who will be most hurt by all this are the muslims?

Your post represents exactly what my opinion is in reality, but I didn't get the "(yes, MUSLIMS)" part, are you emphasizing on it to mean that yes all Muslims or did I misinterpret your point there ?

No you did not misinterpret, I was expacting someone to come in with "Noooo, its only the extremists, you cant say muslims in general..." I'm not talking just about the riots, but the general response to the whole incident.

 

[The Linuxator]

Originally posted by: DaFinn

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DaFinn

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
You haven't explained why so many muslims are acting violently in response to this single cartoon ? we don't see such phenomena in other religions


P.S. for anyone that missed the cartoons here it is again

http://www.pixelsboard.com/free/SIGAL/cartoon1.jpg

Violence happens anywhere anytime, Muslims are no exception to the rule, they just happen to be in a different political situation than any other people.

Really, why is it that when a minority of any other relegion commits an ugly / violent act only they are called violent, when a Muslim minority commits a violent act, it's all Muslims around the world that are violent, I am pretty sure that if 1.2 billion Muslims are as evil as those who are commiting the violent acts, wouldn't have had time to sit down here and answer to some of the idiotic members we have here.

If in the muslims view a single newspaper is representative of a country, then in my view several muslim governments are representative of the muslim world.

The problem is, muslim governements want Denmark to apologize, which it cannot do! Not for a newspaper, and not because of what it did is not wrong in Denmark. (Bad judgement maybe...) Now they are only adding fuel to the flames, demanding apology from Denmark, and saying its not doing enough??? Doing enough WHAT???

What the muslims (yes, MUSLIMS) are doing is in no way acceptable. And do they not understand, that those who will be most hurt by all this are the muslims?

Your post represents exactly what my opinion is in reality, but I didn't get the "(yes, MUSLIMS)" part, are you emphasizing on it to mean that yes all Muslims or did I misinterpret your point there ?

No you did not misinterpret, I was expacting someone to come in with "Noooo, its only the extremists, you cant say muslims in general..." I'm not talking just about the riots, but the general response to the whole incident.

For God's sake, what do you expect, do you expect Muslims marching in the streets holding posters of the journalist from Jylland's-Posten praising how he made everyone worse off, or did you expect them to start civil wars inside their countries against those who share the same point of view with them about the cartoons but differ with them about the solution!

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Hacp
I can make fun of black people in political cartoons. I can insult the president of the United States in political cartoons. I can make fun of entire couintries in political cartoons. I can make fun of republicans in politcal cartoons. Your telling me that I can't make fun of Muslims and the prohpet mohammad in a political cartoon?

You believe you can make fun of prophet mohammand in a political cartoon, they believe they can kill you for it. So now, everybody happy?

Yeah, and we'll fight to the death to defend our right to free speech. If they want some, I say come get it.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
Aisengard, I think linuxator is also talking about arab muslims and trying to say that even they are not all bad. While I agree with him on that point, the real point here why so many of the arab muslims (not the majority, but relatively a lot nonetheless - e.g. hundreds of thousands) go and protest about a cartoon, and also engage in violence and threats ? Again, I'm not saying its the majority, just a lot of people, and I understand they are probably being led by a few (I believe most of them have not even seen the cartoons). Sure, they are in a "different political situation" which I guess means they live under dictators which many times have an interest in inciting these protests to divert public anger at the regime itself.

So you think the west should understand that they are doing it because of their "different political situation" and accept it ?

am living in egypt and i didnt even hear that anyone made any violence, we jst want an apology cuz wut they did is to mess with our religion while we respect urs, we have christians here and others, we all live in peace..only u ppl think that there is so much violence in the mid east which is not true..u can attack with a cartoon including any luk of arabs but not the prophet!

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: senseamp
Newspapers have right to print these cartoons, and muslims have a right to protest. What they don't have the right to do is kill and burn embassies. That just reinforces what those cartoons are trying to say.

Either the papers have the legal right to print the cartoons or not is not the dispute, now is that legal right biased ? Absolutely, considering that they can't print the same stuff some other category of people which I won't mention (because it's not the topic here).

But the rest of your argument is completely valid IMO, trust me the majority Muslims do not agree with what happened till now (Death threats, burning of embassies...etc), but the question which presents itself is :

If there are Muslims out there (and a lot of them) that do not agree with what the others out there are doing, then why aren't we hearing much form them (i.e counter-protests...etc) ?
Well a lot of those Muslims, and me included find ourselves in a very difficult position, where we need to defend those who without any reason are stereotyping all of us and insulting us deeply with the clear intention of causing instability to everyone and inciting hate towards us + encouraging others to do the same thing, on the other hand we need to stop those of our religion who are pushing things beyond their legal and even religious boundaries, and in an ironic way helping people that print those cartoons to prove their point !

It's not an easy situation, and I know that for sure especially after the last period and more sepcifically here on P&N, where those who are allegedly defending the "freedom-of press" are actually a majority of people with hidden political agendas, and really think that Muslims, all of the Muslims in the world are terrorists (don't believe me read the threads) I tried to reason wit those people but they really didn't want to listen (I am not sure if anyone out there really wants to listen!).

It really didn't help, and I didn't see much if any extending their hands towards dialog with the Muslims who don't agree that violence is the solution, instead , almost everybody in here are just enjoying their free ride on the "fvck Islam" band-wagon, which unfortunately is causing more and more of the neutral Muslims to get even more shocked and a good number of them, unfortunatley find themselves agreeing with the other side's methods, mainly due to their denial of the cartoons and what is intended behind that.

Muhammad is a key figure in Islam, any attack on him is classified as an attack on Muslims, especially during the current fragile political situation, where Muslims have nothing left to hang on to but their faith!
So it's really as ironic as it gets.

So that's how you see it eh? Everyone's on the fvck Islam bandwagon.
I for once finally agree with all the aggressive voices on this particular issue. One Danish newspaper decided to print some pictures, and now a bunch of Muslims are attempting to scare them into apologizing and backing out. Not only that, those same Muslims are burning an embassy of the government of that newspaper.

Why? Over some pictures. Over their free speech. They didnt like the free speech, so they retaliated.

Well, that's fine. But when something like this happens and seems to be a harbinger of a larger issue, I think there is NO room for negotiation should the situation get very serious. I think that free speech is singularly important, more than your religion, or any other religion out there. I think many of us at P&N, while we squabble over petty issues, would agree with this key point. While you might whine and moan about this perceived mortal wound towards Islam, the disturbing fact remains that radical factions of Islam are attempting to use fear as a limiter to free speech, and that is the one thing we must not allow to be soiled and tainted.

I guess there's no room for reconciliation then? Let the terrorists bring it on, I think the world can show they can blow up bombs as well as the best suicide bomber can.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Taejin
Yeah, and we'll fight to the death to defend our right to free speech. If they want some, I say come get it.

u have the right to talk, say that muslims are all ciolent ppl and they are only bombers and we will talk, draw catoons that shows arabs with bombs and we will talk but showing the prophet is something that is totally forbidden, now u want ur freedom to be built on mine! oh i want to listen to music so i come next to ur house and set the volume to its max while u r sleeping and say that its my freedom..u have to get it that way.u have the right to talk about ppl not the prophet!

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Taejin
Yeah, and we'll fight to the death to defend our right to free speech. If they want some, I say come get it.

u have the right to talk, say that muslims are all ciolent ppl and they are only bombers and we will talk, draw catoons that shows arabs with bombs and we will talk but showing the prophet is something that is totally forbidden, now u want ur freedom to be built on mine! oh i want to listen to music so i come next to ur house and set the volume to its max while u r sleeping and say that its my freedom..u have to get it that way.u have the right to talk about ppl not the prophet!

We don't believe in your prophet. I couldnt care less if your prophet was a divine being or a dirty leper.

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Taejin

We don't believe in your prophet. I couldnt care less if your prophet was a divine being or a dirty leper.

we dont want you to believe just repect!-- i cudnt care less if u have ears or not, i want to listen to music! (cont. from last post)

 

[biostud]

To OP: You can only wonder why no muslims do the same protesting against Iran where you can freely buy posters with Muhammed, it's hypocrisy at the finest.

 

[DidlySquat]

Originally posted by: Taejin

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Taejin
Yeah, and we'll fight to the death to defend our right to free speech. If they want some, I say come get it.

u have the right to talk, say that muslims are all ciolent ppl and they are only bombers and we will talk, draw catoons that shows arabs with bombs and we will talk but showing the prophet is something that is totally forbidden, now u want ur freedom to be built on mine! oh i want to listen to music so i come next to ur house and set the volume to its max while u r sleeping and say that its my freedom..u have to get it that way.u have the right to talk about ppl not the prophet!

We don't believe in your prophet. I couldnt care less if your prophet was a divine being or a dirty leper.

QFT

Here are the cartoons in case you missed them:

http://www.pixelsboard.com/free/SIGAL/cartoon1.jpg

 

[Taejin]

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Taejin

We don't believe in your prophet. I couldnt care less if your prophet was a divine being or a dirty leper.

we dont want you to believe just repect!-- i cudnt care less if u have ears or not, i want to listen to music! (cont. from last post)

Well guess what - no one has to give you that respect. Free speech demands tolerance, not respect. And if some Muslims want to demand respect with fear and bombs - they aren't gonna get any.

You morons don't fvckin get it. People have a right to publish what they want. It's free speech. Your religion or any other religion, ideal or whatever DOES NOT MATTER. Does that make any sense? For crying out loud, no wonder your religion has problems with violent members.

 

[DidlySquat]

true....I have no respect for mohammad the so called "prophet"....in fact I think his violent and bloody ways inspire radical islam to this day

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: Taejin

Originally posted by: Alaa

Originally posted by: Taejin

We don't believe in your prophet. I couldnt care less if your prophet was a divine being or a dirty leper.

we dont want you to believe just repect!-- i cudnt care less if u have ears or not, i want to listen to music! (cont. from last post)

Well guess what - no one has to give you that respect. Free speech demands tolerance, not respect. And if some Muslims want to demand respect with fear and bombs - they aren't gonna get any.

You morons don't fvckin get it. People have a right to publish what they want. It's free speech. Your religion or any other religion, ideal or whatever DOES NOT MATTER. Does that make any sense? For crying out loud, no wonder your religion has problems with violent members.

u r just one of those ppl who just believe the news and the muslims are bad so they dont deserve respect, i wonder how cud they program u!? did they put a chip in ur head or wut? is it free to attack israel in ur country? do they let anyone even talk about their religion? they will just send them msgs and warnings..other ppl deserve the same..muslims deserve respect, we love our prophet more than our selves and we will defend against any one attacks him even if a robot like u comes and says its freedom, NO ITS NOT...

 

[Alaa]

Originally posted by: DidlySquat
true....I have no respect for mohammad the so called "prophet"....in fact I think his violent and bloody ways inspire radical islam to this day

we want respect from ppl we repect so sorry u r not invited!

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: Aisengard
This is all a misunderstanding of words.

Linux, when most people here say "Muslims" in regarding to the Muslims who are attacking the embassies and such, they are speaking about those guys and the many people in the Middle East who support them. We are not saying that all the Muslims in Indonesia (which I believe is the majority of the global Islamic population?), or all the Muslims in America are violent. Please try to understand that before putting words into people's mouths.

On another note, wouldn't it be nice and relieving to have a louder voice of Muslims condemning all these terrible things done in the name of their Lord, and their Savior. It would certainly help people divide "American and Indonesian" Muslims from the Arab variety.

Doh! And I thought you were making progress in understanding the situation, you don't move from generalizing Muslims to generalizing Arabic-Muslims and think that it is a logical opinion , I am an Arabic-Muslim, why am I not violent I was born and raised in the ME and have only been in the states since 6 years, extremists as well as non-extremits are very well spread outside the Arab world, deep inside the west, and outside the west, the main reason why you see a huge manifestation of this extremisim inside the Arab world is because they are at the battlefront the Islamic-Western struggle and sht happens after that you know ?

You have extremists from the west provocing extremsits from the ME and all over the world, guess who gets stuck in the middle ?

That's right some sht happens in the ME and then in the west some lunatic does something, and the Muslims who actually oppose that get lumped up with the terrorists as being extremists and the non-extremsit westerners, get their life complicated and their situation gets worse and they end up blaming the relegion and all of it's followers for their problems (due to lack of knowledge about the relegion itslef + politics in the ME).
I have lived through this situation that I am describing and it's as ugly as it gets.

Good for you, that you disassociate yourself with the prominent Middle East muslims that are causing all the terror. Now if only the millions more who did not want death to anyone would come out and stand up for their beliefs against their so-called "brethren," then we could have some real progress in this fiasco.

I see the problem. Who wants to cause trouble among their own people? Yet that is what must happen, there must be a separation between the extremists and the peaceful. Unfortunately the extremists are the loudest, and the peaceful are too peaceful to speak out too much against them, lest their families be killed or they be called traitors.

I also see why you are distressing that people are lumping all Muslims into one group based on these extremists who are taking your holy figures in vain, and sullying their visage. But you won't get very far unless a SIGNIFICANTLY LARGE NUMBER of Muslims stand up against these fakers who are hijacking your religion with speech of "Jihad" and "Death to the infidels" and whatnot. Obviously no one else can calm the storm. It has to work from the inside.

The truth is the cartoonists have already apologized, and even tried to get papers not to publish them. But the Mass Media is a beast which cannot be tamed. I hope that Muslims around the world see that the guy with the bomb on his head was out of ignorance of the religion, and also false knowledge that Mohommed actually would call the death of infidels everywhere, or the barbaric ideal that in heaven awaits countless virgins.

Yeah, there is racism and anti-culturism against the Middle East, but can you blame us? 9/11, Madrid, countless suicide bombings, that hotel in Indonesia, all perpetrated by Middle Eastern countries, or groups within those countries. And no Muslim nation seems to be doing a thing about it. That's what probably pisses people off the most, they see only this side of the Muslim religion, because the other, probably a lot more truthful side, is just sitting there, staying out of trouble. And unfortunately a lack of constant and consistent condemnation these days is akin to "siding with the enemy."

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: The Linuxator

Originally posted by: Aisengard
This is all a misunderstanding of words.

Linux, when most people here say "Muslims" in regarding to the Muslims who are attacking the embassies and such, they are speaking about those guys and the many people in the Middle East who support them. We are not saying that all the Muslims in Indonesia (which I believe is the majority of the global Islamic population?), or all the Muslims in America are violent. Please try to understand that before putting words into people's mouths.

On another note, wouldn't it be nice and relieving to have a louder voice of Muslims condemning all these terrible things done in the name of their Lord, and their Savior. It would certainly help people divide "American and Indonesian" Muslims from the Arab variety.

Doh! And I thought you were making progress in understanding the situation, you don't move from generalizing Muslims to generalizing Arabic-Muslims and think that it is a logical opinion , I am an Arabic-Muslim, why am I not violent I was born and raised in the ME and have only been in the states since 6 years, extremists as well as non-extremits are very well spread outside the Arab world, deep inside the west, and outside the west, the main reason why you see a huge manifestation of this extremisim inside the Arab world is because they are at the battlefront the Islamic-Western struggle and sht happens after that you know ?

You have extremists from the west provocing extremsits from the ME and all over the world, guess who gets stuck in the middle ?

That's right some sht happens in the ME and then in the west some lunatic does something, and the Muslims who actually oppose that get lumped up with the terrorists as being extremists and the non-extremsit westerners, get their life complicated and their situation gets worse and they end up blaming the relegion and all of it's followers for their problems (due to lack of knowledge about the relegion itslef + politics in the ME).
I have lived through this situation that I am describing and it's as ugly as it gets.

Yeah, there is racism and anti-culturism against the Middle East, but can you blame us? 9/11, Madrid, countless suicide bombings, that hotel in Indonesia, all perpetrated by Middle Eastern countries, or groups within those countries. And no Muslim nation seems to be doing a thing about it. That's what probably pisses people off the most, they see only this side of the Muslim religion, because the other, probably a lot more truthful side, is just sitting there, staying out of trouble. And unfortunately a lack of constant and consistent condemnation these days is akin to "siding with the enemy."

lets not be deluded into the idea that the the united states as a collectivity is somehow in the right with all this, the blood is on everyones hands and it is up to the fair minded and decent of all cultures and religions to put a stop to all of this..

anti culturalism and racism isnt exactly the solution either, yes i can blame people for that, its ignorant to blame an entire group of people for what a portion of them do.. what if condemnation here meant being murdered? it isnt as simple as you like to believe, a lot of the people who might want to oppose the more radical approaches to dealing with these issues are having their dissent crushed ..for example in the united states the government propoganda and the media droning out any reasonable solutions.....then when we commit a war of aggression on iraq it only further feeds the extremists...the government has almost everyone scared into the idea that full scale wars somehow will reduce extremism...who honestly believes that the roots of extremism are not tied to war and its ilk

 

[Orignal Earl]

What stand has the U.S. gov taken on this. Has Bush gave a statement yet?

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
What stand has the U.S. gov taken on this. Has Bush gave a statement yet?

It's not a big deal.

It isn't happening in the U.S with the 7 million Muslims here.

 

[Taejin]

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
What stand has the U.S. gov taken on this. Has Bush gave a statement yet?

It's not a big deal.

It isn't happening in the U.S with the 7 million Muslims here.

No support for Denmark either?