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"The China Question" Documentary

sunzt

sunzt

Diamond Member
If anyone hasn't seen it yet, I highly suggest you DVR this if it comes up again on CNBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bu6cSo5sXc

http://thechinaquestion.com/


A very fair, balanced, and honest documentary discussing Sino-American relations and economics, current challenges facing each country, history of how china got to its current place include discussion of its censorship and social issues, history of how the relationship go to its current state, and future of each country.

In summary:
-US & foreign companies are naive
-China doesn't really need things "made" in America or other foreign countries except food and energy
-China's hukou residency system segregates rural and urban workers which guarantees itself cheap labor from rural residents.
-The cheap laborers don't have much room for improvement, but is still a big improvement than working in the countryside so they are ok with what they are making and their work hours.
-Few young people know or care about June 4th in China
-#1 beneficiaries from China manufacturing are foreign corporations who buy and sell the stuff made in china
-US has no good option in dealing with china. If US sells arms to Taiwan, China says "ok then we will sell to Iran". If US talks to dali lama, China says "ok we will talk to some people in Afganistan and Pakistan".
-the US must invest in its only remaining competitive advantage, research universities & innovation to stay on top, but that's not happening. If the US doesn't do this then the Chinese will eventually replace US innovation with its army of engineers since US companies are giving up IP for sales (auto makers) and due to theft. China's current tactics of importing IP is only a short term measure until their creativity catches up.
-China has an incredibly long view and planning horizon often thinking decades ahead
-China leaders spend much more time planning their US relations than US leaders do about China
-US voters and leaders sacrifice long term objectives for short term convenience. US leaders and voters don't have the stomach to make the tough long term decisions that are needed to fix the country
-Overall paints a not pretty picture for the future of US if the current system and politics continue no matter which party is in power, whereas the Chinese have already made the tough decisions and long term planning needed to become a superpower.
 
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That's kind of the problem with American democracy, it's incredibly hard to get things done when you have gridlock... OTOH, you have major human rights violations in China, but decisions just steam forward ahead (they have some very impressive infrastructure projects that would NEVER happen in the states). Pick your poison.
 
To pick one of the points about China's long-term planning, this is one more way that Wall Street screws our society by pressuring firms to prioritize the current quarter profits over long-term profits. If you talk to Fortune 500 leaders and they're honest, this is one of their larger complaints. But it increases the short-term profits for Wall Street.
 
Just watched this documentary on CNBC with the family. I thought that it spread itself a bit too thin. It talked about too many things in too short a time. For someone with very little background knowledge about China, it's a decent place to start. My dad (who grew up in Taiwan, but moved to the US to get his masters and PhD) is of the opinion that the US has too much of a US-centric view of the world and world events. I do envy the decisiveness and commitment to long term progress that is present in Chinese policy-making. Personally, I think the governing body in China can slowly incorporate democratic values while still retaining their commitment to strong economic policy, at which point the democratic system in the US will look even more ridiculous than it does now. People don't care so much about democracy vs communist as much as they just want GOOD POLICY. You could have a monarchy for all I care, but if the king and his advisers are legislating good policy I think people would be fine with it.
 
Sino-American relations ultimately comes down to the following facts.
Before trade and Nixon opening up relations with China, the US was strong without China. Now, China is getting stronger and the US is weakening. China has everything to gain from trade and open relations. All the US gets is cheaper phones. Not worth it. It's even more frustrating because it's obvious that China doesn't really give a shit about free trade or any other fundamental principles. It's a China-first at everyone else's expense policy.
 
Denbo1991 said:
You could have a monarchy for all I care, but if the king and his advisers are legislating good policy I think people would be fine with it.
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A common fallacy there is not understanding the inherent cause and effect of the system and 'good policy'.

The nature of a real democracy has the people doing what they think is in their interest, while a monarch has different things he thinks are in his.

It's not as if each just randomly comes up with policies, though there are variations and exceptions occasionally.

Funny thing is, from what I hear China's government might be more afraid of its people than our democracy's government, including its backers, is of ours.

I hear they've made a deal with the people, prosperity if the people don't ask for 'rights'.

Maybe we're doing the opposite - protecting the right to buy any light bulb you want, while the wealthy turn the country into a plutocracy looting the people's wealth.
 
Fair and balanced?

Let see, China needs to address these problems (note the plural) before it can become a big cheese.

1. Corruption.
2. Growing gap between the majority dirt poor people vs. a small number of filty rich (getting rich by #1).
3. Uprisings in Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang from the natives and even from the Han themselves - http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2011/06/28/explosive-china/
4. Water crisis (not problem but crisis) - http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/10/chinas-growing-water-crisis/
5. Environmental pollution crisis - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/08/26/world/asia/20070826_CHINA_GRAPHIC.html#
Pictures = http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
6. Growing number of elders and decreasing number of young people to support them (getting old before getting rich).
7. Growing debt - http://the-diplomat.com/2011/07/05/china%e2%80%99s-ticking-debt-bomb/
8. Property bubble - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304906004576367121835831168.html
9. Remember the Three Gorges dam? - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/20/three-gorges-dam-china-warning
10. Food safety - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/29/business/la-fi-china-food-20110429

I do totally agree about the short term of US vs. long term of China.

Will add more later.
 
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piasabird said:
It is hard to stop a country full of workers that will work from 4:00 am till 10:00pm every day.
Click to expand...

LOL!

Don't confuse effort with results.

There is a big battle going on in China as we speak. That's the battle for control/power. Will it be the current "emperor" class of the leftover "communist" leaders or will it be the people who have seen freedom and liberty and want all they can get?

It's an important struggle.
 
Svnla said:
Fair and balanced?

Let see, China needs to address these problems (note the plural) before it can become a big cheese.

1. Corruption.
2. Growing gap between the majority dirt poor people vs. a small number of filty rich (getting rich by #1).
3. Uprisings in Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang from the natives and even from the Han themselves - http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2011/06/28/explosive-china/
4. Water crisis (not problem but crisis) - http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/10/chinas-growing-water-crisis/
5. Environmental pollution crisis - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/08/26/world/asia/20070826_CHINA_GRAPHIC.html#
Pictures = http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
6. Growing number of elders and decreasing number of young people to support them (getting old before getting rich).
7. Growing debt - http://the-diplomat.com/2011/07/05/china’s-ticking-debt-bomb/
8. Property bubble - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304906004576367121835831168.html
9. Remember the Three Gorges dam? - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/20/three-gorges-dam-china-warning
10. Food safety - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/29/business/la-fi-china-food-20110429

I do totally agree about the short term of US vs. long term of China.

Will add more later.
Click to expand...

These are exactly the reasons China cant cant continue on their current track. Theyre overloading their infrastructure, theyre destroying their environment, and sooner or later the new working class will come to their senses. I completely disagree China is thinking long term because all the reasons you've listed will be their downfall.
 
This is actually an interesting criticism of the US in that the politicians have to worry about reelection. They don't in China in the same degree and thus can exercise their goals better. Most politicians in the US have goals but the political system quickly stamps those to dust and replaced all with reelection, which requires corporate money. And thus whatever corporations want to happen that happens.
 
Svnla said:
Fair and balanced?

Let see, China needs to address these problems (note the plural) before it can become a big cheese.

1. Corruption.
2. Growing gap between the majority dirt poor people vs. a small number of filty rich (getting rich by #1).
3. Uprisings in Tibet, Inner Mongolia, Xinjiang from the natives and even from the Han themselves - http://the-diplomat.com/china-power/2011/06/28/explosive-china/
4. Water crisis (not problem but crisis) - http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/10/chinas-growing-water-crisis/
5. Environmental pollution crisis - http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/08/26/world/asia/20070826_CHINA_GRAPHIC.html#
Pictures = http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
6. Growing number of elders and decreasing number of young people to support them (getting old before getting rich).
7. Growing debt - http://the-diplomat.com/2011/07/05/china%e2%80%99s-ticking-debt-bomb/
8. Property bubble - http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304906004576367121835831168.html
9. Remember the Three Gorges dam? - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/20/three-gorges-dam-china-warning
10. Food safety - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/apr/29/business/la-fi-china-food-20110429

I do totally agree about the short term of US vs. long term of China.

Will add more later.
Click to expand...

I agree with all these problems, and i've discussed China's many challenges before. The big difference is that China fears its citizens enough to work on fixing these issues and they have the capability to plan long term in order to resolve these issues. Whereas in the US, the leaders don't fear its citizens, but rather manipulates them into believing it's always the other guy's fault and tosses candy around to its citizens to appease them rather than actually solving issues without partisan ideology dictating solutions.
 
Doppel said:
This is actually an interesting criticism of the US in that the politicians have to worry about reelection. They don't in China in the same degree and thus can exercise their goals better. Most politicians in the US have goals but the political system quickly stamps those to dust and replaced all with reelection, which requires corporate money. And thus whatever corporations want to happen that happens.
Click to expand...

Yup. Every 2 years, for 2 years, the US leaders waste time posturing for the next election. Huge waste of time and failure of leadership.
 
sunzt said:
I agree with all these problems, and i've discussed China's many challenges before. The big difference is that China fears its citizens enough to work on fixing these issues and they have the capability to plan long term in order to resolve these issues. Whereas in the US, the leaders don't fear its citizens, but rather manipulates them into believing it's always the other guy's fault and tosses candy around to its citizens to appease them rather than actually solving issues without partisan ideology dictating solutions.
Click to expand...


sunzt said:
Yup. Every 2 years, for 2 years, the US leaders waste time posturing for the next election. Huge waste of time and failure of leadership.
Click to expand...

Very probable :
These remarks caused an deafening teeth grinding sound among a lot of the US based readers.

🙂
 
Yes, the Wall Street emphasis on quarterly profits in the short term is very disturbing, in that because of it we see examples where companies willingly give IP to China in exchange for those short term profits. It's incredibly foolish; China should be regarded as a country that is not a friend, and probably even as an enemy of the US. We are essentially at war for the future.
 
Kadarin said:
Yes, the Wall Street emphasis on quarterly profits in the short term is very disturbing, in that because of it we see examples where companies willingly give IP to China in exchange for those short term profits. It's incredibly foolish; China should be regarded as a country that is not a friend, and probably even as an enemy of the US. We are essentially at war for the future.
Click to expand...


The ironic thing is... as the US economy worsens, the more its citizens rely on cheap Chinese products.
 
sunzt said:
The ironic thing is... as the US economy worsens, the more its citizens rely on cheap Chinese products.
Click to expand...

I'd buy products made in the US if I could (and would even pay a bit extra for them), but everything is made in China these days.
 
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