The Dark Side (Starting tonight on PBS Frontline)

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Todd33
It's amazing that some people (Franks, Powell, Tenet) had principles early on and then folded under pressure before Iraq. What were they offered and or threatened with?

Considering the cost in human lives, and the fact that any of them could have, and should have stepped up to stop this fiasco before it started, my guess would be that each of them was paid a symbolic thirty pieces of silver. 🙁

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: conjur
Back ON TOPIC (that paletroll and his ilk keep avoiding)


Video available online today after 5pm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

Thanks for the post. It still hasn't viewed locally yet.

Come and get it now!

That site has the video of the broadcast now.

 

[Ldir]

Thanks. I'm going to try to catch it tonight.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Thump553

Originally posted by: conjur
Back ON TOPIC (that paletroll and his ilk keep avoiding)


Video available online today after 5pm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/

Thanks for the post. It still hasn't viewed locally yet.

Come and get it now!

That site has the video of the broadcast now.

Thanks for the link man. Thats a great site. While your over there ya might wanna check this out too. Very enlightening.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: dahunan
Did PaleHorse EVER YET COMMENT ON THE SHOW ITSELF 😕

Did he watch the show about abu-ghraib where they tortured people to death and shoved batons in their rectums?

1.) who tortured people to death at Abu G?
2.) who shoved batons up their rectums at Abu G?

Please answer both of those questions, with specifics.

BTW, you were in the service.. don't answer questons with questions.. right?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/view/

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
Yes, shame on them for not taking a stand. But how could they when they were fed false information?

<insert "we were duped" backup plan>

Just as much was known about the evidence back then as now.

Why didn't they ask for better proof instead of just voting first, asking questions later?

You know perfectly well why. Liberals have been called cowards and traitors by the swine of the right for so long they have lost all self respect and courage and have become the 'just kill um' wannabes too. They have been beaten and beaten in election after election by the fear-mongering assholes on the right that manipulate the American public by fear. The lying scum-ball ****** that pass for conservatives have turned the whole country into a cesspool of terrified reactionary bigots.

LOL I know perfectly well why? Nope, no "victim mentality" there. Why, how could the poor little liberals* ever stand up for themselves!! :roll: What a joke.

No, the liberals* basically have modeled a "which way is political wind blowing" technique, evidenced by the "let's go to war" bandwagon jump, and now the "we were duped" bandwagon #2 jump.

Principles are principles, courage is courage, self-respect is self-respect. They aren't lost by people calling you names or by losing elections. That's the cowardly way out, blaming others for your own failings.


*your word usage, not mine.

I don't think Moonbeam was defending, nor apologizing, them.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: AnandTech Moderator
We have people here that seemed intent on hi-jacking this thread.

Any perceived attempts after the 5 minute mark will be dealt with accordingly

Thank you.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

So did anyone actually watch this program? Let's have some objective discussion shall we?

 

[Bitek]

God I love Frontline, their documentries are always so well put together and cover topics no one else really goes into (ie big coporate media.) I'll have to watch this later.
I highly recommend the Secrets of the Credit Card Industry, and the Can You Afford to Retire? Both excellent and frightening 😱

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
So did anyone actually watch this program? Let's have some objective discussion shall we?

Yes, I did. See my first post in the thread. This is my fourth. Try reading the previous pages of the thread, and you'd find that at least some others did, too. 🙂

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Todd33
It's amazing that some people (Franks, Powell, Tenet) had principles early on and then folded under pressure before Iraq. What were they offered and or threatened with?

Considering the cost in human lives, and the fact that any of them could have, and should have stepped up to stop this fiasco before it started, my guess would be that each of them was paid a symbolic thirty pieces of silver. 🙁

Hmm that's interesting. From the program, I got the impression that Cheyney was just so damn good at manipulation and scheming that Tennent was just completely bamboozled. And they said that he looked Powell in the eye and said all of the WMD info was correct. So Powell was probably just going off that, and Tennent was the one who really should have took a stand. I think they wanted to be team players even if they were a bit apprehensive about the war.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
Hmm that's interesting. From the program, I got the impression that Cheyney was just so damn good at manipulation and scheming that Tennent was just completely bamboozled. And they said that he looked Powell in the eye and said all of the WMD info was correct. So Powell was probably just going off that, and Tennent was the one who really should have took a stand. I think they wanted to be team players even if they were a bit apprehensive about the war.

I don't buy it to that level. Both Powell and Tenet have far too much experience in Washington politics, and as the general who led the coalition forces in first Gulf war Powell's own rules included going in with overwhelming force and having a clear exit strategy. It was evident well before Bushwhackos pulled the trigger that neither of these rules was observed going into Iraq.

Tenet may simply have sold out to maintain his position. Powell has no excuse, and has been quoted since then as saying it is the most embarrassing moment in his life. Even if Cheney actually fooled him, he has plenty to be ashamed of, just for allowing himself to be taken in.

 

[dahunan]

I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.. it would probably just make me sick to my stomach even more if I did.

But.. all people really have to do is look at the makeup of this cabinet and all the military ties they alllllll have and what was Georges Daddy the Director of and what was Cheney the Head of etc etc.. We should have known we would be going to war with someone and those fvcking idiots thought Iraq was some sort of soft target.. I wish they all feel the pains that the mothers and fathers of the dead US soldiers and the dead innocent iraqis feel.. I hope they all go to hell

 

[Tab]

Wow, this is very good. I highly recommend you watch this.

 

[flawlssdistortn]

Ok, nevermind Powell and Tenet... What has happened to our government and our country that we were led into a war under false pretenses so easily? There are many intelligent people in America, but it seems that all of a sudden we found ourselves in this quagmire and now everyone is pointing the finger at the other.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn
Ok, nevermind Powell and Tenet... What has happened to our government and our country that we were led into a war under false pretenses so easily? There are many intelligent people in America, but it seems that all of a sudden we found ourselves in this quagmire and now everyone is pointing the finger at the other.

Christ, Tenet fvcked up so bad... I wonder how that man can live with what he's done...

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
PBS? biased leftwing crapola?!?! nahhhhh... no way, not them!

bah.

Every penny of our tax dollars that is wasted on this leftist shinola is a roundhouse kick in the balls.

PBS and NPR should be privatized. period.

you are a twit. pbs is pretty well balanced, especially frontline. they have solid documentaries and not cr@p like michael moore. course being balanced and fair is "liberal" to some people😛

if you want to see a real leftist slant on documentaries, look at some of what they play on the bbc, it they get rather michael moorish at times.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: flawlssdistortn

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Too bad Powell and Tennent didn't have the balls to continue to stand up to Cheney and Rummy, we might not have gotten into this mistake in Iraq.

Yeah, Tennent ended up backing the war, convincing Powell that the facts were correct, and then ate all the sh!t once it was discovered that the info was bad. Cheney got his war, increased Bush's (his) executive powers, and knocked Tennent out of the game. I would not be surprised if Cheney banged Mrs Tennent and Powell on top of all that. Brilliant. So much for checks and balances. But shocking that all it takes is the defeat of two or three key members in the government to start a war.

Well, it also took a majority vote by the house and senate. Just a minor detail.

An unconstitutional legalistic figleaf to hide the illegality of the war.

for u.

would u like fries with that super-sized order of bullsh1t?

Heh. It has been several days since this thread began and all you can come up with is denial, empty rethoric and desperate diversions. Pathetic Palehorse, pathetic.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
why should our tax dollars pay for broadcasts which are blatantly anti-administration in nature? why should there be ANY political slant to ANY shows broadcast on public radio/TV?!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and this is regardless of the content of said shows: National Public TV/Radio should be used to display contact and emergency information ONLY! There is no rhyme or reason to broadcasting politically-charged programming on stations funded by our tax dollars. period.

You are, excuse my language, dumb. I mean really. And there's no excuse for it. Your ignorance is only equalled by your refusal to understand basic principles of media, democracy and public interest/public policy.

A strong, free and non-partisan public television and radio service is a staple of democracy in any civilised country in the world. This "fall-in behind our leader, right or wrong" idiocy, exprressed by so many Americans, is just as scary as the feelings of loss expressed by many Soviet citizens when Stalin died.

A public television, freed from commercial restraints and corporate agendas is an absolute must.

The president is a public servant, not your father-figure. And any public servant should be accountable for his mistakes. End of story.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
why should our tax dollars pay for broadcasts which are blatantly anti-administration in nature? why should there be ANY political slant to ANY shows broadcast on public radio/TV?!

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and this is regardless of the content of said shows: National Public TV/Radio should be used to display contact and emergency information ONLY! There is no rhyme or reason to broadcasting politically-charged programming on stations funded by our tax dollars. period.

And your opinion is just that, yours. Millions of children have been educated by PBS, millions of adults too, it's just too bad you're not one of them. And it's too bad they don't goosestep along side of rush, hannity, o'reilly et al. and only show the happy shiny lies that the propaganda machine wants us to see.
I have zero doubt that this administration used lies, manipulation and 'credible' news outlets to spew their bile to the public. Fortunately, most educated, and enlighted people are finally seeing the truth. And if this program helps that cause it should be broadcast 24/7.
Too bad you're such a whackjob you can't see PBS and NPR for what they truly are, the PUBLICS' media, not a corporation, not the government. Weren't you being deployed in a month about 3 months ago?

 

[conehead433]

I managed to see this last night and for the most part the interviews as well as footage of Cheney and others in the administration who were pushing for the invasion of Iraq was nothing that hadn't aired or been publicized before. PBS has done an excellent job of putting it all together and I highly recommend watching this program. Some of the information was new to me however, and that included Tenet's leading Powell to believe the evidence of the mobile biological labs. What a tangled web of deceit that was woven by this administration.

 

[conjur]

On the heels of this is an upcoming Senate Democratic committee to hold an oversight hearing on Iraq pre-war intelligence. Two of the speakers will be Paul Pillar (former CIA analyst) and Lawrence Wilkerson (Powell's chief of staff). Both were featured in the Frontline documentary.

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Senat..._committee_to_hold_oversight_0623.html

Downing Street Memo reporter to join Democrats

The Senate Democratic Policy Committee (DPC) will be holding a special oversight hearing on pre-war intelligence relating to Iraq Monday, RAW STORY has learned.

"If we're going to get things right when it comes to Iran, North Korea, and other national security threats, we need to learn what went wrong in the case of Iraq," DPC chairman Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) said in a statement.

The hearing is not an official Congressional hearing, which must be convened with Republican support. It does, however, mark an aggressive step by Democrats to bypass the usual channels for intelligence oversight -- namely the House and Senate Intelligence Committees -- which remain mired in partisan disputes.

"Clearly we need good intelligence, but that's not the end of the discussion," he added. "We need to know what set of policies need to be in place as we go forward in order to fix what went wrong in the past."

Senator Dorgan's spokesman told RAW STORY that the hearing shouldn't be characterized as a response to the delayed Senate Intelligence Committee Phase II investigation into pre-war Iraq intelligence.

"For starters there has never been a hearing on the use of pre-war intelligence, but essentially the purpose is there were clearly some problems with intelligence leading up to the Iraq war," said spokesman Barry Piatt. "There's been a lot of discussion about the quality of the pre-war intelligence but there's been almost no discussion about how the intelligence that we had was actually used."

"The purpose of the hearing is to essentially learn from the past," Piatt told RAW STORY. "We've got some enormous challenges with Iran and Korea and we need to get this right."

Numerous former officials to speak

British journalist Michael Smith, who broke the Downing Street memos story in the spring of 2005, which revealed that Blair and his ministers plotted to justify Bush's planned invasion eight months before the official start of the war, will appear as a witness via videoconference at the hearing.

"I decided to give evidence because they asked me to do so, it was clear they were genuinely interested in what I had to say, and it was part of genuine attempt to get to grips with the implications of the leaked memos," Smith told RAW STORY. "It would not be appropriate to discuss beforehand what I will be saying to the committee but it will of course go over issues that I have already written about extensively."

Two former officials slated to testify were recently featured in the PBS Frontline documentary "The Dark Side" which reported on the battle between Vice President Cheney and the CIA to control secret intelligence activities.

In the documentary, Lawrence Wilkerson, former Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell blasted former National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice for letting ambition cloud her judgment.

"We had a one-word description of the National Security Council...and that one word was 'dysfunctional,'" said Wilkerson.

"How could a woman as competent as Dr. Rice seemed to be ? indeed, Secretary Powell had told me she was a sort of a protégé of his ? [head up an organization that] could be so dysfunctional?" asked Wilkerson. "I'd say simply she had her eye on the prize, and the prize was a Cabinet position ? and a particular Cabinet position, secretary of state ? and as national security adviser, one works one's ambitions to achieve that position."

Former CIA analyst, Paul Pillar, authored the "white paper," which publicly assessed the prewar weapons programs of Iraq now "regrets" his involvement.

"It was clearly requested and published for policy advocacy purposes," Pillar said in the documentary. "The purpose was to strengthen the case for going to war."

"Is it proper for the intelligence community to publish papers for that purpose?" Pillar said. "I don't think so and I regret having had a role in it."

Full list of witnesses as listed on the DPC press release:

Lawrence Wilkerson, Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, 2001-2005

Paul Pillar, CIA official responsible for coordinating intelligence on Iraq, 2000-2005

Carl Ford, Assistant Secretary of State for Intelligence and Research, 2001-2003

Wayne White, State Department principal Iraq analyst, 2003-2005

Rod Barton, Senior Advisor to the Iraq Survey Group, 2003-2004

Michael Smith, reporter for the Sunday Times of London, and the first to report the existence of the so-called "Downing Street Memo"

Joseph Cirincione, co-author of WMD in Iraq: Evidence and Implications