The criminal justice system, racist?

[vi edit]

There's two different issues here.

One is convictions, the other is actually being a suspect/committing a crime.

If you look at your demograhics of gangs you'll see that the race breakdown definitely doesn't equal out to overall population percentages. I'd wager a paycheck that in a majority of your larger cities that blacks/minorities account for far more than 12%/25% of the gang members.

I know that there is more to crime than gang activity, but it's certainly a strong theme in a lot of crime in particular parts of many cities.

The other concern is the conviction rates once somebody is accused of a crime.

For that I have absolutely no doubt that there is a profiling/racism issue happening. When you take social economics into account, many people that commit a crime can't afford to pay for a good lawyer(if one at all). And with the ability to handpick a jury the prosecuting side is going to stack the demograhics in their favor.

But that doesn't mean that "racism" was the reason that somebody was put on trial in the first place.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

Agreed. The justice system is doing its job by serving justice, itself it is not a rascist entity. It does favor rich people though and you cannot deny that. You can get a way with murder if your lawyers are good enough.

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

crabs in a barrel.

So crack was invented by the man to suppress the poor? :roll:

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: Zorba

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

Agreed. The justice system is doing its job by serving justice, itself it is not a rascist entity. It does favor rich people though and you cannot deny that. You can get a way with murder if your lawyers are good enough.

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

crabs in a barrel.

So crack was invented by the man to suppress the poor? :roll:

Correct. enslaving people without the chains. Quite brilliant of a plan.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Zorba

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

Agreed. The justice system is doing its job by serving justice, itself it is not a rascist entity. It does favor rich people though and you cannot deny that. You can get a way with murder if your lawyers are good enough.

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

crabs in a barrel.

So crack was invented by the man to suppress the poor? :roll:

Correct. enslaving people without the chains. Quite brilliant of a plan.

Heh-heh...many years ago, there were claims that the CIA "invented" crack to help pay for the Iran-Contra gun smuggling operation...

edit: sorry, forgot teh link:
http://www.google.com/search?s...03&q=cia+crack+cocaine

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: Zorba

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

Agreed. The justice system is doing its job by serving justice, itself it is not a rascist entity. It does favor rich people though and you cannot deny that. You can get a way with murder if your lawyers are good enough.

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

crabs in a barrel.

So crack was invented by the man to suppress the poor? :roll:

Correct. enslaving people without the chains. Quite brilliant of a plan.

Heh-heh...many years ago, there were claims that the CIA "invented" crack to help pay for the Iran-Contra gun smuggling operation...

edit: sorry, forgot teh link:
http://www.google.com/search?s...03&q=cia+crack+cocaine

whether they were really involved or not you can debate forever the cover up has been done with. Rich white men have a history of smuggling and bootlegging in this country. How likely is it that poor ghetto folk were bringing 40 ton shipments of raw drugs into this country. Damn near impossible.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
whether they were really involved or not you can debate forever the cover up has been done with. Rich white men have a history of smuggling and bootlegging in this country. How likely is it that poor ghetto folk were bringing 40 ton shipments of raw drugs into this country. Damn near impossible.

Who profited from it and what their motives were are two entirely different things. You think their motivation was to enslave black people. I think their motivation was to make a lot of money.

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Absolutely not, but it's useful to know whether it's a black problem or it's a poor problem.

 

[Craig234]

There's definitely and obviously a situation where a higher rate of committing crime among blacks leads to a higher incarceration rate that's just.

Here are some questions for you to consider:

- Eyewitness testimony is widely viewed as one of the weakest links in the trial system, overly persuasive to juries for its high rate of error. Science has shown that people have a much harder time distinguishing between the appearance of other races, compared to their own they're more used to. So the error rate of whites identifying blacks will be higher than same-race identification.

Because the most common race in the US is white, this will lead to a higher rate of error for blacks at trial, effectively discriminating against blacks, without any intentional wrongdoing.

- While some increased rate of black incarceration of blacks is just because of the higher rate of crime, is the higher rate that exists proportionate - or is it even higher than the higher crime rate explains?

- There are specific issues not addressed in the OP - for example huge discrepencies in the sentences without any rational basis between crack cocaine (blacks) and powder cocaine (whites).

- Consider the larger 'social justice' issue, of the reasons why blacks are more likely to commit crimes - with a major factor being their economic disadvantage caused by a century of racism that prevented their families from increasing in education and wealth during that century as whites were able to, directly impacting the descendants today.

- There's some bias introduced against innocent black people by their being a member of a group who is seen as more likely to commit crime. Would *you* like to go to trial being seen as a member of a group that's far higher than average in committing crimes?

 

[fskimospy]

Its obvious that our justice system is at least somewhat inherently racist. You can claim that its the fault of individual actors, but the overall statistical trends are pretty obvious. Black people are far more likely (statistically) to be convicted of rape if the victim is white then a white person, specifically in certain states and locales. For years until rape was removed from the list of capital offences blacks were hugely more likely then whites to be sentenced to death for rape. Nowadays black people on average serve sentences that are much much longer then whites for drug offenses, etc.

It is true that the recent relaxation of crack posession sentencing guidelines will alleviate some of this problem, it certainly won't eliminate it. I mean this change just happened a few days back... it's not like our system was racist before but now that we changed one rule it's suddenly okay.

Numerous studies have been done on exactly this, they are actually pretty easy to find.

 

[Ns1]

- Consider the larger 'social justice' issue, of the reasons why blacks are more likely to commit crimes - with a major factor being their economic disadvantage caused by a century of racism that prevented their families from increasing in education and wealth during that century as whites were able to, directly impacting the descendants today.

How do you explain the other minority groups then, who have also faced discrimination and 'broke through'

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Ns1

- Consider the larger 'social justice' issue, of the reasons why blacks are more likely to commit crimes - with a major factor being their economic disadvantage caused by a century of racism that prevented their families from increasing in education and wealth during that century as whites were able to, directly impacting the descendants today.

How do you explain the other minority groups then, who have also faced discrimination and 'broke through'

I think that's an excellent question.

I don't have the answer, but here's a bit of speculation on one:

The experience of black Americans, literally enslaved for most of their history in America, families often broken up, followed by a century of racism, led to cultural damage and harms not suffered at all in the same degree by other races in America, who had a cohesion and identity apart from the discrimination, even in the case of groups such as the Irish in the late 19th century where there were 'no Irish or dogs allowed' signs, or impoverished Asian groups who have a cultural cohesiveness and work together in the modern era.

But it's obviously a question worth looking at, not so much for blame as for solutions, and I think a lot has been done to research it but frankly, I'm pretty uninformed on the topic.

 

[Vic]

Racist? Perhaps. In certain areas of the country, more than likely.
However, my opinion is that the criminal justice system is not so much blatantly racist as it is completely economically unfair.
Quite simply, the government uses the justice system to keep poor people poor. Can't pay a fine? Go to jail, have your drivers license suspended so you can't get to work anymore, and here's an extra helping of additional fines and fees to go on top of that, just to keep you down for good. Can't afford a lawyer? Here, have this worthless public defender. And so forth and so on. Our justice system seems purpose-built for sucking in poor people, frequently for the smallest of offenses, and then enslaving them for their entire lives.
And, unfortunately, blacks are more likely than whites in this country to be poor. I would love to see a study that breaks down incidence of incarceration according to ecconomic class, and then put that side by side with race statistics. Should be interesting.

 

[Zorba]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Its obvious that our justice system is at least somewhat inherently racist. You can claim that its the fault of individual actors, but the overall statistical trends are pretty obvious. Black people are far more likely (statistically) to be convicted of rape if the victim is white then a white person, specifically in certain states and locales. For years until rape was removed from the list of capital offences blacks were hugely more likely then whites to be sentenced to death for rape. Nowadays black people on average serve sentences that are much much longer then whites for drug offenses, etc.

It is true that the recent relaxation of crack posession sentencing guidelines will alleviate some of this problem, it certainly won't eliminate it. I mean this change just happened a few days back... it's not like our system was racist before but now that we changed one rule it's suddenly okay.

Numerous studies have been done on exactly this, they are actually pretty easy to find.

Do you think this is because they are black? Or because blacks are more likely to be poor and can't afford a good lawyer?

I would really like to see sentencing/conviction rates by race & income, I think that would be much more telling than just by race.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Zorba

Do you think this is because they are black? Or because blacks are more likely to be poor and can't afford a good lawyer?

I would really like to see sentencing/conviction rates by race & income, I think that would be much more telling than just by race.

I don't have the studies at my fingertips or anything, but if I remember right the rate at which the death penalty was given to blacks for raping white women varied hugely by state, with (you guessed it) the south far ahead of the pack. Those rates varying by geographic areas with histories of other kinds of racism is pretty strong evidence for such.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Until we can convince poor families that there is value in getting a useful education, it is a lost cause.

I have a daughter-in-law that used to teach in an inner-city school. Many of her experiences with both parents and students are incredible for their conspicuous lack of interest.

 

[Siddhartha]

The question should be "do minorities get a higher percentage of conviction and harsher sentences for similar crimes?"

In the last 10 years, I have read articles that stated that minorities were more likely to go to jail, spend more time in jail, and get the death penality for similar crimes.

Ten years is a long time and I have not read anytihing on the subject lately. I will spend time researching this and post links.

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Until we can convince poor families that there is value in getting a useful education, it is a lost cause.

I have a daughter-in-law that used to teach in an inner-city school. Many of her experiences with both parents and students are incredible for their conspicuous lack of interest.

This is much too simplistic. It takes much more than just education to help people in these circumstances. They do not grab hold of education due to many factors, but generally speaking, the sense of devaluation.

Quite honestly, if I had to go to the shitty schools that most urban minorities have to attend (or people from any poor area), I would not want much to go either. the schools in the richer areas tend to be financed much better than those in the poorer areas.

 

[jackschmittusa]

Not too simplistic I think, but a basic starting point.

Did you ever stop to consider how some of those "shitty schools" you refer to got that way? Budget dollars going to repair vandalism inside and out. Limited book budgets strained by defacing, damaging, losing books. Bright, enthusiastic teachers, eager to make a difference; thoroughly discouraged after a couple of years by uncaring parents and students with no motivation, no discipline, and no social skills, uninterested in learning; quit or transfer. Education budget wasted on security and higher insurance premiums.

the people of a community need to see their schools as assets and value education. They need to prepare kids to function in the structured environment of a school. They need to support the teachers, provide encouragement and assistance at home. It is the parents that need push the idea that a quality education is a path to gainful employment so that their children will not have to depend on the fruits of crime for sustenance.

I think that if you don't start at this most basic level, few other plans will bear fruit on a large scale.

 

[StageLeft]

Surely some level of racism, or stereotyping (not that all stereotypes are without merit), but there are more blacks in prison than whites because they commit more crimes, I'm positive of it and I think it is the vast majority of the reason they are disproportionately represented in prison as opposed to any systemic sentencing.

It is the parents that need push the idea that a quality education is a path to gainful employment so that their children will not have to depend on the fruits of crime for sustenance.

Of course. It needs to start at the family. When you have the vast majority of black mothers under the age of 30 bearing children out of wedlock and most black sons brought up in a house without a father, more likely from poverty as well, the entire local culture is not the same as the one a white kid in the same city is likely to be brought up in. Education is not celebrated to the same extent, expectations are lower and people rise to these, so you have a quicker jump to crime, greater liklihood of teen pregnancy, highschool drop out, etc. and the cycle continues.

In Rochester, the worst school district (which does have a great deal of minorities) gets a TINY bit more money than the best one (suburb, mostly majority students) and yet graduation rates are less than 50% in the inner city and high 90's in the suburb. The difference is not money sent at schools, it's either innate student ability or the environment in which they're raised. The schools can do only so much. If you have a terrible family life, chances are it's not an environment well suited to aspirations for a great job, college, etc.

 

[beyoku]

Many many of those black people in prison are "non violent drug offenders" that got caught up with rockefeller drug laws.
Every study that i have read basically claims all races use pretty much the same amount of drugs.....The difference cant be measured because of the margin for error. So according to the studies black people use no more/less drugs than white people. OTOH black people are arrested far more than whites for that same drug usage. And the whole crack vs cocaine thing puts it in black and white. Its not that there is twice the sentence there is a 100x's difference. Literally you can have 5 grams of Crack or you can have 500! grams of cocaine! 5 to 500!!!??? That alone should turn some heads.

 

[OokiiNeko]

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

Finally, someone "gets it".

You really should read Marx, if you haven`t already. A lot of people drone on and on about the communism part, but I think with Communism he was trying to setup something, anything, that might be better than the socio-political economic systems he was seeing in his time.

His real message to the masses, the one drowned out by "socialism this, communism that" is this, "The rich will fvck the poor every chance they get."

Very few people "get it".