The Core 2 Duo/AMD AM2 'Real World Performance' Fiasco

Oct 4, 2004
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From the Anandtech Review which uses X1900XT Crossfire running at 1600x1200 (currently accepted as an optimal resolution for the mid-high-end market, lying comfortably between the mainstream 1280x1024 & ultra-high-end 1920x1200/2560x1600)

Considering the $1000 CPUs

(X6800's advantage over the FX-62)
Battlefield 2 - 19%
HL-2: Ep.1 - 12%
F.E.A.R - 17%
Oblivion (Bruma) - 26%
Oblivion (Dungeon) - 18%
Rise of Legends - 53%
Quake 4 - 11%

On Average, 22% better performance.

The AMD Athlon64 X2 is currently selling for $568, but is rumored to hit $301 after the price cut, putting it squarely against the E6600 at $316.

Considering the ~$300 CPUs

(E6600's advantage over the X2 4600+)
Battlefield 2 - 31%
HL-2: Ep.1 - 22%
F.E.A.R - 17%
Oblivion (Bruma) - 22%
Oblivion (Dungeon) - 18%
Rise of Legends - 52%
Quake 4 - 16%

On Average, 25% better performance.

For the people screaming "X1900XT Crossfire is not what a typical gamer has", I think: Driving 1600x1200 with no AA for two X1900s is hardly a GPU-limited scenario for most games (except maybe Oblivion, which nonetheless does show great benefits).

The trouble is,
1) Run low-res, low-detail benchmarks that show C2D on top: the AMD-fanboys don't care - because no one games at such IQ.
2) Run 7900GTX SLI/X1900XT CF benchmarks that still show the C2D on top: the AMD-fanboys still don't care because realistically, dual-GPU has no widespread market.
3) Run real-world 1600x1200 4XAA 16XAF tests with a single 7900GTX/X1900XTX, the Intel-fanboys scream unfair comparision because the games are GPU-limited and the single-GPUs doen't give the Core 2 Duo enough room to show its true mettle. The G80/R600 will reveal the true superiority of the C2D, they say.

While both camps have a somewhat valid point, I think Anand adopted the best strategy: Almost any game at HQ, 1600x1200 (without AA/AF) is more or less, a piece-of-cake for an X1900XT CF setup. It represents HQ & High-Res performance, without letting the GPU seriously hamper a CPU's ability.

Intel's Core 2 Duo comes out on top, any way you put it. Whether it's 25% faster as some setups reveal, or 5-10% faster as other game-suites/GPU-limited setups reveal: the bottomline is, it is faster and offers better performance per dollar even after the AMD price cuts...and it might prove to be even faster with your next GPU upgrade. CPUs do stick around longer than GPUs for most people. Anyone looking to purchase a Motherboard+CPU+RAM today, really can't go wrong with Core 2 Duo.

If some people still think Intel is bribing 95% of the tech-media (with the obscene revenues their monopolistic & unethical business practices afford them:p) to twist facts and destroy AMD, feel free to click on the smiley. :)
 

Kromis

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2006
5,214
1
81
Well, I am currently undecided. I don't want to join the midst of the battle. Instead, I'll just wait until Vista and DX10 to let the battle die down a bit. Although I am impressed with Conroe, I'm just going to wait.
 

cheesehead

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
10,079
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I'm waiting for one that's less than 100$. For budget overclocking systems, AMD is still king.
It's a kickass processor, though. (Albiet an expensive one.) From what I've heard, though, the 3800+ is going to be dropped to roughly the price level of the bottom-of-the-line Intel Core Duo 2, and let's face it: SLI is superior to Crossfire.
 

OatMan

Senior member
Aug 2, 2001
677
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I'm just glad we don't have to listen to absurd rumor mongering anymore.

I'm already sick of hearing about conroe and NDA is only finally lifted today. But that said this is a great day for consumers!!! AMD finally has to work again, and Intel has been forced to actually make a good pruduct rather than just shoving crap (netburst) and incrimental speed bumps.

I just think it is absolutely hilarious that to get the shiznit in gear they needed an new team in Israel to hotrod a P3. OK I know that isn't exactly fair, nor is totally accurate, but its not so far off and Intel diserves it.

I'm not sure when the E6600s will actually be available in decent numbers but when it is for $300 and a good stepping thats gonna make a nice rig. Now I just hope we see DC opties finally come down more, Monarch seems the only place these prices have started shipping, and I for one am not spending the $$$ for new RAM and MB. Though I still think ATs OC reviews are a bit borked (As if OCing ONE CPU has much meaning statistically) I can't argue with a $300 E6600 that gets 3.6 GHz at stock voltage and 4GHz potentially all on air. I don't think I've ever had a CPU with a 67% OC, that is just amazing!

Go AMD, clean yourself off and kick 'em in the nads!!! I love a good slug fest, to bad there is no jelloe or thong bickinies.
 

athfbum

Member
Jul 1, 2006
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I will be getting the Core 2 Duo E6300 with an Intel P965 mobo and X1800GTO or 7600GT :p
Full system specs will be:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300
Intel P965 mobo
X1800GTO or 7600GT
Thermaltake 430w PSU
1GB (2x512mb) G.Skill DDR2 667 RAM
Logisys Area 51 case
Windows XP Media Centre Edition
 

Thalomos

Junior Member
Jun 16, 2006
4
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Conroe is a faster processor for less. Fact is it might not make a huge difference in games today, but for the average person who upgrades their computer every 2 years, you dont buy your processor based on todays stuff, you buy one that you know will last. Just because it doesn't make a huge difference today, doesn't mean it wont make a huge difference 2 years from now when your processor starts to become too slow for the new ******.
 

OatMan

Senior member
Aug 2, 2001
677
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Originally posted by: athfbum
I will be getting the Core 2 Duo E6300 with an Intel P965 mobo and X1800GTO or 7600GT :p
Full system specs will be:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300
Intel P965 mobo
X1800GTO or 7600GT
Thermaltake 430w PSU
1GB (2x512mb) G.Skill DDR2 667 RAM
Logisys Area 51 case
Windows XP Media Centre Edition


No offense, but after spending like $400 for good RAM and MB, why would you cheap out on the neutered 2MB cache chip when the E6600 is going to have a street price below $300 once they are available in quantity?

Can you hold off a few months before your upgrade??? I think in the long run you would be better off waiting and saving some $$$ until you can get better CPU. It seems to clock the same as the top end cpu's with a good stepping and cooling.

I know its hard to resist the "money burning a hole in the pocket and shiny new hardware just released" syndrome but think about it...
 

Pugnate

Senior member
Jun 25, 2006
690
0
0
I am a long time AMD user. That hardocp article was guilty of exactly what it accused others of doing, and what it was supposed to stand against: sensationalism.

Here is the funniest thing. Even if you look through the biased eyes of hardocp:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTEwOCwzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

What I find funny is this:

It shows the FX62 and the Core 2 Duo 6700 to have the same frame rates right? Well fine. Let's say that the found a setting....ahem... real world setting where they are giving the same frames...

The FX 62 is $600 more expensive!

Would you rather not spend $600 less and get a processor that won't be a bottleneck to that nice Dx10 card you are going to buy?

I've always been an AMD guy, but come on... Intel have in a single day revolutionized the industry. Have you ever seen a $1100 computer component (FX 62) lose value over night?

 

OatMan

Senior member
Aug 2, 2001
677
0
71
Actually it may be moot if conroe availibility is as poor as the shipping schedules make it appear. It may very well be that mere mortals won't be able to touch a conroe for a decent price (GOUGING) until '07. Unless you buy a Dell anyway.
 

OatMan

Senior member
Aug 2, 2001
677
0
71

I've always been an AMD guy, but come on... Intel have in a single day revolutionized the industry.



dude, you say this in a post pointing out being biased and sensationalist?

Uhm Intel has clearly put out a new and great product, but isn't that what they are supposed to do?

revolutionary is the first web browsers and e-commerce. It changed the way the world works. revolutionary is the moog synthesizer, it changed what is considered music and how music is made.

this is simply a nice cpu. We're all excited and I think your point is just this, "lets keep our pants on". Anand has some pretty questionable cheesy-ness in his article too. I agree though that the article makes for some good yukes.
 

Pugnate

Senior member
Jun 25, 2006
690
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Trust me, two to three months and you will get it a decent price. Gouging happens with anything in great demand. But supply will increase automatically.

I am happy with my 3800 so I can wait. :p
 

BlingBlingArsch

Golden Member
May 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: OatMan
Actually it may be moot if conroe availibility is as poor as the shipping schedules make it appear. It may very well be that mere mortals won't be able to touch a conroe for a decent price (GOUGING) until '07. Unless you buy a Dell anyway.


show me these shipping schedules
 

Nightmare225

Golden Member
May 20, 2006
1,661
0
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Originally posted by: BlingBlingArsch
Originally posted by: OatMan
Actually it may be moot if conroe availibility is as poor as the shipping schedules make it appear. It may very well be that mere mortals won't be able to touch a conroe for a decent price (GOUGING) until '07. Unless you buy a Dell anyway.


show me these shipping schedules

Ya, I've been waiting to see those too. Just because Intel's one of the largest companies in the world, doesn't mean that they can meet demand for their 4-years-in-the-making proccessor. ;)
 

rmed64

Senior member
Feb 4, 2005
237
0
0
Dont worry, AMD fanboys are just heartbroken right now. They'll just have to wait till 2008 for AMD's answer.

 

coldpower27

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2004
1,676
0
76
Originally posted by: rmed64
Dont worry, AMD fanboys are just heartbroken right now. They'll just have to wait till 2008 for AMD's answer.


They deserved it it's Intel Fanboy's turn to shine. ;) lol
 

WhoKnowsWho

Member
Jul 2, 2005
87
0
0
Originally posted by: Pugnate
I am a long time AMD user. That hardocp article was guilty of exactly what it accused others of doing, and what it was supposed to stand against: sensationalism.

Here is the funniest thing. Even if you look through the biased eyes of hardocp:

http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTEwOCwzLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

What I find funny is this:

It shows the FX62 and the Core 2 Duo 6700 to have the same frame rates right? Well fine. Let's say that the found a setting....ahem... real world setting where they are giving the same frames...

The FX 62 is $600 more expensive!

Would you rather not spend $600 less and get a processor that won't be a bottleneck to that nice Dx10 card you are going to buy?

I've always been an AMD guy, but come on... Intel have in a single day revolutionized the industry. Have you ever seen a $1100 computer component (FX 62) lose value over night?

Yeah, I was looking forward to the Hard OCP article. Then I read it... I still don't get why they split the articles either, I guess it makes it easier to make the gamer conclusion that they did, since the encoding and other usage benchmarks were not included. The games forum post has 20 pages while the media encoding one only has 2 pages, which shows what people are reading and commenting on. Maybe they should start doing frames per dollar instead of second...
 

athfbum

Member
Jul 1, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: OatMan
Originally posted by: athfbum
I will be getting the Core 2 Duo E6300 with an Intel P965 mobo and X1800GTO or 7600GT :p
Full system specs will be:
Intel Core 2 Duo E6300
Intel P965 mobo
X1800GTO or 7600GT
Thermaltake 430w PSU
1GB (2x512mb) G.Skill DDR2 667 RAM
Logisys Area 51 case
Windows XP Media Centre Edition


No offense, but after spending like $400 for good RAM and MB, why would you cheap out on the neutered 2MB cache chip when the E6600 is going to have a street price below $300 once they are available in quantity?

Can you hold off a few months before your upgrade??? I think in the long run you would be better off waiting and saving some $$$ until you can get better CPU. It seems to clock the same as the top end cpu's with a good stepping and cooling.

I know its hard to resist the "money burning a hole in the pocket and shiny new hardware just released" syndrome but think about it...

You do have a good point, the E6600 has better than FX-62 performance for about a third of the price. But then, my hardware is dependent on my budget and I really need a new PC, so I will build a new PC before September. The E6400 should have relatively the same performance of an FX-62, so if my budget allows, I'll pick one up. In the Xbitlabs review of the E6300, it was stated that the E6300 has enormous overclocking potential. (it was overclocked to 2.93ghz stable with its stock cooler and if an aftermarket supercooler was added (a Tuniq Tower perhaps) it could overclock more. If I do go with the E6300 I WILL overclock it to 2.93ghz, and I'll buy a Tuniq Tower, just to be safe :D
 

Regs

Lifer
Aug 9, 2002
16,666
21
81
No offense, but after spending like $400 for good RAM and MB, why would you cheap out on the neutered 2MB cache chip when the E6600 is going to have a street price below $300 once they are available in quantity?

Call me a skeptic, but I'm having a hard time believing that. I'm thinking $350+ for the first year in the retail channel. Either way though, you have a point.
 

athfbum

Member
Jul 1, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: Regs
No offense, but after spending like $400 for good RAM and MB, why would you cheap out on the neutered 2MB cache chip when the E6600 is going to have a street price below $300 once they are available in quantity?

Call me a skeptic, but I'm having a hard time believing that. I'm thinking $350+ for the first year in the retail channel. Either way though, you have a point.

You are actually closer Regs. The actual price for the RAM and mobo will be about $230 :p
 

athfbum

Member
Jul 1, 2006
183
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0
I estimated that my whole rig will cost about $950 if I get an E6300. Including mouse, keyboard, speakers, and Oblivion
 

haelduksf

Member
Feb 11, 2005
58
0
0
Originally posted by: athfbum


You do have a good point, the E6600 has better than FX-62 performance for about a third of the price. But then, my hardware is dependent on my budget and I really need a new PC, so I will build a new PC before September. The E6400 should have relatively the same performance of an FX-62, so if my budget allows, I'll pick one up. In the Xbitlabs review of the E6300, it was stated that the E6300 has enormous overclocking potential. (it was overclocked to 2.93ghz stable with its stock cooler and if an aftermarket supercooler was added (a Tuniq Tower perhaps) it could overclock more. If I do go with the E6300 I WILL overclock it to 2.93ghz, and I'll buy a Tuniq Tower, just to be safe :D

The FX-62 is much cheaper at the moment: it costs $1000, and the E6600 costs what might as well be an infinite amount- it is unavailable, and as I recall it will be until the 23rd. When it *is* available, and AMD has cut their prices, you can then compare prices.
 

athfbum

Member
Jul 1, 2006
183
0
0
Originally posted by: haelduksf
Originally posted by: athfbum


You do have a good point, the E6600 has better than FX-62 performance for about a third of the price. But then, my hardware is dependent on my budget and I really need a new PC, so I will build a new PC before September. The E6400 should have relatively the same performance of an FX-62, so if my budget allows, I'll pick one up. In the Xbitlabs review of the E6300, it was stated that the E6300 has enormous overclocking potential. (it was overclocked to 2.93ghz stable with its stock cooler and if an aftermarket supercooler was added (a Tuniq Tower perhaps) it could overclock more. If I do go with the E6300 I WILL overclock it to 2.93ghz, and I'll buy a Tuniq Tower, just to be safe :D

The FX-62 is much cheaper at the moment: it costs $1000, and the E6600 costs what might as well be an infinite amount- it is unavailable, and as I recall it will be until the 23rd. When it *is* available, and AMD has cut their prices, you can then compare prices.
The only one that is available is the Core 2 Extreme X6800, and it is sold out everywhere
 

yacoub

Golden Member
May 24, 2005
1,991
14
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Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
3) Run real-world 1600x1200 4XAA 16XAF tests with a single 7900GTX/X1900XTX, the Intel-fanboys scream unfair comparision because the games are GPU-limited and the single-GPUs doen't give the Core 2 Duo enough room to show its true mettle.

Oh, so you mean for the vast majority of gamers - people who run single GPU systems - the Core2Duo won't show that 22%-25% improvement?

Hmmm... then maybe the AMD price break IS the way to go since we (read: most gamers) already have all this AMD hardware.

So you see it IS important for us to know how much performance difference there is between the C2D and X2 in REAL WORLD settings such as single GPU systems.

FWIW I'm ready to buy a C2D system today, but alas they don't exist for consumers yet and until the extremely :rolleyes: gouging goes away, etailers can eat my butt.
 

MesaMirageII

Junior Member
Sep 23, 2004
21
0
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and who's going to buy the $1000 "available" FX-62 when they know if a couple weeks it will be worth $250. Cats outta the bag... FX-62's will not move at the current price point. So using your theory the FX-62 might as well be an infinite amount right now also since they are not availible at $250!!

Keep in mind boys and girls just how much money AMD has been losing when they had the best product and could demand the price they wanted. What now?? will they now be making money with the new "low end" FX-62 product at cut throat prices... So much for that R&D budget... unless your Airbus you have to make money at some point.