The criminal justice system, racist?

[Ns1]

ok, so I'm sure everybody here has heard the debate: "the criminal justice system is racist against minorities", with such statistics as...

For example, statistics show that more than one-fourth of all black males and 16 percent of Latinos can expect to spend time in prison during their lifetime, while only 4 percent of white males ever go to prison. African-Americans make up 12 percent of the U.S. population, but they compose about half of all prison inmates and 40 percent of those sentenced to death. Even more startling, a third of all African-American males aged 20-29 are right now either locked up, on probation, or on parole.

http://www.crf-usa.org/brown50th/color_of_justice.htm (quickest link I could find)

I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

to backup my statements, I present to you these facts: these are crime reports from the USC area, which are emailed to me on a regular basis. I copypasta to you.

SUSPECT DESCRIPTION (provided by complainant):
Suspect 1: Male, African-American, 21-23 years old, 6?0, 220 pounds,
light skin, wearing a black ski cap.
Suspect 2: Male, African-American, 22 years old, 6?1, and 220
pounds.
SUSPECT VEHICLE: Blue unknown 4door, no further description.


SUSPECT DESCRIPTION (provided by complainant)
Suspect: Male, African-American, 20 years old, 6?0, stocky build,
wearing a white long sleeve t-shirt.

Suspect # 1: Male, Hispanic, 5 foot 8 inches tall, 180 pounds, 22-23
years old, shaved head, wearing a blue and white jacket, blue jeans, and
white tennis shoes.
Suspect # 2: Male, Hispanic, 6 foot 4 inches tall, 240 pounds, 22-23
years old, black hair, white tee-shirt, tan shorts, white shoes.

SUSPECT DESCRIPTION (provided by complainant)
Male, Hispanic, shaved head, 25-30 years old, 5 feet 8 inches tall, 215
pounds, wearing a black long sleeve denim shirt, dark shorts.


Suspect # 1: Male, Black, 6 feet 2 inches tall, 200 pounds, 20-22
years old, black corn row style hair, brown eyes, wearing a white
T-shirt and blue jeans.


Suspect #1 Male Hispanic, 25-to-30 years old, 5?10 foot, 160 pounds,
long hair, go-tee, white tee-shirt with blue stripes, black pants, and
white tennis shoes.

Suspect # 1: Male, Black, 5 foot 4 inches tall, 120 pounds, 15 years
old, black hair, brown eyes, wearing a purple T-shirt, blue jeans, white
shoes, and had facial stubble.

Suspect # 2: Male, Black, 5 foot 4 inches tall, 120 pounds, 15 years
old, black hair, brown eyes, wearing blue sweat shirt, blue jeans with a
stud earring on his right ear.

SUSPECT DESCRIPTION (provided by complainant):

Suspect # 1: Male, African American, 5 foot 11 inches tall, 145-150
pounds, 20-25 years old, black hair, brown eyes, wearing a black hooded
sweat-shirt and dark color jeans.

Suspect # 2: Female, African American 5 foot 4 inches tall, 130
pounds, 18-25 years old, black hair, black eyes, wearing blue sweater
and dark tight jeans.


Suspect # 1: Male, Hispanic, short, 180 pounds, 23-25 years old, black
hair, wearing a black long sleeve T-shirt, and dark shorts.

Suspect #2: Male Hispanic or Black, short, 180 pounds, 23-25 years old,
black hair, wearing a black hoody, grey or black pants or long shorts.

Suspect # 3: Male, Hispanic or black no further description.

Suspect # 1: Male, 6 feet to 6 feet 3 inches tall, wearing long sleeve
dark clothing and gloves.

That goes back 2 months. Only 1 suspect description did not include race.

Racist, or "a statistical sample"?

Discuss.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Ns1




I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

/debate

 

[ATLien247]

How can the system be racist? If anything, it's the people that work within the system that are racist. Hell, even the information in your list of suspects was obtained from the complainant, not law enforcement.

Not to thread crap, but the issue is not who is going to jail/prison, but why? Your list of suspects, I would assume, are all involved in property or violent crime. A lot of people go to jail/prison for petty drug crimes, which definitely skew the statistics.

 

[FoBoT]

chicken > egg
or
egg > chicken


<shrugs>

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: ATLien247
How can the system be racist? If anything, it's the people that work within the system that are racist. Hell, even the information in your list of suspects was obtained from the complainant, not law enforcement.

Not to thread crap, but the issue is not who is going to jail/prison, but why? Your list of suspects, I would assume, are all involved in property or violent crime. A lot of people go to jail/prison for petty drug crimes, which definitely skew the statistics.

Most of the ones I posted were robberies. and by robbery it's usually "give me your stuff" and run

 

[rivan]

I almost completely agree with you.

The only thing that gives me pause is in trial by jury, where appearance will *certainly* enter into how jurors are predisposed for or against someone. I have known people who are overtly racist. I have known people who are not. Almost everyone I know will judge people to a certain extent based on how they appear; some will judge on skin color, some will judge on clothing, some on hair style, some on your manners and grammar, some on demeanor.

I think a person of any color or background, dressed conservatively and well groomed, who speaks clearly and intelligently, and shows respect toward the court, will fare largely better than the stereotypical "urban" youth that comes to court in drooping pants, three days out from their last shower and erects the facade of having nothing to fear from the court.

The reality is, however, those urban youths are statistically more likely to be non-white.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Ns1

I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

How do you know that? A couple of crime reports from USC don't really mean anything.

I'd be curious to see:
- the statistics you mentioned in your post controlled for geographical location and income of the offender
- statistics on conviction/acquittal rates
- statistics on frequency of application of the death penalty
- statistics on drug use by race

One interesting incongruity is the sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine vs powdered cocaine.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: rivan
I almost completely agree with you.

The only thing that gives me pause is in trial by jury, where appearance will *certainly* enter into how jurors are predisposed for or against someone. I have known people who are overtly racist. I have known people who are not. Almost everyone I know will judge people to a certain extent based on how they appear; some will judge on skin color, some will judge on clothing, some on hair style, some on your manners and grammar, some on demeanor.

I think a person of any color or background, dressed conservatively and well groomed, who speaks clearly and intelligently, and shows respect toward the court, will fare largely better than the stereotypical "urban" youth that comes to court in drooping pants, three days out from their last shower and erects the facade of having nothing to fear from the court.

The reality is, however, those urban youths are statistically more likely to be non-white.

And are statistically more likely to be involved in criminal activities.


IMO, the system is not racist, although some of the people may be, judges, prosecutors, lawyers, etc, but that's possibly due to having to process so many minorities who are charged with various crimes and usually found guilty.
Remember, stereotypes exist for a reason...they're usually based on actual facts.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Ns1

I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

How do you know that? A couple of crime reports from USC don't really mean anything.

I'd be curious to see:
- the statistics you mentioned in your post controlled for geographical location and income of the offender
- statistics on conviction/acquittal rates
- statistics on frequency of application of the death penalty
- statistics on drug use by race

One interesting incongruity is the sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine vs powdered cocaine.

If you have the data feel free to present it I just posted a trend that I've noticed over the past 3 years

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: rivan

The only thing that gives me pause is in trial by jury, where appearance will *certainly* enter into how jurors are predisposed for or against someone. I have known people who are overtly racist. I have known people who are not. Almost everyone I know will judge people to a certain extent based on how they appear; some will judge on skin color, some will judge on clothing, some on hair style, some on your manners and grammar, some on demeanor.

I know if I were black or latino and were on trial, I wouldn't want the OP to be on my jury. :Q

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Ns1

I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

How do you know that? A couple of crime reports from USC don't really mean anything.

I'd be curious to see:
- the statistics you mentioned in your post controlled for geographical location and income of the offender
- statistics on conviction/acquittal rates
- statistics on frequency of application of the death penalty
- statistics on drug use by race

One interesting incongruity is the sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine vs powdered cocaine.

If you have the data feel free to present it

I'm not the one who is jumping to conclusions here, am I?

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: rivan

The only thing that gives me pause is in trial by jury, where appearance will *certainly* enter into how jurors are predisposed for or against someone. I have known people who are overtly racist. I have known people who are not. Almost everyone I know will judge people to a certain extent based on how they appear; some will judge on skin color, some will judge on clothing, some on hair style, some on your manners and grammar, some on demeanor.

I know if I were black or latino and were on trial, I wouldn't want the OP to be on my jury. :Q

hah. I'd only be worried if you were guilty

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Ns1

I think claims of discrimination are a crock of shit. they make up a large percentage of the prison system because they do a large percentage of the crime.

How do you know that? A couple of crime reports from USC don't really mean anything.

I'd be curious to see:
- the statistics you mentioned in your post controlled for geographical location and income of the offender
- statistics on conviction/acquittal rates
- statistics on frequency of application of the death penalty
- statistics on drug use by race

One interesting incongruity is the sentencing guidelines for crack cocaine vs powdered cocaine.

If you have the data feel free to present it

I'm not the one who is jumping to conclusions here, am I?

Based on my experiences and on what is reported to me in MY area, I believe my statement is true.


<-- lawn chair. :beer:. popcorn.

 

[BoomerD]

Every week, the local newspaper posts pics of everyone arrested for car theft over the past week. Usually, more than 50% of them are hispanic...that leaves less than 50% to represent all the other ethnic groups...including (usually one or two of Indian decent)

edit: Here's last Saturday's round-up:
http://www.modbee.com/2071/story/139025.html

10 out of 18 have hispanic surnames.

 

[jjj807]

well if you are caught with crack cocaine, it is double the penalty than with being caught with powder cocaine. Crack cocaine is prevalent in the African American community and is a huge problem.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

I don't think the justice system is inherently racist. But there is strong evidence that it is part of a larger system to keep people of color down. I.E. The introduction of crack cocaine in the 80's to urban black/latino communities in an effort to destroy the family unit. I know that nobody in the ghetto has poppy fields or coco plants. The people truly profiting from the drug trade in this country are definitely white.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: rivan
I almost completely agree with you.

The only thing that gives me pause is in trial by jury, where appearance will *certainly* enter into how jurors are predisposed for or against someone. I have known people who are overtly racist. I have known people who are not. Almost everyone I know will judge people to a certain extent based on how they appear; some will judge on skin color, some will judge on clothing, some on hair style, some on your manners and grammar, some on demeanor.

I think a person of any color or background, dressed conservatively and well groomed, who speaks clearly and intelligently, and shows respect toward the court, will fare largely better than the stereotypical "urban" youth that comes to court in drooping pants, three days out from their last shower and erects the facade of having nothing to fear from the court.

The reality is, however, those urban youths are statistically more likely to be non-white.

If they have a lawyer worthy of the title lawyer then they won't be sitting in front of the jury in anything other than a suit so I doubt dress enters into it.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: jjj807
well if you are caught with crack cocaine, it is double the penalty than with being caught with powder cocaine. Crack cocaine is prevalent in the African American community and is a huge problem.

Actually, that was just overturned. Judges are now given more leeway in sentencing these kinds of cases.
http://www.law.com/jsp/article...367475795&rss=newswire

 

[mordantmonkey]

socio-economic factors are much more important in crime statistics.
that being said is the socio-economic structure of our country racist?

well, have you driven through a ghetto lately?

 

[Eeezee]

The justice system is definitely racist in some parts of the country; set up a black man in Georgia with a white jury and you're sure to get a conviction. That's just how it is in some parts of our country. Georgia still has segregated proms for Christ's sake (all of the white kids host their own prom, the black kids host their own prom; if the school hosts a prom, only one race ends up going because the other race doesn't want to be there)

In places like California and most of the New England area, racism is minimal. In these places it is not race that is causing crimes, it is economic status. Of the blacks in LA who commit crimes, most of them are poor. Whites and Mexicans do the same thing; low economic status increases crime rates.

 

[BoomerD]

So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

 

[mordantmonkey]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

since when did cause and effect account for morality?

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim

Originally posted by: BoomerD
So socio-economic factors make it ok to break the laws?

Of course not. But in any country not just america...the people with there backs to the wall, who have nothing, will do whatever it takes to eat/survive. Thats human nature.

I understand that, and it also explains why so many poor (usually minorities) are in the legal system. Still doesn't make it right, nor does it make the system racist for prosecuting them for their crimes.

Agreed. The justice system is doing its job by serving justice, itself it is not a rascist entity. It does favor rich people though and you cannot deny that. You can get a way with murder if your lawyers are good enough.

However its hard to argue that the lives of these poorer people aren't somewhat rigged. Especially since the advent of crack cocaine. The justice system is part of a larger system that creates cyclical spiral downward for these people and it was created by design.

crabs in a barrel.