The Cost of ObamaCare

[theeedude]

You guys don't get it. Capitalism is all about risk taking. A safety net facilitates this risk taking.
FDR saved American Capitalism.

 

[ZeGermans]

Seriously, if the public option gets axed, why is any conservative having an issue with this? It requires you to get insurance and doesn't have any concrete restrictions on insurance companies raising premiums to whatever outrageous levels they want. Or are they pretending to be populists just to oppose obama? This is one hell of a business give-away.

 

[ja1484]

What I don't get is why it's such a crime to pay $1 Trillion to provide health care in this country, but paying $3 Trillion for a war in a country that never attacked us or harbored terrorists or violated any UN sanctions is ok?

Right, I forgot...one makes a bunch of political donors very rich, the other would just be fair to the taxpayers. My mistake.

 

[Patranus]

The cost?

Its going to be free...

Didn't you get the memo?

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Patranus
The cost?

Its going to be free...

Didn't you get the memo?

Who cares if it's going to be free or not?

All this argument about "fiscal responsibility" is fucking hilarious. Every administration since Reagan has spent its ass off, regardless of party, and they're going to continue to do so until this country crashes hard...not a little mini crash like the past couple years, I mean a good one.

If our fucking tax dollars are going to be spent on something regardless, we might as well get some benefit from it. Bombing Iraq didn't benefit me. It would've been one thing if we'd actually annexed that country and said "all you brown people get the hell out...this oil is now property of white people in the developed West. We want to keep prices low. And if you have a problem with that, you can keep throwing rocks at these Abrams."

BUT WE DIDN'T. WHAT THE HELL WERE WE BUYING WITH THAT WAR?

The point I'm getting at here is I don't care if I have to pay for something to get it. I kind of expect to. That's how our market system works. But paying through the nose and receiving nothing annoys me...so either take the god damn oil or stop bitching about the cost of health care. Consistency is key to a position.

The problem with the Bush administration isn't that they were evil, it was that they sucked at being evil. They tried to hide it. They might as well have come out and said it. No one would've rocked the boat as long as they could've gotten in on the action. Drug dealers don't get pissy when their suppliers are killing Colombian peasants in the processing mills in the middle of the jungle for trying to steal a little extra to sell to feed their family. They're getting fucking paid!

 

[sportage]

So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: Corn

Originally posted by: blanghorst


So you think the government SHOULD be giving out entitlements?

Uh yeah, he does.

I know he does, but I want to see him admit it.

For starters, the whole Idea that Kids these days think they are "Entitled" is just the age old "Kids are spoiled these days" argument. As for Government "Entitlements"(an incorrect term to begin with), they were/are the basis for the development of the greatest Middle Class in History. You can wail and gnash your teeth all you want, but the level of Wealth you enjoy(even in this time of a Great Recession) is directly attributable to FDR's programs. The idea that his Programs prolonged the Depression are poppy cock perpetuated by only a few Ideologically inspired Economists and not by Economists who are at the top of their field.

Keynesian Economics is the most successful school of Economics in History and it is the only school of Economics that approaches the level of Science and the predictability that it entails.

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: senseamp
You guys don't get it. Capitalism is all about risk taking. A safety net facilitates this risk taking.
FDR saved American Capitalism.

Exactly. Imagine if people/corporations were required to pay back every dollar that they borrowed, i.e., no bankruptcy law.

 

[Fingolfin269]

Originally posted by: ja1484

Originally posted by: Patranus
The cost?

Its going to be free...

Didn't you get the memo?

Who cares if it's going to be free or not?

All this argument about "fiscal responsibility" is fucking hilarious. Every administration since Reagan has spent its ass off, regardless of party, and they're going to continue to do so until this country crashes hard...not a little mini crash like the past couple years, I mean a good one.

If our fucking tax dollars are going to be spent on something regardless, we might as well get some benefit from it.

Perhaps for you but I don't see any benefit in this for me. I see higher taxes and a shittier health plan than what I have now (because frankly there is no way a government plan can be better than what I have).

But it's really hard for me to say because I've yet to see the specifics laid out. And I'm talking specifics here not what is just in the bill. How much are my taxes going up? Can I continue to go to my specialist? If I need to get a surgery done that isn't life threatening but will improve my quality of life do I have to wait a year or can I get it done next week like under my current plan? Etc. etc. etc.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

What if the Democrats push their reform through and ends up costing more than ever and covering fewer people because all the doctors quit and went back to school for their engineering and business degress?

Yes, what if indeed.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

What if the Democrats push their reform through and ends up costing more than ever and covering fewer people because all the doctors quit and went back to school for their engineering and business degress?

Yes, what if indeed.

LOL... Doctors going back for engineering degrees? Yeah, that's gonna happen

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp

LOL... Doctors going back for engineering degrees? Yeah, that's gonna happen

Maybe not initially, but you will likely see people who are capable of becoming doctors choose other professions if some of the people on this forum were to have their ideas passed into law.

 

[StageLeft]

Thisis a good article.

All of this is unnecessarily and unhelpfully divisive and provocative. They [Democrats such as Pelosi] are mocking and menacing concerned citizens. This only makes a hot situation hotter. Is this what the president wants? It couldn?t be. But then in an odd way he [Obama] sometimes seems not to have fully absorbed the awesome stature of his office. You really, if you?re president, can?t call an individual American stupid, if for no other reason than that you?re too big. You cannot allow your allies to call people protesting a health-care plan ?extremists? and ?right wing,? or bought, or Nazi-like, either. They?re citizens. They?re concerned. They deserve respect.

This is contributing to the fast lowering approval rating Obama has.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

What if the Democrats push their reform through and ends up costing more than ever and covering fewer people because all the doctors quit and went back to school for their engineering and business degress?

Yes, what if indeed.

LOL... Doctors going back for engineering degrees? Yeah, that's gonna happen

Uhh... why wouldn't it? I know two cardiologists who have. Anecdotal, yes, but out of the realm of possibility? Please.

 

[tk149]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

What if the Democrats push their reform through and ends up costing more than ever and covering fewer people because all the doctors quit and went back to school for their engineering and business degress?

Yes, what if indeed.

LOL... Doctors going back for engineering degrees? Yeah, that's gonna happen

I personally know doctors who, while not considering going for engineering degrees, are contemplating quitting medicine. If you cut compensation for doctors (and health care staff), fewer people will make that their career choice, or at least, fewer qualified people.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Originally posted by: tk149

I personally know doctors who, while not considering going for engineering degrees, are contemplating quitting medicine. If you cut compensation for doctors (and health care staff), fewer people will make that their career choice, or at least, fewer qualified people.

Exactly. Why bust your butt for all of those years in school, building up a ton of debt, if you may not be compensated appropriately?

 

[StageLeft]

I know a new doctor who rather hates it but has to keep doing it to pay off her student loans. No damn surprise to me, work your ass off for vast amounts of hours per week for many years on end, what's not to love? And the money you have can hardly make up for it.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: blanghorst

Originally posted by: tk149

I personally know doctors who, while not considering going for engineering degrees, are contemplating quitting medicine. If you cut compensation for doctors (and health care staff), fewer people will make that their career choice, or at least, fewer qualified people.

Exactly. Why bust your butt for all of those years in school, building up a ton of debt, if you may not be compensated appropriately?

Exactly. Either the U.S. Government will have to drastically reduce payments to doctors or taxes will have to go up. If you are a politician what do you think will keep you in office longer? Having worse healthcare or telling the American people you voted to raise their taxes?

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

What if the Democrats push their reform through and ends up costing more than ever and covering fewer people because all the doctors quit and went back to school for their engineering and business degress?

Yes, what if indeed.

LOL... Doctors going back for engineering degrees? Yeah, that's gonna happen

I know plenty of engineers, especially bioengineers who did premed also....

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Thisis a good article.

All of this is unnecessarily and unhelpfully divisive and provocative. They [Democrats such as Pelosi] are mocking and menacing concerned citizens. This only makes a hot situation hotter. Is this what the president wants? It couldn?t be. But then in an odd way he [Obama] sometimes seems not to have fully absorbed the awesome stature of his office. You really, if you?re president, can?t call an individual American stupid, if for no other reason than that you?re too big. You cannot allow your allies to call people protesting a health-care plan ?extremists? and ?right wing,? or bought, or Nazi-like, either. They?re citizens. They?re concerned. They deserve respect.

This is contributing to the fast lowering approval rating Obama has.

That almost made me cry.

:roll:

Weak argument is weak.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: sportage
So let?s play "what if".
What if reform fails. THe insurance giants get their way. Republicans rejoice.
Those lucky enough to have a job, a job that offers healthcare, keep things as they are (for the time being). The politicians get their huge paychecks from the insurance industry for killing reform. All is well in lala land.

THen... comes January 2010. And you new healthcare hmo plan from your company.
Co-pays up 400%. Pre existing condition, forget it. Kid has leukemia? Make final arrangements cause that hmo is NEVER going to pay for care.

And as the sun sets on uninsured Americans, those few insured sit trembling, wondering if they will be covered when the sun rises tomorrow.
American healthcare... the best in the world (as long as you're healthy, employed, and remain that way).

All while happy congressmen-women enjoy their government healthcare.
And the people ask ?why are healthcare costs so high????
And ?why did my company drop my its insurance plan??
"I thought the republicans fixed all that by killing reform?"
(silly Americans, silly silly silly)

Maybe the republicans can tweak their plan.

ANd check out Obamas senate record concerning attempts to bring about reform.

 

[Xellos2099]

The rising healthcare cost have nothing to do with the insurance. Rather than trying to fix insurance, why don't the so call democrat fix the health care cost itself.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Xellos2099
The rising healthcare cost have nothing to do with the insurance. Rather than trying to fix insurance, why don't the so call democrat fix the health care cost itself.

Rising health care costs have everything to do with insurance. If you don't fix insurance, you aren't going to fix health care costs.
What is going to fix health care costs is the guy paying these costs, the employer, saying F this, I am tired of getting hosed, and telling employees to go get their own insurance.
Then employees will see what private insurance market really holds in store for them, and public option won't look so bad.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans
Meanwhile we almost spend more money on defense than every other country in the world combined. The proposal is a sham anyway, in the spirit of bipartisanship the public option is going to be axed, and then it will just amount to Obama forcing everyone to pad private insurance numbers while making them promise extra nice not to continue raising premiums.

Defense is the elephant in the room when it comes to government spending, but republicans seem to prefer bitching about the mouse in the corner.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: ja1484
What I don't get is why it's such a crime to pay $1 Trillion to provide health care in this country, but paying $3 Trillion for a war in a country that never attacked us or harbored terrorists or violated any UN sanctions is ok?

Right, I forgot...one makes a bunch of political donors very rich, the other would just be fair to the taxpayers. My mistake.

I was against the Iraq war and the absurd deficit spending during the Bush years just like I am against the absurd deficit spending right now. Our bond auctions aren't exactly going well for a country that MUST continue to borrow insane amounts of money just to stay afloat.

So what do we do? We spend even more money (that we don't have) of course! I figure we are at the brink of bankruptcy anyway, might as well max out the credit cards while we can.