The Circle is complete, children returned to parents

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/...polygamists/index.html


SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) -- A Texas judge on Monday signed an order allowing more than 440 children seized from a polygamist sect to be returned to the custody of their parents.

Judge Barbara Walther told the Department of Family and Protective Services to allow parents to pick up their children starting at 10 a.m. CT (11 a.m. ET) Monday.

The Texas Supreme Court on Thursday let stand a lower court's ruling that the state had no right to remove them during an April raid on the Yearning for Zion ranch near Eldorado.

Some parents have children at different facilities across the state, and it could take some time to pick up their kids.

Under the judge's order, the Department of Family and Protective Services will still have the right to visit and interview the children.

Those visits, which will be unannounced, could entail medical, psychological and psychiatric examinations, and the parents must not intervene.

Also under the order, the parents must attend and complete parenting classes. The families must remain in the state of Texas and notify the department within 48 hours of any trips more than 100 miles from their homes.

The YFZ ranch is run by the the Fundamental Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.

The FLDS is not affiliated with the mainstream Mormon church, which renounced polygamy more than a century ago.

The state of Texas maintained it removed the children in April because interviews at the ranch uncovered a "pervasive pattern" of sexual abuse through forced marriages between underage girls and older men. The state alleged that young boys on the ranch were groomed to be perpetrators because of those beliefs.

FLDS members deny any sexual abuse and say they are being persecuted because of their religion.

In May, the 3rd District Court of Appeals ruled that officials erred in removing the children from the ranch, effectively overturning Walther's ruling that the children remain in state custody. See a timeline of the FLDS case »
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"The kids have been terrorized and put in the custody of the state for weeks and weeks," FLDS spokesman Willie Jessop said Friday after a hearing to determine how to return the children.

"Every effort has been made to bring relief," Jessop said outside the courthouse. "It doesn't need to be a problem to go pick up the kids. It doesn't need to be any more difficult than picking them up after school.

Not really sure what kind of comment I can put here besides the fact I hope the people responsible for this raid are not allowed to be in a position to make decisions like this again.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
0
76
Were any of the pregnant women under age?

Edit: To clarify, I'm not fishing with that question. I read there were 30+ then the number went down to 20-something and then they didn't know if there were any.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Robor
Were any of the pregnant women under age?

Though the article did not say I would assume not as that would be grounds to keep the children in state custody.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,425
7,485
136
We can rest assured knowing they were guilty until proven innocent. :|
 

Kappo

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2000
2,381
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
We can rest assured knowing they were guilty until proven innocent. :|

This doesn't apply if they believe in anything resembling Christianity.

How much you want to bet that they dont get looked at twice if they are Muslim?
 

GRIFFIN1

Golden Member
Nov 10, 1999
1,403
6
81
I'm looking forward to seeing how much Texas is going to have to pay for each child that was taken from their homes.
 

BassBomb

Diamond Member
Nov 25, 2005
8,396
1
81
Originally posted by: Kappo
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
We can rest assured knowing they were guilty until proven innocent. :|

This doesn't apply if they believe in anything resembling Christianity.

How much you want to bet that they dont get looked at twice if they are Muslim?

Probably would have jailed up the men fast. I am Muslim and I don't want an extra wife if I get married.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,133
219
106
Originally posted by: RichardE
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/...polygamists/index.html


Not really sure what kind of comment I can put here besides the fact I hope the people responsible for this raid are not allowed to be in a position to make decisions like this again.

Why?

If this was a police raid on a crack house only to find they were making sugar dumplings .... Would you want them to continue to try to stop Crack from spreading in your town?

Cops are human and make mistakes just like you do... So....... Yes, they should continue on....
 

Kappo

Platinum Member
Aug 18, 2000
2,381
0
0
Originally posted by: BassBomb
Originally posted by: Kappo
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
We can rest assured knowing they were guilty until proven innocent. :|

This doesn't apply if they believe in anything resembling Christianity.

How much you want to bet that they dont get looked at twice if they are Muslim?

Probably would have jailed up the men fast. I am Muslim and I don't want an extra wife if I get married.

Short of them thinking that it was a terrorist training camp, probably not. The US is afraid to infringe on any religion other than Christianity ATM.

At least we both agree that even one wife can be to many at times :p
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
326
126
It's about time. Great to see the kids back wit their parents even if their religous practices are out of the ordinary.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
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This had all the makings of another Ruby Ridge or a Waco type incident, completer with government hype. Thankfully it was handled non violently, now in the fullness future time, hopefully we will find out who in Texas Government over hyped. The big loser has been the taxpayers of Texas who have seen their state government waste many millions of dollars. And when the lawsuits start, and the payouts come home to roost, the winner here may be due process of law which should never be forgotten.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: RichardE
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/...polygamists/index.html


Not really sure what kind of comment I can put here besides the fact I hope the people responsible for this raid are not allowed to be in a position to make decisions like this again.

Why?

If this was a police raid on a crack house only to find they were making sugar dumplings .... Would you want them to continue to try to stop Crack from spreading in your town?

Cops are human and make mistakes just like you do... So....... Yes, they should continue on....

If the police took an anonymous phone call tip to bust in and destroy people lives, I wouldn't want them making decisions either. This was not a through investigation before the raid. It would be like me calling the cops saying "yeah...I heard Ericlp molests his daughter /click" and than you have a swat team raiding your house, throwing you in jail, taking away your daughter for a few months as she is subject to hundreds of tests to see if you were molesting her.
 

woodie1

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2000
5,947
0
0
One should remember that the CPS people had permission from a Judge to do what they did. CPS presented their case and the Judge could have stopped this right then instead of giving CPS permission to seize all the children. The whole thing is a big mess IMHO with plenty of blame to go around.
 

mxyzptlk

Golden Member
Apr 18, 2008
1,893
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Not quite complete.. there's still the final step where we find out that there were/are horrible acts of molestation and exploitation taking place, but due to incompetent law enforcement/politics, the guilty go free while the innocent continue to suffer..

I really, really, REALLY hope I'm wrong though :(
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
326
126
Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
Not quite complete.. there's still the final step where we find out that there were/are horrible acts of molestation and exploitation taking place, but due to incompetent law enforcement/politics, the guilty go free while the innocent continue to suffer..

I really, really, REALLY hope I'm wrong though :(

I hope you are wrong too, and there possibly were isolated cases of incest/rape (underage sex). But to take away all 400+ children because you did not know which child was molested was way more than wrong.

The idea that a government can take as happened here with no specific evidence shold give us all pause. Yes a judge decided and that is the scariest part. That judge or any judge should know the CPS had no case.

But in this environment of the "government knows best", these types of incidents will happen because "it's for your own good" or "we're protecting the children" or some other made up reason to justify a taking of your rights.
 

GuitarDaddy

Lifer
Nov 9, 2004
11,465
1
0
I beleive the state acted correctly in initially taking custody of the children.
I also beleive the current ruling to return the majority of them to there parents is also correct, however as a part of the agreement they should seize and close the compound
and disperse the residents
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
I beleive the state acted correctly in initially taking custody of the children.
I also beleive the current ruling to return the majority of them to there parents is also correct, however as a part of the agreement they should seize and close the compound
and disperse the residents

Why?
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Originally posted by: GuitarDaddy
I beleive the state acted correctly in initially taking custody of the children.
I also beleive the current ruling to return the majority of them to there parents is also correct, however as a part of the agreement they should seize and close the compound
and disperse the residents


CROWD:
A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!
VILLAGER #1:
We have found a witch. May we burn her?

CROWD:
Burn her! Burn! Burn her! Burn her!
BEDEVERE:
How do you know she is a witch?
VILLAGER #2:
She looks like one.
CROWD:
Right! Yeah! Yeah!
BEDEVERE:
Bring her forward.
WITCH:
I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.
BEDEVERE:
Uh, but you are dressed as one.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I've followed this group for a few years reading tidbits here and there. IMO they Bunch of sickos who have been victimizing young boys (via explosion) and young women (via forced young marriage to chosen adult males) for decades. They even victimize the federal and state govts in towns they control via welfare/controlling PD's and total corruption.

This is a tough nut to crack since most females are brainwashed to see this as normal and will lie to authorities to protect the perpetrators. e.g 'unwed mother' Law enforcement infiltration is impossible due to closed nature of the group. I can understand why state prosecutors have decided to throw book out the window with these groups same way I understand the whole washbroading and torture of terrorists. Out of frustration and wanting quick results the authorities did the right thing IMO but not a legal one. Sad deal all around because by following the law a group like this will continue to victimize the young for decades more.

 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,035
8,717
136
Originally posted by: Zebo
I've followed this group for a few years reading tidbits here and there. IMO they Bunch of sickos who have been victimizing young boys (via explosion) and young women (via forced young marriage to chosen adult males) for decades. They even victimize the federal and state govts in towns they control via welfare/controlling PD's and total corruption.

This is a tough nut to crack since most females are brainwashed to see this as normal and will lie to authorities to protect the perpetrators. e.g 'unwed mother' Law enforcement infiltration is impossible due to closed nature of the group. I can understand why state prosecutors have decided to throw book out the window with these groups same way I understand the whole washbroading and torture of terrorists. Out of frustration and wanting quick results the authorities did the right thing IMO but not a legal one. Sad deal all around because by following the law a group like this will continue to victimize the young for decades more.

What Zebo said.

 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,948
130
106
Originally posted by: GRIFFIN1
I'm looking forward to seeing how much Texas is going to have to pay for each child that was taken from their homes.



..texas tax payers will get screwed for this reckless liberal stunt.
 

m1ldslide1

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2006
2,321
0
0
Originally posted by: IGBT
Originally posted by: GRIFFIN1
I'm looking forward to seeing how much Texas is going to have to pay for each child that was taken from their homes.



..texas tax payers will get screwed for this reckless liberal stunt.

Wait a minute, I thought that legislating who you can't marry or adopt was a conservative tactic?

At least it wasn't as bad as that liberal earthquake in china. Stupid liberals killed like 30,000 people.
 

Skyclad1uhm1

Lifer
Aug 10, 2001
11,383
87
91
Originally posted by: dphantom
It's about time. Great to see the kids back wit their parents even if their religous practices are out of the ordinary.

Those poor men had to go without raping underage girls for quite a while now... :roll:
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,830
3
0
It's a testament to public stupidity that instead of "we need to figure out how to stop these people from having sex with underage girls and end the culture of victimization of women" the attitude is "yay they're getting back their kids" as if a child is some kind of unalienable right, and as if a child doesn't have rights as a citizen to not be molested. Meanwhile, no one wants an 18 year old guy who had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend living in their neighborhood. I guess religion works great as a smokescreen, once again.


BTW, pubescent girls are NOT being returned.
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
It's a testament to public stupidity that instead of "we need to figure out how to stop these people from having sex with underage girls and end the culture of victimization of women" the attitude is "yay they're getting back their kids" as if a child is some kind of unalienable right, and as if a child doesn't have rights as a citizen to not be molested. Meanwhile, no one wants an 18 year old guy who had sex with his 17 year old girlfriend living in their neighborhood. I guess religion works great as a smokescreen, once again.


BTW, pubescent girls are NOT being returned.

yes they are. all but a few that they have proof that are underage and have had sex are (wich reports up to 5).

so yes the pubescent girls ARE being returned.