The concentration camps of our time in North Korea

[Craig234]

2. 'Talking' about it, 'thinking' about it, being (more) aware of it does nothing, other than possibly assuaging some misplaced sense of guilt for the 'touchy/feely' types.

We disagree. You are attacking the entire idea of democacy and that the government has any power in foreign affairs.

3. IMO, assassination won't solve anything. Some other "Dear Leader" will just step up. And it has the very strong potential to create all kinds of geopolitical trouble.

I think whenever change happens there it needs to be very deliberate and somewhat gradual (of course food and medical care etc can be swift). For the most part, that population seems uniquely unprepared to handle anything but hero worshipping servitude. I am reminded of when I lived in Miami and saw how traumatic it was for those escaping Cuba/Castro and coming to the USA. I expect it to be much worse for North Koreans.

You're on much better ground with those comments.

Not that the difficulties North Koreans would have with change is a reason not to do it.

Fern[/QUOTE]

 

[Fern]

We disagree. You are attacking the entire idea of democacy and that the government has any power in foreign affairs.

I'm not attacking "democracy".

I admit to be somewhat attacking the notion that we have any real power as regards NK and foreign policy.

You're on much better ground with those comments.

Not that the difficulties North Koreans would have with change is a reason not to do it.

What is the "it" that you refer to?

I do think the difficulties NKs would suffer from an abrupt change argue against radical and sudden change in the status quo, at least not without without a tremendous effort from a host of dedicated and united countries all helping to mitigate such suffering.

Fern

 

[Doppel]

Charles, what makes you think that North Korea is irrational? It seems to me like the actions of their leadership are perfectly rational so long as you account for the fact that their goal is to remain in power, not provide the best standard of living/safety/whatever for North Koreans.

Other than that, I have no problem with the US assassinating North Korea's leadership from a moral perspective but from a practical one the instability it could cause in the country probably means it isn't worth it in this case.

NK is absolutely rational. It is why I don't fear their nukes at all, even if they were capable of projecting them anywhere. NK will not commit suicide. It's leaders pretend at being insane just to stoke fear but they are nt interested in war, for they know they would lose t and instead of steak dinners they get firing squads just like their slave labor class.

 

[Craig234]

NK is absolutely rational. It is why I don't fear their nukes at all, even if they were capable of projecting them anywhere. NK will not commit suicide. It's leaders pretend at being insane just to stoke fear but they are nt interested in war, for they know they would lose t and instead of steak dinners they get firing squads just like their slave labor class.

Again, you know what country had a leader who pretended to be crazy and ready to launch nukes as a strategy to try to scare an opponent?

Yup, the US. Richard Nixon did that. He ran on a 'secret plan to end the war', and that was his secret plan, working with Kissinger to try to convince the North Vietnamese he was nuts. It didn't work. On top of that, we learned from the Oval Office tapes he never meant to be heard, he really did like the idea of launching nukes.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

NK is absolutely rational. It is why I don't fear their nukes at all, even if they were capable of projecting them anywhere. NK will not commit suicide. It's leaders pretend at being insane just to stoke fear but they are nt interested in war, for they know they would lose t and instead of steak dinners they get firing squads just like their slave labor class.

"Absolutely rational" seems like an overstatement to me. That country is dysfunctional, and even self-interest can become irrational if taken to extremes and if it increases the chances that you die a bloody death.

The people in charge there could live very comfortable lives without doing what they are doing to their people. I don't consider wanting oneself to be viewed as an omnipotent demigod as "rational" behavior.

I'm also not comfortable with the leap of faith required to believe in NK's rationality. It's really putting trust in people who don't deserve it. We could be right, but if we're wrong, the results will be disastrous.

Again, you know what country had a leader who pretended to be crazy and ready to launch nukes as a strategy to try to scare an opponent?

That's what nukes are really for.

So the countries that have nukes and perceive themselves as being threatened will make use of that technique. That includes us, the USSR, India, Pakistan and Israel. I don't think the UK, France or China have done this yet, but they would if they had good reason.

 

[Fern]

"Absolutely rational" seems like an overstatement to me. That country is dysfunctional, and even self-interest can become irrational if taken to extremes and if it increases the chances that you die a bloody death.

The people in charge there could live very comfortable lives without doing what they are doing to their people. I don't consider wanting oneself to be viewed as an omnipotent demigod as "rational" behavior.

I'm also not comfortable with the leap of faith required to believe in NK's rationality. It's really putting trust in people who don't deserve it. We could be right, but if we're wrong, the results will be disastrous.
-snip-

Pretty much agree.

However, I think they are far less rational than do many here.

Certainly, in some 'smaller aspects' they are behaving rationally. But in the 'big picture' I think they quite irrational.

I rarely use analogies, but feel I'm having trouble finding the right words to express myself. So, I'll resort to one.

'Big picture' - I want to self immolate in front of City Hall to protest the high cost of bread. This is highly irrational for any number of reasons.

'Smaller aspect'. I plan to bring matches along with my gas can. Bringing matches is totally rational as I'll need them to accomplish my task.

That's basically the way I feel as NK.

Let me quote Einstein:

“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

The model they've been using for decades to run their country has proven unsuccessful, yet they keep at it. I.e., doing the same thing over and over again.

I realize some here believe NK's leaders are rational because their methods have allowed them to remain in power. But I think there are other ways to achieve that, and I think that's been demonstrated many times in history, without having to resort to forcing your population to subsist on eating grass or their children or other North Koreans.

IMO, the 'big picture' is insanity. But they do employ some rationality in some tactics in support of that 'big picture'.

As regards nuclear weapons, I wonder what, and how far, NK's leaders would go if something internal, or even external, occurred to jeopardize that. If they saw an avenue to retain power when jeopardized, would they launch nukes if they thought it might. A "start a war' to unify your county type thing.

Fern

 

[Craig234]

Pretty much agree.

However, I think they are far less rational than do many here.

Certainly, in some 'smaller aspects' they are behaving rationally. But in the 'big picture' I think they quite irrational.

I rarely use analogies, but feel I'm having trouble finding the right words to express myself. So, I'll resort to one.

'Big picture' - I want to self immolate in front of City Hall to protest the high cost of bread. This is highly irrational for any number of reasons.

'Smaller aspect'. I plan to bring matches along with my gas can. Bringing matches is totally rational as I'll need them to accomplish my task.

That's basically the way I feel as NK.

Let me quote Einstein:



The model they've been using for decades to run their country has proven unsuccessful, yet they keep at it. I.e., doing the same thing over and over again.

I realize some here believe NK's leaders are rational because their methods have allowed them to remain in power. But I think there are other ways to achieve that, and I think that's been demonstrated many times in history, without having to resort to forcing your population to subsist on eating grass or their children or other North Koreans.

IMO, the 'big picture' is insanity. But they do employ some rationality in some tactics in support of that 'big picture'.

As regards nuclear weapons, I wonder what, and how far, NK's leaders would go if something internal, or even external, occurred to jeopardize that. If they saw an avenue to retain power when jeopardized, would they launch nukes if they thought it might. A "start a war' to unify your county type thing.

Fern

Hate to say it, but wanting tight control to keep power is nothing new, they just do it to an extreme.

As powerful as China's government is, they worry about keeping control, hence their political prisoners and censorship of media and the internet.

As powerful as Itan's government is, they worry about keeping control and similarly have political prisoners, censorship, etc.

North Korea just take it to an extreme.

From the leaders' point of view, with their extreme poverty - who is doing better, them with total repression, or a leader like Mubarak with decades of control, billions in aid from the US, a pretty brutal police force that used torture, but had enough freedom for the people to form a rebellion?

Who is doing better, the North Korean leaders or Saddam Hussein, who had one of the most powerful militaries in the world and strong control over his country, but no WMD or nuclear weapons to prevent an invasion - and who the UN prohibitions on an invasion did no good for when the US trumped up a claim Iraq was a 'threat' justifying a pre-emptice invasion and just ignored the rules?

Think the leaders of North Korea have any reason to think they'd be in power by allowing freedom to the people or giving up their nuclear weapons?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Hate to say it, but wanting tight control to keep power is nothing new, they just do it to an extreme.

Some folks still don't know that this was the entire point of the cold war; the entire point of the war on terror; the whole raison d'etre for our national stance on immigration.

Fear is the mind killer; thinking people are hard to control. They stop existing in perpetual-debt consumerist shackles and start moving in ways that are entirely novel, interesting, innovative, stupid, funny, amazing, and dare I say it... radical


btw, this is the main problem with MSNBC: it's just the faux news of the democrats... it masks the most essential fact: R&D play on the same team... Perpetuating false assumptions we've all been indoctrinated in since our first years of state-provided "...school?"

If we teaching did anything other than force free minds to 'behave' in school, then the kids wouldn't be failing basic competency tests after being constantly drilled on them.

If learning doesn't happen at home, then why would at-home educational interest directly predict performance on basic competency tests?

Hearing about how bad the rest of the world is allows us to forget how we're a society like any other, with major failings of our own... let us get the repression out of our own country's eyes before we put our freedom boot up another.

 

[Sonikku]

When the population in general are starving to such an extreme that parents are resorting to cannibalizing their own children I'd say the whole damn country is one big concentration camp.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

When the population in general are starving to such an extreme that parents are resorting to cannibalizing their own children I'd say the whole damn country is one big concentration camp.

source:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...riven-mad-hunger-famine-hit-pariah-state.html

This represents my take on the daily mail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

 

[Craig234]

When the population in general are starving to such an extreme that parents are resorting to cannibalizing their own children I'd say the whole damn country is one big concentration camp.

While it is, the actual camps are far, far worse than the rest of the country.