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The collapse of California

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bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Things are pretty f'd here. People expect far to much from the government and want to do far to little. There's also so much divide in the state due to the push for multiculturalism and political correctness. No one is just a Californian or whatever, they all belong to their own little identities and groups. And that identity/image matters more to them than anything else.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
192
106
Things are pretty f'd here. People expect far to much from the government and want to do far to little. There's also so much divide in the state due to the push for multiculturalism and political correctness. No one is just a Californian or whatever, they all belong to their own little identities and groups. And that identity/image matters more to them than anything else.
America is called the melting pot of the world. But what happens when groups do not melt and blend together? It causes cracks in society, weak points where tension can slip in and erode the community.

Its like the illegal immigrants. Instead of the elected officials trying to protect the best interest of California, the elected officials want to protect the illegal immigrants. Those special interest groups slowly erodes society.

Instead of belonging to the state of California or to the U.S., that microcosm develops its own identity.
 

Sonikku

Lifer
Jun 23, 2005
15,641
4,242
136
I've looked through much of the website and I am pleased to say that that place is as fair and balanced as I've ever seen.
 

K1052

Lifer
Aug 21, 2003
36,600
10,586
136
How anyone can pretend the article in the OP isn't an entirely useless pile of anecdotal crap is beyond me. It doesn't even make a good opinion piece since it wanders from unrelated topics to vague unsupported conclusions and back again with no rhyme or reason. Given that and the author's actual field of expertise that anyone would take this seriously is hilarious.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
Oh I don't work in academia and NYU is private, not public. Alas, it appears that our education system has been a failure with you as well despite the fact that it has undoubtedly been augmented by a great deal of senior learning. Don't worry though, friend PJABBER, I still believe in you. If you ever have questions about public policy I would be more than happy to answer them for you, as like you I am a strong proponent of lifetime learning.
I was referring to your time at UC SD, not NYU, but I can see where you might be confused by that.

I have sometimes wondered at the hubris of some who achieve an academic credential or two. Usually they are those who have spent countless hours reading of other's ideas and accomplishments and have few of their own. Usually they have bought into, nay, staked their careers on some slightly different, but enormously unique and important distinguishment in their eyes and of their small circle of fellows. Much like you, they revel in counting how many angels may fit upon the point of a needle.

Thank you for offering to advise me on your perceptions of public policy. I am sure to glean as much from your interminable posts in this forum. However, I am committed to your peaceful happiness and you do get so very angry with any disagreement that I do not believe such consultation would produce a desirable result. That and I do tend to refer to closer personal friends at Jindal and Guido Carli for such perspectives as they may wish to offer.

More than anything I wish for your happiness as well as my own. It appears that you not using the internet accomplishes both of these so perfectly that I daresay it appears to be the work of divine providence. It fits like a key in a lock, or a coveted 4 square long piece in Tetris. You not posting here is all that stands between us and that long awaited bonus.
It is my sincerest desire that you be happy as well. But, I am afraid that is not yet a possibility. There are some rules that seem universal for true happiness, I post them as my sig. They are simple to read but oh so hard for many to achieve. My hope is that you get over yourself at some point in your life, that you are finally open to explore the many ways of happiness. I am sympathetic that it is likely to be a torturous route that you will have to take should you decide you wish to be happy.

As to my disturbing the comforts of your self-satisfaction, I do believe you can block my humble posts from ever crossing your eyes at anytime you should so choose. Though I no longer indulge in such myself, I am sure it would be a comfort to never have challenges to a strict and well defined world, one that allows only agreements and self-congratulatory laudations. Now that I think of it, I gave no further thought to it once I was weaned. Can't say I miss it at all.

:cool:
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,297
127
106
Wouldn't it depend on his personal interests to a great extent?

For example, I regularly go to meetings of the American Philosophical Society and am always impressed and delighted by the breadth as well as the depth of interests and knowledge that the highly distinguished membership has outside their fields of specialized expertise.

Of course, not everyone does have broad interests, but you would like to claim that a guy like Hanson cannot possibly comment on the state of the State of California without some piddly undergrad poli sci or economics degree to validate his observations and opinions? After all, what does holding a Fellowship in California Studies at the Claremont Institute since 2002 really mean?

I take note that Hanson received a BA at the University of California, Santa Cruz (1975) and his PhD in classics from Stanford University (1980).

Gee, all of these California university credentials. You would think from some of the comments here that he lives in the East Village of NYC and has never crossed the Hudson River.

Perhaps you should read some of his writings before coming to more uninformed judgments? You might even consider reading several years of his contemporary writing to see if your knee jerk presuppositions bear out.
I've read your posts in this thread.

It seems you didn't even read the OPs article otherwise you wouldn't be defending such a poorly written piece.

It makes me think you just came in this thread to disrupt and deflect...hmmmm....nah..that couldn't be.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
72,160
22,762
136
I was referring to your time at UC SD, not NYU, but I can see where you might be confused by that.

I have sometimes wondered at the hubris of some who achieve an academic credential or two. Usually they are those who have spent countless hours reading of other's ideas and accomplishments and have few of their own. Usually they have bought into, nay, staked their careers on some slightly different, but enormously unique and important distinguishment in their eyes and of their small circle of fellows. Much like you, they revel in counting how many angels may fit upon the point of a needle.
These people you speak of most certainly do sound unfortunate. To live so long and do so little would be terrible! Luckily for me I had a reasonable number of accomplishments under my belt before I even started my undergraduate education so I do not feel in danger of such a sad situation. They sound like one side of a coin though, don't you think? The opposite side of course being those who feel inadequate due to their lack of knowledge and understanding despite a significant interest in a topic. People with actual experience and education are very intimidating and so they feel the need to denigrate that which they have been unable to achieve themselves.

Both of these lives sound quite unappealing, don't you agree?

Thank you for offering to advise me on your perceptions of public policy. I am sure to glean as much from your interminable posts in this forum. However, I am committed to your peaceful happiness and you do get so very angry with any disagreement that I do not believe such consultation would produce a desirable result. That and I do tend to refer to closer personal friends at Jindal and Guido Carli for such perspectives as they may wish to offer.
Ah, another unfortunate miscommunication! Worry not about my happiness, friend PJABBER. I was not offering to have you speak back to me about public policy as your posts on here have made it abundantly clear that there would be nothing of value contained within. I'm happy to hear that you have friends who may be able to provide you with an understanding of policy when so many others have failed, however! Some people simply require more help than others, and it is my sincere wish that such esteemed individuals can finally get you over the hump.

It is my sincerest desire that you be happy as well. But, I am afraid that is not yet a possibility. There are some rules that seem universal for true happiness, I post them as my sig. They are simple to read but oh so hard for many to achieve. My hope is that you get over yourself at some point in your life, that you are finally open to explore the many ways of happiness. I am sympathetic that it is likely to be a torturous route that you will have to take should you decide you wish to be happy.

As to my disturbing the comforts of your self-satisfaction, I do believe you can block my humble posts from ever crossing your eyes at anytime you should so choose. Though I no longer indulge in such myself, I am sure it would be a comfort to never have challenges to a strict and well defined world, one that allows only agreements and self-congratulatory laudations. Now that I think of it, I gave no further thought to it once I was weaned. Can't say I miss it at all.

:cool:
Your concern is touching, and it genuinely warms my heart. I particularly enjoyed the beautiful contrast of claiming to hold the answer to one of life's most enduring problems while at the same time expressing humility. Not just any poster on the venerable ATPN would be able to achieve such a feat!

It does pain me to hear that you gave ATPN not a second though though. With so many people that you care about here I would hope that you could spare at least a few moments for our emotional wellbeing. On the topic of happiness, although I could ignore your posts I genuinely enjoy mocking you. While I might prefer you not to be present at all, if you are going to be here I can at least have a nice afternoon holding you up for ridicule. Since my happiness is something that you are concerned with, I imagine that this choice would serve as an alternative that we can both agree on!

Common ground is a vital component of any relationship, and it pleases me to think that we've achieved that today.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
I've read your posts in this thread.

It seems you didn't even read the OPs article. Someone who is as smart as you CLAIM you are wouldn't be defending such a poorly written piece.

It makes me think you just came in this thread to disrupt and deflect...hmmmm....nah..that couldn't be.
My dear Overbite, I make no claims to being especially smart or educated or accomplished, or at least if I do it is with tongue in cheek. I am just a humble person who has lived an interesting life. I do have achievements that might astonish you, and you might even recall some as I have posted here over a number of years, but I do not personally hold such to be more than passages to glean what I might.

While I cannot claim to read each and every piece written by VDH, I will say that he is, in my own opinion and that of many learned and accomplished readers, one of the most interesting writers currently publishing. I do admit to having read almost every book he has written, so maybe my perspective is of the body of work and not just this singular article.

I did read the article and have some opinions on the content and the presentation. But as the discussion was underway when I joined it, I was a bit more interested in recounting the recognition that has been granted him for too many without similar accomplishment have jumped to question whether he has sufficient background or experience to make the comments that he does.

The article, as is commented here, has a number of anecdotal references. What is wrong with that? Is not a first person perspective more valid than a summation of someone else's opinion?

The path to learning something new is to accept that it is new and not some regurgitation of what you expect. Are you not learning something new in this piece?

VDH has traveled and worked throughout the world. He explores the variety of history, near and ancient, as well as the circumstance of the present. Does that not give him a broader perspective than someone who is entrenched in the immediate?

I see thousands of posts here that fail at rationality and offer nothing but self-indulgence. Yet those most guilty of this are the quickest to demonstrate their failure to recognize when something actually does contribute to the furthering of insight and a worthwhile basis for debate.

Don't you agree?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
If you let thousands of illegals come to your state and you hire them all because they will work for wages below min wage, then it is your state's responsibility to pay for the people you invited to stay in your state.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,297
127
106
My dear Overbite, I make no claims to being especially smart or educated or accomplished, or at least if I do it is with tongue in cheek. I am just a humble person who has lived an interesting life. I do have achievements that might astonish you, and you might even recall some as I have posted here over a number of years, but I do not personally hold such to be more than passages to glean what I might.

While I cannot claim to read each and every piece written by VDH, I will say that he is, in my own opinion and that of many learned and accomplished readers, one of the most interesting writers currently publishing. I do admit to having read almost every book he has written, so maybe my perspective is of the body of work and not just this singular article.

I did read the article and have some opinions on the content and the presentation. But as the discussion was underway when I joined it, I was a bit more interested in recounting the recognition that has been granted him for too many without similar accomplishment have jumped to question whether he has sufficient background or experience to make the comments that he does.

The article, as is commented here, has a number of anecdotal references. What is wrong with that? Is not a first person perspective more valid than a summation of someone else's opinion?

The path to learning something new is to accept that it is new and not some regurgitation of what you expect. Are you not learning something new in this piece?

VDH has traveled and worked throughout the world. He explores the variety of history, near and ancient, as well as the circumstance of the present. Does that not give him a broader perspective than someone who is entrenched in the immediate?

I see thousands of posts here that fail at rationality and offer nothing but self-indulgence. Yet those most guilty of this are the quickest to demonstrate their failure to recognize when something actually does contribute to the furthering of insight and a worthwhile basis for debate.

Don't you agree?
yeah I dont plan on reading nor responding to all of that

edit: actually I did just read all of your rambling, you've jumped to a conclusion and you continue to double down on it. No one cares about the authors experience/education/background considering he didnt use ANY OF IT in his article

but...continue...it is amusing.

I will point out that you continue to deflect/disrupt from the OP.... no surprise.

Thanks for proving my point.
 
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OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,297
127
106
as for anecdotal evidence. If the OP author wants to claim that dog fighting is bad in his neighborhood because of all the dead dogs he sees in his alleyway then fine.

But I hardly think that is a good premise to support the notion that California is collapsing because of dog fighting...

nope.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
These people you speak of most certainly do sound unfortunate. To live so long and do so little would be terrible! Luckily for me I had a reasonable number of accomplishments under my belt before I even started my undergraduate education so I do not feel in danger of such a sad situation. They sound like one side of a coin though, don't you think? The opposite side of course being those who feel inadequate due to their lack of knowledge and understanding despite a significant interest in a topic. People with actual experience and education are very intimidating and so they feel the need to denigrate that which they have been unable to achieve themselves.

Both of these lives sound quite unappealing, don't you agree?
I believe that you tie yourself in knots to no avail. :D

Ah, another unfortunate miscommunication! Worry not about my happiness, friend PJABBER. I was not offering to have you speak back to me about public policy as your posts on here have made it abundantly clear that there would be nothing of value contained within. I'm happy to hear that you have friends who may be able to provide you with an understanding of policy when so many others have failed, however! Some people simply require more help than others, and it is my sincere wish that such esteemed individuals can finally get you over the hump.
My worries, of which there are many, do not encompass you but in the broadest sense. :D

Your concern is touching, and it genuinely warms my heart. I particularly enjoyed the beautiful contrast of claiming to hold the answer to one of life's most enduring problems while at the same time expressing humility. Not just any poster on the venerable ATPN would be able to achieve such a feat!
More likely the issue is if they have even made such an attempt.

It does pain me to hear that you gave ATPN not a second though though. With so many people that you care about here I would hope that you could spare at least a few moments for our emotional wellbeing. On the topic of happiness, although I could ignore your posts I genuinely enjoy mocking you. While I might prefer you not to be present at all, if you are going to be here I can at least have a nice afternoon holding you up for ridicule. Since my happiness is something that you are concerned with, I imagine that this choice would serve as an alternative that we can both agree on!
Is the only path to happiness that you can find found in mockery?

Common ground is a vital component of any relationship, and it pleases me to think that we've achieved that today.
As you state so eloquently, you have found little happiness and the narrowing path you have chosen is bound to cause you much pain. We do not travel the same path, though the pain and the joy of discovery is there for all.

Can you not consider a new direction and see where it might bring you? At this point in your life there are still many ways you can go to be happy, won't you at least consider that there are alternatives?

You don't have to give up your academic or your professional life, just the way you approach the world and those who are also a part of it.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
as for anecdotal evidence. If the OP author wants to claim that dog fighting is bad in his neighborhood because of all the dead dogs he sees in his alleyway then fine.

But I hardly think that is a good premise to support the notion that California is collapsing because of dog fighting...

nope.
I think that you are missing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

As much as I would like to continue our little chat, I have a happy hour (hehehe!) to go to where the conversation will likely center on the Dutch women's field hockey team.

There are so many paths to enlightenment and I don't want to miss this one! :awe:
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
No where near the burden of propping up the failed American States that practice low wage, low benefit, low regulation economic policies.
California doesn't "Pay Federal" taxes.

This is a grossly misinterpreted and distorted view that the state is "paying the fed" via taxes. The state of California COLLECTS taxes for the Fed that private businesses or organizations owe the federal government which are then redistributed by the Fed based on their agenda or policies. Furthermore all businesses, individuals, etc pay state taxes on top of these federal taxes that the state helps to collect from certain entites.

Second the public pension system is one the major issues facing California that is quickly unraveling many cities in California. As of late 4 cities (Stockton, San Bernadino, Mammoth Lakes, Durate) have declared bankruptcy,

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/urban-game-changer/2012/jul/30/ca-cities-going-bankrupt-first-san-bernardino-now-/

An additional 8 cities are showing red flags.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Red-flags-over-cities-bankruptcy-filings-3707978.php

As of late Oakland, CA is facing a huge problem with its own public pension system which was established 30 years ago but since the "pass the buck" party was in charge back then and still dominates public office (CA Democrats) now one has really done a damn thing about it and now.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Oakland-s-financial-time-bomb-pensions-3743946.php#page-2

The budgetary issues facing CA are many but they are not because of a lack of revenue in the state. A perfect example is the complete boondoggle of prop 63 (The millianare's tax") passed in 2004 via the ballot box to help with mental health services in the state. Of which this tax has been up to this date completely mismanaged by the State. This tax has raised 7.4 billion dollars that no one has kept track of in terms of spending for mental health services however what is known is that much of it has been misappropriated to fund other local programs and bullshit like yoga classes for SF city workers, paying for horse riding lessons or used to prop up useless consultants and lobbyists for a law that has already been passed.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Calif-mental-health-dollars-bypassing-mentally-ill-3743239.php
 
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berzerker60

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2012
1,233
1
0
California doesn't "Pay Federal" taxes.

This is a grossly misinterpreted and distorted view that the state is "paying the fed" via taxes. The state of California COLLECTS taxes for the Fed that private businesses or organizations owe the federal government which are then redistributed by the Fed based on their agenda or policies. Furthermore all businesses, individuals, etc pay state taxes on top of these federal taxes that the state helps to collect from certain entites.

Second the public pension system is one the major issues facing California that is quickly unraveling many cities in California. As of late 4 cities (Stockton, San Bernadino, Mammoth Lakes, Durate) have declared bankruptcy,

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/urban-game-changer/2012/jul/30/ca-cities-going-bankrupt-first-san-bernardino-now-/

An additional 8 cities are showing red flags.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Red-flags-over-cities-bankruptcy-filings-3707978.php

As of late Oakland, CA is facing a huge problem with its own public pension system which was established 30 years ago but since the "pass the buck" party was in charge back then and still dominates public office (CA Democrats) now one has really done a damn thing about it and now.

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Oakland-s-financial-time-bomb-pensions-3743946.php#page-2

The budgetary issues facing CA are many but they are not because of a lack of revenue in the state. A perfect example is the complete boondoggle of prop 63 (The millianare's tax") passed in 2004 via the ballot box to help with mental health services in the state. Of which this tax has been up to this date completely mismanaged by the State. This tax has raised 7.4 billion dollars that no one has kept track of in terms of spending for mental health services however what is known is that much of it has been misappropriated to fund other local programs and bullshit like yoga classes for SF city workers, paying for horse riding lessons or used to prop up useless consultants and lobbyists for a law that has already been passed.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Calif-mental-health-dollars-bypassing-mentally-ill-3743239.php
Yeah pensions are actually a really difficult problem to unravel. In order to get good teachers/public workers despite relatively lower salaries, extremely generous pensions were promised for decades. However, the same legislators didn't bother with saving up money to PAY for these pensions, so now that they're coming due everyone is screwed - the public servants who accepted a contract with the state of lower wages for higher benefits/pensions, and the state who doesn't have the money. Republicans (should) hate reneging on pensions because it's a violation of a legal contract and Democrats hate it because it screws teachers and public employees, but both also don't want to bother allocating the money from their pet programs.

The "pass the buck" party is every party. Longterm rational planning is nowhere near as politically attractive as MORE POLICE TO KEEP OUT THE TERRORISTS or MORE TEACHERS ALWAYS AND PAY MORE NO MATTER THE RESULTS.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
2,581
313
126
Given this the writer's resume, I am surprised at how poorly it is written. And I dont mean the writing style itself, the man can write. For something positioned as an "article" it is long on rhetoric and personal fears and very short on anything substantive.

How can you opine on the "health" of California without mentioning the initiative system? Not once! No instead we get a pageful of all the usual right-wing tropes about California.

Rush Limbaugh called, he wants his material back.

Pathetic.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,297
127
106
I think that you are missing the forest for the trees, so to speak.

As much as I would like to continue our little chat, I have a happy hour (hehehe!) to go to where the conversation will likely center on the Dutch women's field hockey team.

There are so many paths to enlightenment and I don't want to miss this one! :awe:
In other words, you have no response to the point I was trying to make.

Yes please, go oogle beautiful women that you have absolutely no chance of ever gaining their attention. A pastime I am sure you are familiar with.

As for the "forest through the trees" comment. If the Author wants to make a point about civil decay, why attempt to force it into a partisan lense? I think I would actually agree with the OP author if his main point was the absence of civility, common sense, responsibility, and/or ethics in everyday social interaction... but no, he wanted to paint the "collapse" of California as something that democrats (Californian Government) are responsible for.

That just doesn't work for me, in my humble opinion.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
8,984
84
91
First off California doesn't pay jack shit to the federal government. Companies like Apple, facebook, and other high revenue companies along with wealthy CEOs pay a lot of money to the federal government. These companies and wealthy people happen to be located in California.

Because I am sure the way the state legislature works the budget and other laws has no effect on California's budgetary woes.
This. What does California have in common with a red-state like mine? They both like to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to the taxation/spending equation. If it is easy to increase one and not the other, you will have problems. This is California's problem right now. My state, it is difficult to do damn near anything due to the 1901 constitution. California is light-years ahead when it comes to governance. They will be fine.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
Wealthy people don't happen to be located in CA.

They choose to live here because of the climate, culture, and people that inhabit this state.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
638
126
Ah, the old donor state argument. The progs need some new material. No basis in anything even remotely based in reality and an argument diametrically opposed to the values they purport to cherish. Notwithstanding that the donor state argument is entirely bogus, if they truly embraced the ideology they would like us all to believe they embrace, they'd be happy to give their money to help the poorer states.

I sometimes wonder how it is that they don't implode from the conflicting thoughts within their own minds. It sounds like a living hell to me. A very tortured existance.
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
Actually, Victor Davis Hanson is one of the nation's, if not the world's leading historians, especially in the field of military history. He writings on both ancient and modern history are some of the best reading you might ever do.

Victor Davis Hanson is the Martin and Illie Anderson Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution.

Hanson was a National Endowment for the Humanities fellow at the Center for Advanced Studies in the Behavioral Sciences, Stanford, California (1992–93), a visiting professor of classics at Stanford University (1991–92), and alumnus of the year of the University of California, Santa Cruz (2002). and Fellow in California Studies at the Claremont Institute, hence his commentary on California.

Hanson was awarded the National Humanities Medal in 2007, the Claremont Institute's Statesmanship Award at its annual Churchill Dinner, and the $250,000 Bradley prize from the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation in 2008.

His books and the Web published Private Papers are always extraordinarily insightful and well researched.

Hanson is a registered member of the Democratic Party, but don't hold that against him.

As always, there is a Wiki that provides a brief overview of who he is -

Victor Davis Hanson
Where ya been? Good to see ya back in these parts!
 

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