-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
The death of American Nationalism
Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Dissipate
Diamond Member
Relative to other countries in Africa it isn't doing so bad.
Text
BTW, there is a Jewish anarcho-capitalist economist:
A Jewish Anarcho-capitalist economist
sandorski
No Lifer
Good post Meuge. Not only did you identify Good/Bad Nationalism, but I also think you nailed on the head many of the reasons why.
Not to divert the thread, but I also think recent Events have certainly not helped Americans to find their bearings either. Too many issues have turned out to be disasters, too many events have served to embarrass and to bring doubt to the American soul, too many people have settled for the Bad Nationalist nature, that any hope for America to turn around grows dimmer as time passes.
Not to divert the thread, but I also think recent Events have certainly not helped Americans to find their bearings either. Too many issues have turned out to be disasters, too many events have served to embarrass and to bring doubt to the American soul, too many people have settled for the Bad Nationalist nature, that any hope for America to turn around grows dimmer as time passes.
sandorski
No Lifer
If that's what you call it, then yes!
Bad Nationalism is the type that believes that one can do no wrong no matter what they do.
Gas an Ethnic group, must be the Right thing to do, because we are doing it!
Invade a country that has no issue with you, must be Right because we are doing it!
Let people live destitute in the streets, must be Right because we are doing it!
etc, ad nauseum
What's Right is Right, what's Wrong is Wrong, even if you do it. This is the mantra of a true Naionalist, one who wants to see his/her nation become something better, not worse.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
He says he wishes for anarchy, but in reality, there isn't any such thing as anarchy. Rather, some powerful gang would end up controlling the use of physical force and become a de facto despotic government. The question isn't really about whether or not to have a government, but rather, which type to have.
OMG--you mean that the end result of anarchy is...dictatorship by warring gangs of thugs?
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
Or what happens when you accuse me of theft and you hire private police force A to apprehend me. Then I hire private police force B to protect me from your unjust claims and the band of thugs that you hired to apprehend me.
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
What good are the low phone rates when few people have telephones?
WhipperSnapper
Lifer
I have enough blame to go around for both of the parties. They're both bad. Throw all the bums out of the Congress, I say.
Stunt
Diamond Member
I think nationalism is one of the biggest problems in our world today. We have become so overwhemed with only helping our own country, many others around the world suffer due to irrational reasoning.
For example, the EU was created for 3 key economic values; free flow of labour markets, efficient capital markets, and productivity improvements through economies of scale. Through the development of the EU, many countries are putting resrictions on foriegn ownership, limiting these markets from evolving and rallying around nationalist views through protectoinist means.
Similarly with the US and others in the first world; many feel just because they were born into a prosperous nation, they are entitled to more than other more deserving people around the world. Sense of entitlement is another problem steming from these nationalistic views; again leads to irrational protectionist and restrictive measures. These nationalistic views tend to rear their ugly heads on immigration, outsourcing, foreign ownership, subsidies.
If the US is becoming less nationalistic, i welcome this; hopefully other countries follow suit.
For example, the EU was created for 3 key economic values; free flow of labour markets, efficient capital markets, and productivity improvements through economies of scale. Through the development of the EU, many countries are putting resrictions on foriegn ownership, limiting these markets from evolving and rallying around nationalist views through protectoinist means.
Similarly with the US and others in the first world; many feel just because they were born into a prosperous nation, they are entitled to more than other more deserving people around the world. Sense of entitlement is another problem steming from these nationalistic views; again leads to irrational protectionist and restrictive measures. These nationalistic views tend to rear their ugly heads on immigration, outsourcing, foreign ownership, subsidies.
If the US is becoming less nationalistic, i welcome this; hopefully other countries follow suit.
Bowfinger
Lifer
I don't love getting taxed and regulated all. I am, however, reasoned enough to recognize that my personal success was greatly facilitated by the opportunities presented by our extraordinary physical, educational, and financial infrastructure, and I am mature enough to recognize there is no such thing as a free lunch. If I want to live in a country offering such extraordinary opportunities, I have to be willing to help pay for them ... so I do. If you don't, perhaps you should move to Somalia. I hear they have great phone rates ... to nowhere.
As I've said many times, I'd prefer to keep 60% of a Big Gulp than 90% of a shot glass. While you're busy whining about the imaginary 40% you "lost", I'm prefer to be positive and constructive, enjoying 100% of the 60% I have.
(Edit. By the way, I actually started to put together a list of all of my "songs", i.e., the positions and issues I've supported/advocated/debated here. I realized how totally absurd your accusation was when I was up to about thirty with no end in sight. You have exactly one song with two related verses -- government bad, taxes bad -- and you constantly burst into singing it in all the inappropriate places, like this thread.)
Sure you have. Links?
Me: In my mind, the single biggest threat that this country faces today, is the disappearance of nationalism... on the part of the people, but even more so on the part of our leaders. Not the xenophobic, hateful, fascist nationalism that oh-too-many countries in the world promote... but rather the healthy, patriotic interest in the success of the country as a whole.
Mo: Do you really think that people who think of the welfare of the country are thinking of the country or welfare in general. I think my concern for the welfare of my country is more about the welfare of the human race and all actions are local. I would question whether what you refer to as healthy patriotism is patriotism at all.
Me: This sense of "belonging" has been replaced by arrogance and overwhelming greed and desire for personal wealth.
Mo: But this has always been the dilemma, no? I think people are more altruistic when secure than when filled with fear. But we have discovered, have we not, that fear sells papers and gets fear mongers elected.
Me: It seems that the idea that the success of the leader is also judged by the success of his country has been flushed down the corporate toilet.
Mo: Not if by success you mean getting elected. 😀
Me: Now, don't get me wrong - I am all for self-interest. It is in the nature of any man (and woman) to strive to enrich themselves. But nowadays, this "enrichment" seems to be limited strictly to the monetary kind.
Mo: Grab all the gusto you can, right? Isn't that interest in self the very means by which capitalism is propelled? Buying product is what will make you happy, I've been told millions of times. I was going to help my neighbor but the bastard bought a better car than me.
Me: I am appalled at the economic and political trends that we have allowed to continue.
Mo: Which?
Me: What happened to the spirit of the great leaders of the history books - leaders who have sought, with all their might, to reform, to improve, and to enrich their nations!
Mo: I think most of them had the history books written. 😉
Me: What happened to the idea that a leader can accumulate wealth without destroying the very basis of the machine that generated that wealth in the first place!
Mo: Huh?
Me: But let's look wider - is this trend limited to the halls of power? The answer is a resounding "no". The ultra-materialist, consumerist culture that we have bogged down in, leaves no room for anything other than immediate self-interest. Just watching network TV for a few hours leaves me with a horrified impression that we no longer value the idea of "creating" something... if it interferes with our immediate gain... or if it takes any real effort altogether.
Mo: Network TV is in the business of creating a circus that delivers a maximum number of eyeballs to advertisers. They are not in the information business except as a circus act. If it bleeds is leads, you see.
Me: It appears as if the only solution our society has for any problems we now encounter, is to throw money at it... as if additional funds could stop our children from worshipping ideals of violence, ignorance, and idleness... as if more money could save us from the impending crumbling of healthcare due to massive consuming bureacracies... or the inability to take care of our elderly - the very generation that saved the world from the iron fist of Nazi oppression.
Mo: The issue is not to solve problems. The issue is to get enough votes to get re-elected.
Me: I sit here, a foreigner, and I am horrified at the fact that I can see myself having a deeper regard for the ideals, ideals, and future of the United States, then many of the people who were born here... and many of the people who are leading us into oblivion. Maybe it's just paranoia, born out of the oppressive regime I was brought up in, but perhaps what I see has some truth to it. I leave it up to you to decide.
Mo: Transplanting from one culture to another can interfere with the programming of the first and mess up implantation of the second. Just don't worry about things. Think about what you can buy. Imagine yourself in a new Mustang. Everything will be all right.
Mo: Do you really think that people who think of the welfare of the country are thinking of the country or welfare in general. I think my concern for the welfare of my country is more about the welfare of the human race and all actions are local. I would question whether what you refer to as healthy patriotism is patriotism at all.
Me: This sense of "belonging" has been replaced by arrogance and overwhelming greed and desire for personal wealth.
Mo: But this has always been the dilemma, no? I think people are more altruistic when secure than when filled with fear. But we have discovered, have we not, that fear sells papers and gets fear mongers elected.
Me: It seems that the idea that the success of the leader is also judged by the success of his country has been flushed down the corporate toilet.
Mo: Not if by success you mean getting elected. 😀
Me: Now, don't get me wrong - I am all for self-interest. It is in the nature of any man (and woman) to strive to enrich themselves. But nowadays, this "enrichment" seems to be limited strictly to the monetary kind.
Mo: Grab all the gusto you can, right? Isn't that interest in self the very means by which capitalism is propelled? Buying product is what will make you happy, I've been told millions of times. I was going to help my neighbor but the bastard bought a better car than me.
Me: I am appalled at the economic and political trends that we have allowed to continue.
Mo: Which?
Me: What happened to the spirit of the great leaders of the history books - leaders who have sought, with all their might, to reform, to improve, and to enrich their nations!
Mo: I think most of them had the history books written. 😉
Me: What happened to the idea that a leader can accumulate wealth without destroying the very basis of the machine that generated that wealth in the first place!
Mo: Huh?
Me: But let's look wider - is this trend limited to the halls of power? The answer is a resounding "no". The ultra-materialist, consumerist culture that we have bogged down in, leaves no room for anything other than immediate self-interest. Just watching network TV for a few hours leaves me with a horrified impression that we no longer value the idea of "creating" something... if it interferes with our immediate gain... or if it takes any real effort altogether.
Mo: Network TV is in the business of creating a circus that delivers a maximum number of eyeballs to advertisers. They are not in the information business except as a circus act. If it bleeds is leads, you see.
Me: It appears as if the only solution our society has for any problems we now encounter, is to throw money at it... as if additional funds could stop our children from worshipping ideals of violence, ignorance, and idleness... as if more money could save us from the impending crumbling of healthcare due to massive consuming bureacracies... or the inability to take care of our elderly - the very generation that saved the world from the iron fist of Nazi oppression.
Mo: The issue is not to solve problems. The issue is to get enough votes to get re-elected.
Me: I sit here, a foreigner, and I am horrified at the fact that I can see myself having a deeper regard for the ideals, ideals, and future of the United States, then many of the people who were born here... and many of the people who are leading us into oblivion. Maybe it's just paranoia, born out of the oppressive regime I was brought up in, but perhaps what I see has some truth to it. I leave it up to you to decide.
Mo: Transplanting from one culture to another can interfere with the programming of the first and mess up implantation of the second. Just don't worry about things. Think about what you can buy. Imagine yourself in a new Mustang. Everything will be all right.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
Yep, Reagan started the absolute bullcrap of trickle down Economics in which nothing flows down but crap, the rich just get richer.
It only took so long because the U.S. had a real American at the helm in between with Clinton.
Hell the guy even loves sex which the prude Republicans raked him over the coals with.
dmcowen674
No Lifer
You're confusing Nationalism with brainwashed puppetry called Republican.
Certainly not the same thing.
I don't think Republicans destroyed America. I think the 1950s fat cats are doing it. The oil magnates, the media execs, the communications CEOs - many of them seem to be the epitome of the stereotypical "old white men", who have no limits to their power, no fear of anything, and no tolerance for any innovation. I think that in order for this to pass, we may very well have to wait until they pass... and more progressive industry leaders take over. It may be a pipe dream, but I'll take Sergey Brin over Kenneth Lay any day.
Careful.
It's the lamentation of a lack of a nationalistic mentality that gave rise to the neoconservative movement and also gave rise to the militant Islamist movement. Check out The Power of Nightmares to see the eery similarities in the philosophies of the two.
Also, America is a very large and disparate country. America is made from a mix of cultures. It's not like, say, Ireland or Germany or Spain. The shear size of America's geography almost precludes an overriding national identity.
But, re: the consumerism aspect of today's society, yes I agree with you and have written about it a bit, myself.
It's going to take something like the next Great Depression to wake Americans out of their boob-tube-induced stupor.
Cerb
Elite Member
While Dissipate is an extremist, you are caving in.
Water? Not a tax.
Telephone? not a tax.
Garbage collection? Not a tax.
Electricity and gas service are also not taxes.
These services we consider essential are paid for voluntarily. They are 'universal' because there is universal demand, not because sitting property (I'll include vehicles in that, BTW) or salary needs to be garnished to make them work.
Cerb
Elite Member
I would dare say innovation is their one fear, because it could put them out, and force them to take risks. They must keep progressives from taking over until the Earth is unable to cope (which we've clearly past, but that will get debated feircely until we're almost a memory).
...why should I foster or help serve nationalism, when it's the raving nationalists that are doing their best to run the country?
Dissipate
Diamond Member
If I am going to move to Somalia, perhaps you should move to China. They have a strong central government. Should be paradise for you.
'Extraordinary' physical, educational, and financial infrastructure? That's a joke to begin with, especially with regards to education. But the truth of the matter is that the bulk of government expenditures are what are known as transfer payments (welfare) and warfare. If all the government did was set up telephone lines, pave roads, provide 'education,' and courts I could live with that. But only a fraction of the enormous budget is spent on that stuff. Look at the budget yourself. We aren't talking about infrastructure here, we are talking about welfare and warfare. These two things are the most expensive and most outrageous things to spend on. Get rid of those and you could slash the budget by at least 80-90%.
I'm glad you realize you have said this fallacious and completely unsupported bullsh!t a number of times. In fact I believe this is your only song.
:music: Big Gulps and shot glasses... :music:
Damn, that song sucks.
1 (Especially section 4)
2
3
4
...:music: Get your woman on the floor. :music:
:music: Gotta gotta get up, get down...:music:
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 24K
-
-
