The Creationism Museum

Page 16 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Gibsons

Lifer
Aug 14, 2001
12,530
35
91
Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
poohbear

I would defend our scientific understanding of gravity just as quickly if someone were to claim that the effect is just "god pushing stuff together".

Would you consider that extreme too?

This is probably a repost but Text

"Closed-minded gravitists cannot find a way to make Einstein's general relativity match up with the subatomic quantum world," said Dr. Ellen Carson, a leading Intelligent Falling expert known for her work with the Kansan Youth Ministry. "They've been trying to do it for the better part of a century now, and despite all their empirical observation and carefully compiled data, they still don't know how."
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,720
54,715
136
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

That would only be scary if both positions were equally valid (or invalid).
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

I would agree to a certain degree that many atheists are, what I like to call, evangelical atheists who are just as stubborn and close minded as the evangelical Christians that moan and groan about. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example - he likes to trash anything even remotely connected to religion just for the sake of doing so.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Babbles
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

I would agree to a certain degree that many atheists are, what I like to call, evangelical atheists who are just as stubborn and close minded as the evangelical Christians that moan and groan about. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example - he likes to trash anything even remotely connected to religion just for the sake of doing so.
Luckily they are few and far between.

 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
It takes a special kind of ignorance to confuse the meaning between the word "theory" and "scientific theory."
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: ruu

My college roommate was a biochemistry major, and she believes in the infallibility of the Bible and the absolute word of God. She's currently in med school.

I talked to her about evolution; she doesn't know anything about it and doesn't want to learn anything about it because she thinks it's "boring."

Evolution is a complicated concept. If your mind is already primed to reject it, chances are you won't ever understand what it's about.

I shudder to think about her "Medical" skills once she graduates.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Babbles
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

I would agree to a certain degree that many atheists are, what I like to call, evangelical atheists who are just as stubborn and close minded as the evangelical Christians that moan and groan about. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example - he likes to trash anything even remotely connected to religion just for the sake of doing so.
Luckily they are few and far between.

I do not think that is necessarily accurate. There is a group of popular vocal 'evangelical atheists' out there not to mention those that hand out at Anandtech. Granted relatively speaking they are in far fewer numbers than the Bible thumpers, but their numbers are growing and they are vocal.
 

Babbles

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2001
8,253
14
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: ruu

My college roommate was a biochemistry major, and she believes in the infallibility of the Bible and the absolute word of God. She's currently in med school.

I talked to her about evolution; she doesn't know anything about it and doesn't want to learn anything about it because she thinks it's "boring."

Evolution is a complicated concept. If your mind is already primed to reject it, chances are you won't ever understand what it's about.

I shudder to think about her "Medical" skills once she graduates.

I agree that it is bizarre as hell somebody can be a scientist and take the literal word of the Bible.

However to be intellectually fair, her 'medical' skills may not be impacted by her religious beliefs (with the possible exception of OB/GYN situations). She could just as well become a fantastic heart surgeon but still have some wacko creationist beliefs. I think it is somewhat ignorant to imply that somebody will be a horrible physician due to their religious convictions.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Babbles
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Babbles
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

I would agree to a certain degree that many atheists are, what I like to call, evangelical atheists who are just as stubborn and close minded as the evangelical Christians that moan and groan about. Richard Dawkins is a perfect example - he likes to trash anything even remotely connected to religion just for the sake of doing so.
Luckily they are few and far between.

I do not think that is necessarily accurate. There is a group of popular vocal 'evangelical atheists' out there not to mention those that hand out at Anandtech. Granted relatively speaking they are in far fewer numbers than the Bible thumpers, but their numbers are growing and they are vocal.
Not really, it's just when one stands up to the Evangelicals the Evangelicals make a big issue over it.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: poohbear
wow. i see atheists here that are just as extreme in their defence of evolutionism as fundamentalist christians/muslims are in their defence of the bible/quran. scary.:0

:roll:

Maybe it's because many people, regardless of their theism, feel that science is under attack in this country.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
Originally posted by: Duwelon
Science does not understand how a species' gives birth to another species' with different DNA.

Science most certainly understands how different species arise, and there are multiple ways. However, I think the source of misunderstanding is complete inability to comprehend large numbers. And, the inability to comprehend how incredibly rare fossilization occurs. Go to a farmer's field in the spring, when it's being plowed. Walk around. Look at all the bones!! Oh wait, where are the bones? If the earth was even only 6000 years old, there would be 100's of thousands of bones on an acre. Go out into the countryside and attempt to count the number of squirrels, rabbits, birds, mice, woodchucks, deer, snakes, etc. on 1 acre of land. Now, realize that when they die, the odds are that none of them will every end up fossilized. Across most of the United States, there are relatively pockets where conditions will be just right that eventually things that die there will even have a miniscule chance of eventually being fossilized. Furthermore, much of the fossil record is limited to skeletal remains. Hence, how do you think it's even possible to find all these "transitional" steps? Furthermore, it's not as if every skeleton is absolutely identical. For example, there is a range in sizes of bones.

Now, consider humans in North America. Very clearly, over the past several hundred years, the average height of adults has increased. Regardless of the reason, over several hundred years, our skeletons are longer. Now, even a half million; hell, only 100,000 years into the future, looking back on the skeletons, we will NOT be capable of resolving this relatively short amount of time. i.e. if we only had skeletons from 1500 to 2000, we would not be capable of determining that we were seeing a transition toward taller humans. We would only see a range of values for heights of humans. 500 years is an incredibly insignificant amount of time. Yet, even within the human species, we can see changes.

Now, of course, humans are a poor example to use in studying evolution; that's because we can move all over the place within a relatively short amount of time. One method by which new species can arise is geographic isolation. But, I'll continue to use humans anyway. Now, according to the Bible, we all originated from Adam and Eve, or, if you want to go post Noah, ark, and menagerie of animals, then we all originate from that little group of people. Anyways, those humans spread all over the earth - Africa, Australia, The Americas, Europe, Asia. Mutations took place; those that were advantageous tended to get passed on more often than those that were disadvantageous. Of course, within Africa, for instance, there is plenty of mingling, thus these new traits get spread out within the general population. But, those traits that developed in Africa had no way of spreading to the human population in the Americas - the two groups are geographically spread out.

Now, look at some of these genes that are present in Africa that aren't present in other groups of humans. Sickle cell anemia. How the hell would sickle cell anemia be advantageous? Here's how: it protects against malaria. Why don't American Indians or Asians have that gene present? After all, we all started (according to your Bible) from the same small set of people.

Look at all the other traits that are different among the geographic groups. Skin color is just another trait that's different (and related to sunlight exposure.) From the literal interpretation of the Bible stance, all these different variations and genes must have developed within the past 6000 years. How fucking retarded do you have to be to not realize that had we not developed transportation to go from continent to continent that in 6 million years we'd be 1000 times more different than we are now? i.e. completely different species. And, for what it's worth, 6 million years is a VERY short amount of time, geographically.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,414
32,996
136
The museum has served its function. Folks are now having open and frank discussions about creationism and evolution. Ken Ham's work here is finished.
 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: ironwing
The museum has served its function. Folks are now having open and frank discussions about creationism and evolution. Ken Ham's work here is finished.

I dunno... The pro's remain pro, and the cons remain con. this is more of an insultfest... OF which I played my part too =)
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Seen lots of good arguments about creation. Were does the Bible say the six days of creation are man days. Man wasn't around. How long is a God day. None know except its in Bible that a God day is as 1000 years to man. But still doesn't say its a 1000 years either.


Lets look at some scientific fact. Science says there was a Big bang . All the Matter in Universe in 1 place.

Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape accordinging to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,091
45,075
136
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Seen lots of good arguments about creation. Were does the Bible say the six days of creation are man days. Man wasn't around. How long is a God day. None know except its in Bible that a God day is as 1000 years to man. But still doesn't say its a 1000 years either.


Lets look at some scientific fact. Science says there was a Big bang . All the Matter in Universe in 1 place.

Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape accordinging to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.

So anything science doesn't YET a have a comprehensive understanding of is automatically attributable to a supernatural being and is thus conclusive evidence of his existence?

Sounds logical. :roll:

 

retrospooty

Platinum Member
Apr 3, 2002
2,031
74
86
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Seen lots of good arguments about creation. Were does the Bible say the six days of creation are man days. Man wasn't around. How long is a God day. None know except its in Bible that a God day is as 1000 years to man. But still doesn't say its a 1000 years either.


Lets look at some scientific fact. Science says there was a Big bang . All the Matter in Universe in 1 place.

Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape according to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.


The big bang is not 100% verifiable. It is what science thinks happened on how the known universe was created. There is no real "proof" that is possible to collect, as everything blew up. LOL. All we have is the expanding universe that is expanding in a pattern that matches the characteristics of a large explosion in the vacuum of space.

Evolution is different, there is proof of it. DNA can (and has) been analyzed that proves we call evolved from a similar ancestor. Fossil evidence mapping every step of the way from Ape to man has been found... along with 1000's of other species evolutionary paths as well. It can also be seen as various virus and bacteria develop immunities to medicines. We also see it in humans. As some groups of early man left Africa and went into Europe, thier skin lightened because they needed less melatonin - which is why black people are black. It blocks the suns UV rays which kills the vitamin D in our bodies. Thats about the sum of the black/white racial differences in this country. freegin vitamin D. Or as Jesse Jackson might say - we need to be free from the vitamin D!
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Seen lots of good arguments about creation. Were does the Bible say the six days of creation are man days. Man wasn't around. How long is a God day. None know except its in Bible that a God day is as 1000 years to man. But still doesn't say its a 1000 years either.


Lets look at some scientific fact. Science says there was a Big bang . All the Matter in Universe in 1 place.

Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape accordinging to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.

Still "God of the cracks", though we'll be scratching our head on that one for quite some time. There is nothing wrong with believing God him/her/it self had a hand in something that we can not explain, as long as you accept evidence down the road that may say otherwise.

And yet again, I call into question the validity of the bible. What evidence is there to support that what it states is fact? Even a rough estimation. There is of course the "God said so" argument but science can not dispute such a claim, therefor I can call you a homosexual (I use this example because it gets under the skin of religious nuts -not calling you one Nemesis 1- and there is no medical test to find out if you are gay or not) because God told me so and you can not prove me wrong. There's the historical places and people that existed, but this only tells us people who had a hand in writing it lived long enough ago to know of these people and places. I'll also mention the miracles again because I know there is bound to be someone around here itching to bring it up, anything short of a time machine and these miracles can not be proven to have occurred.

And on top of that, what makes christianity the one true religion out of all the others? What divine evidence is there to refute all others? The only reasoning I have heard is faith and I've already explained my view on that. So to say the universe around us is the product of the god of your religion when it's merely one among many of equals is quite the stretch.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: Corbett
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Corbett
That doesn't change the fact that science has not proven one thing in the Bible wrong yet.

Science hasn't disproven the existence of the microscopic alien vs predator war that takes place on the tip of your nose while you are sleeping either. But if you believe that's what happens when you close your eyes, you and his uncle should get together and go bowling.

??? Sounds like YOU are the one who believes alien vs predator war takes place on the tip of your nose and are the one who should go bowling with that uncle.

You just repeated what I said back to me, essentially saying "I know you are but what am I". Are you 5?

But let's run with this a little. Science hasn't disproven the Quran, looks like you are going to have molten metal poured down your throat for all eternity for practicing and preaching the wrong religion!

And how do you need science to disprove that 2 of every animal on the planet, all the trillions of them, fit on a boat and were then disbursed around the planet? Sure you could say "Oh, god just zapped them there," but then you're talking fantasy, not science, and have no right to ask science to prove or disprove anything. By your standard, science can't disprove the Greek creation myths either.[/quote]


Originally posted by: Corbett
In any case, feel free to respond to my earlier post you seem to have missed

Originally posted by: Corbett
So now that you two believe you have made your point, would you care to explain what any of this has to do with the Creationist Museum?

There's that arrogance once again attempting to mask idiocy. That whole discussion was a tangent on your "WTH kind of statement is that" utterance. We informed you it was MLK who said it, and that if you had known it was MLK you wouldn't have said "WTH kind of statement is that." It didn't have anything to do with a creation museum. You maybe noticed threads have multiple discussions that go on within them.

I only respond to this drivel now to disabuse you lest you further delude yourself into thinking that there is anyone on this forum who stops responding to you out of fear rather than exasperation with your thickness.

I didn't "miss" your post. I ignored it as it was rhetorical and obvious why we had the tangential discussion. To everyone except you I suppose.

Originally posted by: Corbett
NEITHER CAN BE PROVEN

And we get to the crux. Your ignorance of basic scientific terminology, and the primary cause of you being the butt of any thread science related. Gravity is a theory and therefore can't be proven according to you, so despite gravity being the universally agreed upon force that causes bodies to attract, you feel that if another group of people got together and proposed we teach in school alternative 'theories' based on untestable supernatural causes for the effects we now attribute to gravity, that we should consider or implement that group's ideas. Because gravity is only a theory and it would be biased not to consider another group's perspective.

As he explains it more elegantly than I can, I'll adopt the below.

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
Corbett

Your argument thet evoultion is just a theory proves that you know little about modern science.

Once upon a time, scientists assigned the term "law" to explanations that seemed to be complete and foolproof. The "laws" of physics and thermodynamics are good examples. Then along came relativity, quantum mechanics, cryogenics, etc.. These showed that there were things happening outside of the human senses ability to detect that didn't quite fit the old laws. The old laws were still perfectly good for the calculating duration of a fall from 100 meters, a mortar shell trajectory, or how dry ice will react.

But scientists learned a lesson, and they stopped naming things "laws". They decided that the word "theory" was a much better term. They use the word "hypothesis" for what you consider "theory" to mean. After compiling enough evidence to prove the hypothesis to be correct and functional, they refer to it as a theory, as in "theory of evolution". And it is perfectly acceptable to refine the theory in light of any new evidence that may be forthcoming.

Once you understand the correct definition of terms as used in science, you can see how ludicrous the argument is that evolution is just a theory. It is very easy to consider you ignorant of the subject when you argue like that.

Your contention that there should be untold millions of fossil records also highlights your ignorance of plate tectonics, geology, erosion, sea level change, fossil formation, etc..

When you use obviously invalid arguments to bolster your case, is it any wonder that you are so easily dismissed?

 
Dec 10, 2005
28,122
12,764
136
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape accordinging to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.

I don't think its just an "enough matter" issue. It's also a enough matter that was spread out and comes crashing back into itself with enough force to literally punch a whole in space, creating a black hole.

Anyway, there is evidence of the big bang, seen through background radiation, etc. Additionally, it is hypothesized by some scientists that the current laws of physics (as understood at the moment) were different at moment the big bang occured, just because of the strange makeup of the-then universe. It's not well understood. Not well understood does not mean there was some external actor, God, that started it.

I'm not saying there was or wasn't a God that started the whole process. I'm just saying it is nearly impossible (because there is always a chance they will discover a process one day to see supernatural beings, just like the LHC can spit out a man eating dragon) to prove it one way or the other. Thus, science doesn't try to solve any questions about God. And that's why belief in God is FAITH. Science and Faith are not inherently conflicting.
 
Oct 25, 2006
11,036
11
91
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Science also says if enough matter in same area it will collaspe in upon itself . Anything caught in its event horizon can't escape accordinging to Science. = Black hole

There fore if all the Matter was in one place in the universe at one time. It to would become a black hole and it could not escape from itself. Unless there was another unseen unknown FORCE at work here. That being God.

I don't think its just an "enough matter" issue. It's also a enough matter that was spread out and comes crashing back into itself with enough force to literally punch a whole in space, creating a black hole.

Anyway, there is evidence of the big bang, seen through background radiation, etc. Additionally, it is hypothesized by some scientists that the current laws of physics (as understood at the moment) were different at moment the big bang occured, just because of the strange makeup of the-then universe. It's not well understood. Not well understood does not mean there was some external actor, God, that started it.

I'm not saying there was or wasn't a God that started the whole process. I'm just saying it is nearly impossible (because there is always a chance they will discover a process one day to see supernatural beings, just like the LHC can spit out a man eating dragon) to prove it one way or the other. Thus, science doesn't try to solve any questions about God. And that's why belief in God is FAITH. Science and Faith are not inherently conflicting.

http://xkcd.com/54/

Science: It works. COBE, a simple graph with such amazing ramifications.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Well, he's vacationed so here is his response. I am not going to post any more in this thread since it's the same old BS that gets argued here by the haters when this subject gets brought up. But IMO, if you don't come from a position of faith then you will likely not understand those who speak of their faith and will instead attempt to ridicule them for any number of reasons.

Here is his reply:
********************************


Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Corbett
Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: Corbett
That doesn't change the fact that science has not proven one thing in the Bible wrong yet.

Science hasn't disproven the existence of the microscopic alien vs predator war that takes place on the tip of your nose while you are sleeping either. But if you believe that's what happens when you close your eyes, you and his uncle should get together and go bowling.

??? Sounds like YOU are the one who believes alien vs predator war takes place on the tip of your nose and are the one who should go bowling with that uncle.

You just repeated what I said back to me, essentially saying "I know you are but what am I". Are you 5?

But let's run with this a little. Science hasn't disproven the Quran, looks like you are going to have molten metal poured down your throat for all eternity for practicing and preaching the wrong religion!

And how do you need science to disprove that 2 of every animal on the planet, all the trillions of them, fit on a boat and were then disbursed around the planet? Sure you could say "Oh, god just zapped them there," but then you're talking fantasy, not science, and have no right to ask science to prove or disprove anything. By your standard, science can't disprove the Greek creation myths either.

[/quote]First, no I am not 5, though, I did have to bring it down to a 5 year old level to answer your wild hypotheticals.

My comment about science not disproving anything in the Bible wrong yet was in reaction to those here claiming that the Bible has been proven wrong by science. Its called a rebuttal. They are wrong when they say that, and thanks for backing me up on that one by agreeing with me.
Originally posted by: Corbett
In any case, feel free to respond to my earlier post you seem to have missed

Originally posted by: Corbett
So now that you two believe you have made your point, would you care to explain what any of this has to do with the Creationist Museum?

There's that arrogance once again attempting to mask idiocy. That whole discussion was a tangent on your "WTH kind of statement is that" utterance. We informed you it was MLK who said it, and that if you had known it was MLK you wouldn't have said "WTH kind of statement is that." It didn't have anything to do with a creation museum. You maybe noticed threads have multiple discussions that go on within them.

I only respond to this drivel now to disabuse you lest you further delude yourself into thinking that there is anyone on this forum who stops responding to you out of fear rather than exasperation with your thickness.

I didn't "miss" your post. I ignored it as it was rhetorical and obvious why we had the tangential discussion. To everyone except you I suppose.
And in that tangent, nothing came out of it other than your trying to jump in and prove me wrong with your wild assertions that MLK would be just as disappointed in the segregation in our churches today as he was when he was around. Point being : we disagree on that and it has NOTHING to do with this thread. But it you would like to continue by stating I didnt know who made that comment, you are right, and I admitted to that, but I also pointed out not only does it not apply today, but again, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING IN THIS THREAD. WTH does racism and segregation have to do with the creation museum? Oh, thats right, its a tangent about nothing. Last I checked, you called that trolling.
Originally posted by: Corbett
NEITHER CAN BE PROVEN

And we get to the crux. Your ignorance of basic scientific terminology, and the primary cause of you being the butt of any thread science related. Gravity is a theory and therefore can't be proven according to you, so despite gravity being the universally agreed upon force that causes bodies to attract, you feel that if another group of people got together and proposed we teach in school alternative 'theories' based on untestable supernatural causes for the effects we now attribute to gravity, that we should consider or implement that group's ideas. Because gravity is only a theory and it would be biased not to consider another group's perspective.

As he explains it more elegantly than I can, I'll adopt the below.

And again, gravity is a law that has been proven while evolution is a theory that only shows evidence, but has not been proven.