The Danger of Supranational Superpowers

[Dari]

Created from the ashes of two global wars, the European Union is seen, among other things, as a powerful inhibitor to another European tribal conflict. What started out as an economic community is blossoming into a full-fledged political creature with functioning organs not unlike nation-states. Seen by many Europeans as social/political/economic solution to many of their ancient ills, the European Union is a club that many wanted to be associated with, on varying levels.

However, there is a darker side to this club. Those adept at understanding Soviet history will see the uneasy similarities. Both Unions were born out of an economic schema and the rubbles of global warfare. Both expanded their powers once the economic bond was so strong that it was thought impossible to break. Both Unions are largely ran by unelected intellectuals, with an unseen hand (Per Me reges regnant) providing guidance. Both Unions sought to rule disparate populations from all over Europe. The populace in both Unions understand very little about the inner workings of the bureaucracy, creating a massive political divide. Very little discussion is taken on key political issues, except among the politicos in Brussels and (then) Moscow, with their arcane jargons and internal culture that is secretive.

Europe, unknowingly or passively, is giving up her power and individuality to a massive entity that aims to sweep away sovereign borders. Sooner or later, this entity, once it has completely encircled Europe, will challenge the United States for global supremacy. For better or worse, this entity will dictate those it claims to represent.

 

[freegeeks]

what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world save

 

[Mrburns2007]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

 

[sandorski]

Someone's getting nervous.

 

[Mrburns2007]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

major wars in the last 50 years, name em

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

our history goes back a little bit longer also

it just seems to me that the USA is getting nervous that someone can challenge them as the only superpower

 

[dpm]

Originally posted by: Dari
Created from the ashes of two global wars, the European Union is seen, among other things, as a powerful inhibitor to another European tribal conflict. What started out as an economic community is blossoming into a full-fledged political creature with functioning organs not unlike nation-states. Seen by many Europeans as social/political/economic solution to many of their ancient ills, the European Union is a club that many wanted to be associated with, on varying levels. However, there is a darker side to this club. Those adept at understanding Soviet history will see the uneasy similarities. Both Unions were born out of an economic schema and the rubbles of global warfare. Both expanded their powers once the economic bond was so strong that it was thought impossible to break. Both Unions are largely ran by unelected intellectuals, with an unseen hand (Per Me reges regnant) providing guidance. Both Unions sought to rule disparate populations from all over Europe. The populace in both Unions understand very little about the inner workings of the bureaucracy, creating a massive political divide. Very little discussion is taken on key political issues, except among the politicos in Brussels and (then) Moscow, with their arcane jargons and internal culture that is secretive. Europe, unknowingly or passively, is giving up her power and individuality to a massive entity that aims to sweep away sovereign borders. Sooner or later, this entity, once it has completely encircled Europe, will challenge the United States for global supremacy. For better or worse, this entity will dictate those it claims to represent.

Dari, nice post, although I take issue a little with the choice of language, which is not particularly objective.

The author of the passage above ( I take it you are quoting someone) takes an interesting track comparing the formation of the EU and the USSR, but I feel does so only on an extremely simplistic level, and does not take this far enough. It would be more interesting if he compared the formation of all large super/supra-national entities. For example, you would also get interesting similarities if you inserted the USA along with the EU and the USSR, a fact I take to prove the facile nature of the comparison.

More interesting is the level to which Europe is misunderstood, often deliberately. Political and social union was always the goal of the EU - read the Treaty of Rome and some of its background. It started as an economic-only union, on the model of the ECSC, because this wast the logical way to start a gradual process, as well as becuase this was an easy way for the people of the 6 nations to get used to the idea and benefits of union.

While some people (most of the populace of Britain, for example) may have believed that limited economic union was the end-goal of the EEC, rather than eventual political union, this was only because certain British political figures decided they wanted the benefits of joining the EU without the difficulties of persuading the famously independent British populace of the benefits of political union.

(As a side note, its interesting to consider just how different the history of the last 50 years would have been if the french government had accepted Churchill's offer of a Franco-British Union after the fall of Paris in WW2).

The charge that the people of the EU don't understand its workings is correct. However, this is not the result of some sinister plan by the EU, rather the laziness of people, and their general lack of interest in the workings of the boring parts of government. Few people bother to understand how their countries civil service works, even if they bother to understand how their parliamentary system works. The EU spends a considerable amount of time and money each year trying to explain itself to people, but you can't its a bit too technical to be too interesting! This, combined with the fact that most people still don't think of the EU as that important, means that they tend to switch off at the mere mention of it. For example, how many Europeans on this board have noticed that each year the EU spends a day it calls "Europe Day" trying to explain itself and promote its activities? Does anyone know the date?

The 'unelected' issue is troublesome. The parliament is directly elected, but has little power (although its role is increasing steadily). The commission has more power, and is not directly elected, althought he Commissioners are chosen by the directly elected national governments. The Council is still more powerful and is comprised of the Foreign ministers of the National governments.

The problem that the EU has is that not enough of its power is held by people directly elected to that purpose, although it is, in the main, held by people at least directly elected to national government. The EU needs to prove to its citizens that it is more important, so they pay more power to it, which will add more legitimacy to the parliament, which will help shape the EU so that more power is held by the directly elected. Recent events, such as the debate on the pending European Constitution, are a start on this.

As to whether the EU will "challenge the US for global supremacy", which I imagine is your main concern, surely this is inevitable? The US will not remain in its pre-eminent position forever - no country ever does. The EU will have to learn to project more power merely to maintain their current position, as countries other than the US rise to challenge it in the middle future.

 

[dmcowen674]

I haven't seen any evidence of any Organiztion across the Pond willing to "Police" the World. They seem more like Super Wusses than Super Powers. Correct me if I am wrong but the U.N., Nato and EU have been the most inept Organizations ever. Zero backbone, zero teeth.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I haven't seen any evidence of any Organiztion across the Pond willing to "Police" the World. They seem more like Super Wusses than Super Powers. Correct me if I am wrong but the U.N., Nato and EU have been the most inept Organizations ever. Zero backbone, zero teeth.

well they only do heed the will of their member countries, and I guess not many countries to want to be considered a rouge nation and going up against their own charters and international laws

 

[Dari]

Great post, dpm. You've provided some great insight.

With the United States providing a security blanket, the Europeans went on a successful multilateral adventure. The problem with their supposed nirvana is that it has never worked in history (the non-imperial rule over disparate groups of people). Now they're trying to export this idealism (communism, anyone?) to the wider world by using themselves as examples. If the US wasn't there, I seriously doubt that the Europeans would've trusted each other enough to proceed with this project. In an ideal world )) this would work. But the Europeans have a false understanding of how others work. Supposedly, not everyone has "graduated" to the higher level of enlightenment and eschewed nationalism like our fellow Europeans have. Trying to use the European Union project as a foundation for all policies is wrong-headed because the experiences are different. By refusing to understand the real politik of others, our European friends risk being deceived by others. Furthermore, eventually coming around to a sensible solution would either take the long route of consensus or it may be too late without drastic actions occuring. Primal examples of this are the Iraqi Affair and Iran's 18 years of cat-and-mouse games with the UN's IAEA.

EDIT: While some of the leaders may be elected, they hail from the same school of thought. Hence, their views and opinions are too narrow to bring about a lively debate. It is very rare for the average to run for election in Europe. Instead, he leaves it to career politicians and other "traditional" leaders. IMHO, this is what causes the political gap not seen in the United States (relatively speaking). With such narrow views, this European project may continue unfettered without dissenters having any real input (except during violent protests). THe average European Joe needs to wake up.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Dari
Great post, dpm. You've provided some great insight.

With the United States providing a security blanket, the Europeans went on a successful multilateral adventure. The problem with their supposed nirvana is that it has never worked in history (the non-imperial rule over disparate groups of people). Now they're trying to export this idealism (communism, anyone?) to the wider world by using themselves as examples. If the US wasn't there, I seriously doubt that the Europeans would've trusted each other enough to proceed with this project. In an ideal world )) this would work. But the Europeans have a false understanding of how others work. Supposedly, not everyone has "graduated" to the higher level of enlightenment and eschewed nationalism like our fellow Europeans have. Trying to use the European Union project as a foundation for all policies is wrong-headed because the experiences are different. By refusing to understand the real politik of others, our European friends risk being deceived by others. Furthermore, eventually coming around to a sensible solution would either take the long route of consensus or it may be too late without drastic actions occuring. Primal examples of this are the Iraqi Affair and Iran's 18 years of cat-and-mouse games with the UN's IAEA.

EDIT: While some of the leaders may be elected, they hail from the same school of thought. Hence, their views and opinions are too narrow to bring about a lively debate. It is very rare for the average to run for election in Europe. Instead, he leaves it to career politicians and other "traditional" leaders. IMHO, this is what causes the political gap not seen in the United States (relatively speaking). With such narrow views, this European project may continue unfettered without dissenters having any real input (except during violent protests). THe average European Joe needs to wake up.

communism

I think your "mentor" is high on acid again

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Dari
Great post, dpm. You've provided some great insight.

With the United States providing a security blanket, the Europeans went on a successful multilateral adventure. The problem with their supposed nirvana is that it has never worked in history (the non-imperial rule over disparate groups of people). Now they're trying to export this idealism (communism, anyone?) to the wider world by using themselves as examples. If the US wasn't there, I seriously doubt that the Europeans would've trusted each other enough to proceed with this project. In an ideal world )) this would work. But the Europeans have a false understanding of how others work. Supposedly, not everyone has "graduated" to the higher level of enlightenment and eschewed nationalism like our fellow Europeans have. Trying to use the European Union project as a foundation for all policies is wrong-headed because the experiences are different. By refusing to understand the real politik of others, our European friends risk being deceived by others. Furthermore, eventually coming around to a sensible solution would either take the long route of consensus or it may be too late without drastic actions occuring. Primal examples of this are the Iraqi Affair and Iran's 18 years of cat-and-mouse games with the UN's IAEA.

EDIT: While some of the leaders may be elected, they hail from the same school of thought. Hence, their views and opinions are too narrow to bring about a lively debate. It is very rare for the average to run for election in Europe. Instead, he leaves it to career politicians and other "traditional" leaders. IMHO, this is what causes the political gap not seen in the United States (relatively speaking). With such narrow views, this European project may continue unfettered without dissenters having any real input (except during violent protests). THe average European Joe needs to wake up.

Over the top!

One could exchange EU/US and make the same charge. You may an arguement of Popular Style, but one of No Substance.

 

[Gaard]

<<I think your "mentor" is high on acid again.>>

 

[Dari]

It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

 

[burnedout]

Originally posted by: Dari
It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

Wouldn't you consider a "democratic dictatorship" as more of an oxymoron instead of a governmental system?

Yeah, I take potshots at 'em too, especially on matters of biased rhetoric. However, considering the19th and 20th century history relating to that part of the developed world, some type of utilitarian system like the EU really isn't such a bad idea. At least they can now bicker in council chambers instead of mutually destroying their own culture on the battlefield or high seas. Additionally, with a union of sorts, we aren't constrained with the constant deployment of troops or spending billions of dollars in an effort to correct the respective anomosity existing amongst each other.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

our history goes back a little bit longer also

it just seems to me that the USA is getting nervous that someone can challenge them as the only superpower

I think the WHOLE world would be nervous with Europe as a superpower. We're talking about the place that basically raped the world ten times over here. Not exactly a fantastic history, especially for the rest of the world.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Dari
It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

Heh, say who is going to be the dictator you claimed? The European Union concil whose president change every 6 month and whose Legislators are made up to ministers from member states? or the European commision whose 20 members are proposed by governments of member states and appointed for 5 years? or the Eurpoean Parliament whose President is elected for 2.5 years and the members elected for 5 years.

Oh and maybe you can enlighten us on what army your dictator is gonna use to control the European countries and its people?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Dari
It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

Maybe, but so is the US and it already has Democratic Instruments in its' Constitution. A Constitution is just a peice of paper with words on it. Many agree that the Soviet Unions Constitution was the best ever, unfortunetly it was little more than a Propoganda tool. One of the best Democracies of all time(Great Britain) doesn't even have a Constitution.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

major wars in the last 50 years, name em

Please... people remember things from more than just 50 years. The truth is that certain European countries have cause so much suffering in the world that what the US has done is petty in comparison. I like how Europeans like to say that everyone hates the US when most people have a greater hatred of European powers than the US.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Dari
It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

Maybe, but so is the US and it already has Democratic Instruments in its' Constitution. A Constitution is just a peice of paper with words on it. Many agree that the Soviet Unions Constitution was the best ever, unfortunetly it was little more than a Propoganda tool. One of the best Democracies of all time(Great Britain) doesn't even have a Constitution.

that's what I mean by democratic dictatorship. There may be a constitution, but the real power is held by a few elite who issue directive. While not as extreme as the north Korean parliament, the EU parliament has no real powers. the current working constitution doesn't even spell out how the proposed president of Europe is going to be selected/elected. The people of europe need to be more involved instead of letting career elitest dictate their future.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Originally posted by: Mrburns2007

Originally posted by: freegeeks
what the hell are you talking about

the EU is led mostly by elected politicians

and I see nothing wrong with another "superpower" in the world
IMO the most dangerous thing today is the fact that there is only one (arrogant) superpower in the world

checks and balances keeps the world turning

Great...cause europe has such a great history of knowing how to keep the peace.

yeah,

just like the USA

We have done a better job then war ravaged europe.

major wars in the last 50 years, name em

Please... people remember things from more than just 50 years. The truth is that certain European countries have cause so much suffering in the world that what the US has done is petty in comparison. I like how Europeans like to say that everyone hates the US when most people have a greater hatred of European powers than the US.

Yeah, and how about those Sumerians?

One of the reasons the EU exists is to prevent another WWII scenario. A mutual economy and currency goes far to prevent what happened generations ago. The real root of concern is competition. We don't want any.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Dari
It may be over the top. But europe is heading towards a democratic dictatorship unless democratic instruments are put into the EU constitution.

Maybe, but so is the US and it already has Democratic Instruments in its' Constitution. A Constitution is just a peice of paper with words on it. Many agree that the Soviet Unions Constitution was the best ever, unfortunetly it was little more than a Propoganda tool. One of the best Democracies of all time(Great Britain) doesn't even have a Constitution.

that's what I mean by democratic dictatorship. There may be a constitution, but the real power is held by a few elite who issue directive. While not as extreme as the north Korean parliament, the EU parliament has no real powers. the current working constitution doesn't even spell out how the proposed president of Europe is going to be selected/elected. The people of europe need to be more involved instead of letting career elitest dictate their future.

That is true everywhere/anywhere.

 

[Genesys]

Is this Armageddon? [in Biblical terms

thoughts?

and i dont care if its silly religion, i thought it was kind of a good read and rather interesting and coincedental.