The CREIL effect :

[William Gaatjes]

Can somebody explain the creil effect to me in lay mans speech ?
CREIL stands for : Coherent Raman effect on incoherent light.


I think i understand it but i want to make sure.

http://jean.moretbailly.free.fr/JacquesMB/Moret-Bailly_Apeiron-2.pdf


Here is some text from the pdf :

This paper describes applications of the CREIL effect developed since the publication of papers 1-3.
The CREIL effect is an interaction between electromagnetic beams refracted by a medium obeying conditions set by G. L. Lamb Jr (4). This interaction increases the entropy of the set of beams by frequency shifts, usually a decrease of the frequencies of the light beams and an increase of the frequencies of the radio beams. Just as ordinary refraction, the CREIL is space-coherent, so that it does not blur the images, and it is parametric, so that the refracting medium is not excited permanently.
Using ordinary time-incoherent light, Lamb's conditions “length of the EM pulses (time-coherence) shorter than all relevant time constants” impose the
use of a low pressure gas (collisional time longer than some nanoseconds), and the existence of a Raman resonance in the 100 MHz range.
The CREIL explains completely the spectra of the quasars supposing that they are micro-quasars transformed into accreting neutron stars while they leave their galaxies, that the “Very Red Objects”, observed close to the quasars have an anomalously large redshift. It explains the “anomalous acceleration” of the Pioneer 10 and 11 probes beyond 10 AU by a transfer of energy from the solar light to the radio during their refraction in excited atomic hydrogen produced by a cooling of the solar wind, the same transfer explaining that a part of the anisotropy of the microwave background is bound to the ecliptic.
Section 2 sets properties which must be fulfilled by a light-matter interaction able to be confused with a Doppler effect.
Section 3 shows that the propagation of light in a medium whose excitation by absorption induces a CREIL effect produces not only a spectrum, but a structuring of the medium too.
Section 4 shows that a particular structuring explains the pearl necklace of SN1987A.

Structuring of a medium which, absorbing light, becomes active in CREIL.
Atomic hydrogen has convenient Raman resonances in its first excited state. Consider hydrogen atomic, but not excited, at a temperature of the order of 20 000 K.
In a region (called absorbing or “A”) where there is few energy at the Lyman α frequency, there is few atoms in the first excited state, nearly no CREIL effect: this region absorbs light normally.
In a region (called redshifting or “R”) where there is much energy around the Lyman α frequency, much hydrogen is pumped to the CREIL-efficient 2P level, so that, before a full absorption, the spectrum is shifted off the Lyman line. Thus, the absorption is permanent, the shift is permanent. During the shift, the emitted or absorbed lines get the width of the shift, so that they are too wide to be easily observed.
Thus, there are shells of type A separated by R shells.
Propagating, the light jumps from a R region to a A region if the Ly α pumping becomes impossible because either there is no more hydrogen or because there is an absorption line in the spectrum. It may jump from A to R by small other type redshifts: by higher excited states or by a decay of these states to the first excited state. Leaving a A shell appears difficult, so that the A shells are generally thicker than the R shells.
4. Periodicities. Suppose that there are only the Ly α and β lines. If a Lyman spectrum was regularly absorbed , the redshift which corresponds to a displacement of the beta line to the alpha corresponds to a multiplication of the initial β frequency by να/νβ=108/128 (Lamb's and spin corrections neglected). Each time a newly written beta line is shifted to the alpha, the frequencies of the previously written lines is multiplied by 108/128, so that one obtains a frequency multiplied by (108/128)p after p shifts. Set q=3p; the frequencies are multiplied by (108/128)p=[(108/128){1/3}]q=(0.94494)q. All values of q are not valuable ! A similar computation from the alpha and gamma gives a multiplication by ((0.8)1/4)r=(0.94574)r. The numerical factor is the same with a 1/1000 relative precision, so that q and r may be identified, mixed, keeping almost all values. keeping the log, a periodicity observed by Karlsson in the spectra of the quasars is obtained.
Observing the galaxies, Tifft and Napier observed much shorter periodicities. It seems that they may be explained by a similar computation using the Lyman pumping of molecular, cold hydrogen. Compared to the observed value, 72 km/s, the fundamental computed shift 81 km/s is too high if the log law is not taken into account. An other value, 36km/s, may result from a moiré effect.
Thus, the galaxies are surrounded by shells, just as the quasars, but these shells correspond to much smaller shifts, in cold hydrogen.

The pearl necklace of supernova SN1987A.
Suppose that the kernel of SN1987A is a neutron star heated by the accretion of a cloud of hydrogen less dense than the clouds which surround the quasars, so that the hot spots are smaller.
Close to the kernel, hydrogen is fully ionised, any hydrogen atom absorbing energy to be ionised. Thus the temperature is high, and the gas is transparent.
A combination of the protons and the electrons is difficult because the pressure is low; it requires a low temperature, so that the obtained hydrogen is not strongly excited. The UV light pumps the atoms, producing a CREIL effect which renews the energy at the Lyman alpha frequency, so that, a relatively thin spherical “R” shell appears.
The state 2P being strongly excited, a strong superradiant emission appears in directions where the thickness of excited medium is the largest, that is tangentially to the sphere. This emission limits the redshift, so that the light is fully absorbed at the Lyman α frequency.
The final result is a full transfer of a wide band energy coming from the kernel to a tangential, wide band superradiant emission. In a superradiant emission, the competition of the modes selects a particular set of modes: the pearls appear just as in a multimode laser.
6. Conclusion
The CREIL effect is a powerful tool in astrophysics. It allows to explain more and more observations with only trivial hypothesis

 

[William Gaatjes]

I was hoping for some reply to discuss... :'(

Because when i read it, it explains that under rare special conditions here on earth but not so special conditions in space, a red shift occurs for the visible wave length and a blue shift for the rf part of the em spectrum.

Because my question would then be : If a cloud of hydrogen can cause red shift as proposed by the CREIL effect, what would happen if i have a light source behind 2 hydrogen clouds where in both the CREIL effect occurs of course separately from each other ? Would i then experience as viewer a cumulative red shift effect in the visible range or not ? Because then this would mean the further you look in space, the more often you encounter the CREIL effect and the more often you have redshift. Also known as the cosmological red shift.

Some people might say : "wait a minute, the universe is not a homogeneous formation" . And they are right, but i think (because it is common on large datasets)there is a lot of data massage going on when receiving data. And i think that if all stars systems and galaxies would be examined and compared in raw data, then there would be a lot of discrepancies. On average all galaxies seem to move away form us, but i wonder if that is the case if the raw data is examined. If this is the case ,then this would explain my suspicion that the redshift is universal but not a constant.


The problem is that in empty space it is cold. But there is more and more proof that the universe is more of a plasma nature. Plasma is not the fourth state of matter. It might very well be the first or fundamental state of matter. And radiation heat can be created a lot higher then the average temperature. Look at the corona from the sun for example millions of degrees celcius or Kelvin when compared to the surface of the sun(~5700K). If a similar mechanism can increase the temperature at specific parts in space(which i admit i do not know how, i can only guess), then the needed temperature level for the CREIL effect would be there. It is becoming more clear that there is a very strong magnetic field present everywhere where matter is clustered in the universe and of course from plasma flows in hot regions of gas. This could account for the needed magnetic field.

After all this writing, i would ask : Could the cumulative CREIL effects if this mechanism really exists, explain the cosmological red shift ?

EDIT:
My other question would be : Can this also explain the Cosmic microwave background radiation ?

 

[William Gaatjes]

I forgot to add this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

I know wikipedia is not the only source of information to be used because the writers of the articles are sometimes a bit biased.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation

But this i find interesting and should be easy to verify later on.

Precise measurements of cosmic background radiation are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. The CMBR has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.725 K, thus the spectrum peaks in the microwave range frequency of 160.2 GHz, corresponding to a 1.9 mm wavelength. This holds if you measure the intensity per unit frequency, as in Planck's law. If instead you measure it per unit wavelength, using Wien's law, the peak will be at 1.06 mm corresponding to a frequency of 283 GHz.

The glow is highly uniform in all directions, but shows a very specific pattern equal to that expected if a fairly uniformly distributed hot gas is expanded to the current size of the universe. In particular, the spatial power spectrum (how much difference is observed versus how far apart the regions are on the sky) contains small anisotropies, or irregularities, which vary with the size of the region examined. They have been measured in detail, and match what would be expected if small thermal variations, generated by quantum fluctuations of matter in a very tiny space, had expanded to the size of the observable universe we see today. This is still a very active field of study, with scientists seeking both better data (for example, the Planck spacecraft) and better interpretations of the initial conditions of expansion.

Although many different processes might produce the general form of a black body spectrum, no model other than the Big Bang has yet explained the fluctuations. As a result, most cosmologists consider the Big Bang model of the universe to be the best explanation for the CMBR.

That fits nicely with my suspicion where the red shift is not a constant and if my interpretation of the CREIL effect is correct.

 

[DeathRayLoveMachine]

The paper has nothing to do with either CMBR or redshifting. It tries to explain how light sources you would expect to produce incoherent light end up producing coherent light instead, and proposes a few astronomical objects as examples.

 

[William Gaatjes]

The paper has nothing to do with either CMBR or redshifting. It tries to explain how light sources you would expect to produce incoherent light end up producing coherent light instead, and proposes a few astronomical objects as examples.

Partially right. The spectrum also changes. Hence the red shift.

3. Structuring of a medium which, absorbing light, becomes active in CREIL.

Atomic hydrogen has convenient Raman resonances in its first excited state. Consider hydrogen atomic, but not excited, at a temperature of the order of 20 000 K.
In a region (called absorbing or “A&#8221 where there is few energy at the Lyman α frequency, there is few atoms in the first excited state, nearly no CREIL effect: this region absorbs light normally.
In a region (called redshifting or “R&#8221 where there is much energy around the Lyman α frequency, much hydrogen is pumped to the CREIL-efficient 2P level, so that, before a full absorption, the spectrum is shifted off the Lyman line. Thus, the absorption is permanent, the shift is permanent. During the shift, the emitted or absorbed lines get the width of the shift, so that they are too wide to be easily observed.

 

[DeathRayLoveMachine]

OK it has nothing to do with COSMIC redshifting. The "redshift" they mention is due to the Raman effect, which is a kind of inelastic scattering. It has no relation to the Hubble redshifting observed in distant stars or galaxy.

The CMBR is already very adequately explained by the Big Bang theory, blackbody radiation, and whatever the fuck is causing the universe to expand (you already posted and bolded a section that explains this very well).

 

[William Gaatjes]

This is also very interesting : The wolf effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_effect

In optics, two non-Lambertian sources that emit beamed energy can interact in a way that causes a shift in the spectral lines. It is analogous to a pair of tuning forks with similar frequencies (pitches), connected together mechanically with a sounding board; there is a strong coupling that results in the resonant frequencies getting "dragged down" in pitch. The Wolf Effect requires that the waves from the sources are partially coherent - the wavefronts being partially in phase. Laser light is coherent while candle light is incoherent, each photon having random phase. It can produce either redshifts or blueshifts, depending on the observer's point of view, but is redshifted when the observer is head-on.[3]

For two sources interacting while separated by a vacuum, the Wolf effect cannot produce shifts greater than the linewidth of the source spectral line, since it is a position-dependent change in the distribution of the source spectrum, not a method by which new frequencies may be generated. However, when interacting with a medium, in combination with effects such as Brillouin scattering it may produce distorted shifts greater than the linewidth of the source.

 

[William Gaatjes]

OK it has nothing to do with COSMIC redshifting. The "redshift" they mention is due to the Raman effect, which is a kind of inelastic scattering. It has no relation to the Hubble redshifting observed in distant stars or galaxy.

The CMBR is already very adequately explained by the Big Bang theory, blackbody radiation, and whatever the fuck is causing the universe to expand (you already posted and bolded a section that explains this very well).

Well, i doubt that. Because the current measurements with new technology and the theory do more then often not comply with each other. And a lot of the old theories such as the big bang theories are based when not much was known about the universe and instead of looking at the theories again with current telescope and radio receiver technology, there are serious issues with the traditional big bang model. But instead of doing real science as to improve the model or discard the model, the traditional model is sustained. It is the shoehorn technique.

We will have to wait and see because we will need a telescope the size of an aircraft carrier far outside the solar system to do better measurements.

And that is something that will not happen soon...

EDIT:

Hubble redshifting is the relation between redshift and distance. And the farther Hubble looked , the more redshifting it seemed, but there where anomolies(also discovered by other astronomers) that could not be accounted for as explained in the wiki besided using the quantum fluctuations. Hubble red shifting is similar as doppler red shifting.

IIRC Normally, a photon does not change in wavelength and does not decrease in energy. But light looses intensity over distance because the individual photons get absorbed. But i think i forget something here...
Photons only decrease or increase in wavelength when absorbed and retransmitted for as far as i know.
But because of the expanding universe, the wavelength is stretched as proposed by relativity as used by Hubble. At the time (1930s)very popular.

 

[Mark R]

This effect is not something that has made it into mainstream astrophysics. By and large, the only person who has written anything about it is it's discoverer, Jean Moret-Bailey. And, only highly 'fringe' journals have published his work.

I'm not qualified to say whether it is legitimate or not; I am unable to understand the mechanism of its action from the descriptions I have read. But, even if this hypothesis is correct, few astrophysicists appear to accept it.

The proposed result of the CREIL effect is a exchange in energy between photons of different energies passing through an excited medium. High energy photons lose energy (e.g. visible light photons become 'redshifted'), and low energy photons gain energy (microwave background photons become 'blueshifted').

The proposer of the CREIL effect proposes several possibilities that follow from it:
1. Quasars, highly active radio sources, are believed to be extremely distant and ancient due to very heavily red-shifted spectra - and by implication, that they are immensely powerful in order to be so 'bright' at such distance. If, as seems plausible, the surrounding extra-stellar space supports the CREIL effect, then this redshift may, in part, be due to CREIL - and not purely due to Hubble expansion. This, therefore, radically changes the imputed properties of quasars.

2. The CREIL effect, because of its reliance of the hyperfine splitting of energy states, shows some degree of quantization. It has been recognised for some time, that very active astronomical objects appear to have partially quantized redshifts. If the only source of redshift is assumed to be Hubble expansion, the implication is that these bodies are arranged in concentric spherical shells, with the earth at the center. This conclusion is troubling. There have been a number of attempts to explain this apparent anomaly, with various degrees of success. The discoverer of the CREIL effect asserts that the preferred CREIL 'redshifts' match the observed quantization.

 

[William Gaatjes]

This effect is not something that has made it into mainstream astrophysics. By and large, the only person who has written anything about it is it's discoverer, Jean Moret-Bailey. And, only highly 'fringe' journals have published his work.

I'm not qualified to say whether it is legitimate or not; I am unable to understand the mechanism of its action from the descriptions I have read. But, even if this hypothesis is correct, few astrophysicists appear to accept it.

The proposed result of the CREIL effect is a exchange in energy between photons of different energies passing through an excited medium. High energy photons lose energy (e.g. visible light photons become 'redshifted'), and low energy photons gain energy (microwave background photons become 'blueshifted').

The proposer of the CREIL effect proposes several possibilities that follow from it:
1. Quasars, highly active radio sources, are believed to be extremely distant and ancient due to very heavily red-shifted spectra - and by implication, that they are immensely powerful in order to be so 'bright' at such distance. If, as seems plausible, the surrounding extra-stellar space supports the CREIL effect, then this redshift may, in part, be due to CREIL - and not purely due to Hubble expansion. This, therefore, radically changes the imputed properties of quasars.

2. The CREIL effect, because of its reliance of the hyperfine splitting of energy states, shows some degree of quantization. It has been recognised for some time, that very active astronomical objects appear to have partially quantized redshifts. If the only source of redshift is assumed to be Hubble expansion, the implication is that these bodies are arranged in concentric spherical shells, with the earth at the center. This conclusion is troubling. There have been a number of attempts to explain this apparent anomaly, with various degrees of success. The discoverer of the CREIL effect asserts that the preferred CREIL 'redshifts' match the observed quantization.

Thank you. I understand. :thumbsup:

 

[William Gaatjes]

2. The CREIL effect, because of its reliance of the hyperfine splitting of energy states, shows some degree of quantization. It has been recognised for some time, that very active astronomical objects appear to have partially quantized redshifts. If the only source of redshift is assumed to be Hubble expansion, the implication is that these bodies are arranged in concentric spherical shells, with the earth at the center. This conclusion is troubling. There have been a number of attempts to explain this apparent anomaly, with various degrees of success. The discoverer of the CREIL effect asserts that the preferred CREIL 'redshifts' match the observed quantization.

This fits again with this explanation from Hannes Alfvén :

To Alfvén, the Big Bang was a myth - a myth devised to explain creation. "I was there when Abbe Georges Lemaitre first proposed this theory," he recalled. Lemaitre was, at the time, both a member of the Catholic hierarchy and an accomplished scientist. He said in private that this theory was a way to reconcile science with St. Thomas Aquinas' theological dictum of creatio ex nihilo or creation out of nothing.

In a sense, the earth is still seen as the center of the universe. A classical view of the roman catholic church.

 

[William Gaatjes]

But it makes sense without the need for exotic matter because if you would have an increasing redshift by the CREIL effect or a variance of it, every where you look you would see the universe redshifting more as the distance increases when all are averaged. It would be as if you where in the center of the universe. This makes more sense to me then the inflating balloon explanation of an expanding universe.

 

[DeathRayLoveMachine]

this effect is not something that has made it into mainstream astrophysics. By and large, the only person who has written anything about it is it's discoverer, jean moret-bailey. And, only highly 'fringe' journals have published his work.

I'm not qualified to say whether it is legitimate or not; i am unable to understand the mechanism of its action from the descriptions i have read. But, even if this hypothesis is correct, few astrophysicists appear to accept it.

The proposed result of the creil effect is a exchange in energy between photons of different energies passing through an excited medium. High energy photons lose energy (e.g. Visible light photons become 'redshifted'), and low energy photons gain energy (microwave background photons become 'blueshifted').

The proposer of the creil effect proposes several possibilities that follow from it:
1. Quasars, highly active radio sources, are believed to be extremely distant and ancient due to very heavily red-shifted spectra - and by implication, that they are immensely powerful in order to be so 'bright' at such distance. If, as seems plausible, the surrounding extra-stellar space supports the creil effect, then this redshift may, in part, be due to creil - and not purely due to hubble expansion. This, therefore, radically changes the imputed properties of quasars.

2. The creil effect, because of its reliance of the hyperfine splitting of energy states, shows some degree of quantization. It has been recognised for some time, that very active astronomical objects appear to have partially quantized redshifts. If the only source of redshift is assumed to be hubble expansion, the implication is that these bodies are arranged in concentric spherical shells, with the earth at the center. This conclusion is troubling. There have been a number of attempts to explain this apparent anomaly, with various degrees of success. The discoverer of the creil effect asserts that the preferred creil 'redshifts' match the observed quantization.

Doooooork.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Doooooork.

They know a lot more then people who are "in charge". The love for the work gives an edge in knowledge and intuition over the love to be in charge or the love of being famous, an idol.