The case for the $320,000 teacher

[Fear No Evil]

So can we actually charge bad teachers then? Like make them pay a penalty?

 

[Alienwho]

You'd think an award winning economist would understand the concept of supply and demand. You know, the reason why teachers are paid under $30k in my state is these people are competing for jobs against their sisters, moms and friends.

I have zero tolerance for bitching teachers anymore. Nearly every woman on my wife's side of the family is a teacher and family gatherings are like a teachers union meeting with nothing but complaints as to how they don't get paid any money and they can't find any jobs. Yeah well of course, the supply is through the roof and none of you are really very smart. I am absolutely flabbergasted at the things my mother in law/sisters in law say sometimes or the very basic things they don't know.

The only hard skill these people possess is the ability to tolerate children for extended periods of time. Frankly I couldn't even consider being an elementary school teacher for under $200,000 myself, but these women fight to do it for $30k. That's their own fault.

IMO teachers should at the very least have to minor in business, instead of all the bullcrap child development or whatever classes they take. Maybe then they would figure it out.

 

[silverpig]

So can we actually charge bad teachers then? Like make them pay a penalty?

No... just pay them what they're worth. If they do nothing and are just babysitters, give them $8/hr and refrigerator privileges after a probationary period.

 

[uclaLabrat]

STOP FUNDING SUCH RESEARCH WITH TAX PAYER'S $$$$$$... god...

This is terrible, this idea.

 

[silverpig]

You'd think an award winning economist would understand the concept of supply and demand. You know, the reason why teachers are paid under $30k in my state is these people are competing for jobs against their sisters, moms and friends.

I have zero tolerance for bitching teachers anymore. Nearly every woman on my wife's side of the family is a teacher and family gatherings are like a teachers union meeting with nothing but complaints as to how they don't get paid any money and they can't find any jobs. Yeah well of course, the supply is through the roof and none of you are really very smart. I am absolutely flabbergasted at the things my mother in law/sisters in law say sometimes or the very basic things they don't know.

The only hard skill these people possess is the ability to tolerate children for extended periods of time. Frankly I couldn't even consider being an elementary school teacher for under $200,000 myself, but these women fight to do it for $30k. That's their own fault.

IMO teachers should at the very least have to minor in business, instead of all the bullcrap child development or whatever classes they take. Maybe then they would figure it out.

He probably understands it just fine. He estimated the value that a good teacher brings to the economy each year. That's independent of supply and demand.

 

[Gibson486]

Here's how I see it. The public system should have average teachers who get paid a relatively low wage, around 45-65k max. Then, there should be a separate private system where teachers can be paid whatever the fuck they want. That separate system will not be financed by taxpayer dollars. If you want the best, you need to pay for the best.

45-65k is not a low wage....

 

[Gigantopithecus]

No... just pay them what they're worth. If they do nothing and are just babysitters, give them $8/hr and refrigerator privileges after a probationary period.

Ha ha. You mean pay good teachers more than bad teachers? Who opposes this more vociferously than anyone else? Why, the teachers' unions, of course!

Bu bu bu but you can't quantify success as a teacher!

 

[Regs]

They discounted the present day value of 30 students estimated cash flows? I'm not exactly sure those students are even on the same demand curve as the teachers? O_O confused.

That's like saying my car is actually worth 2 million for 15 years because it got me back and fourth to my job.

 

[nonameo]

Ha ha. You mean pay good teachers more than bad teachers? Who opposes this more vociferously than anyone else? Why, the teachers' unions, of course!

Bu bu bu but you can't quantify success as a teacher!

I do think better teachers should be paid more, but unfortunately its hard to quantify "success", because its defined differently by every person. For instance, who is more successful? the person who makes 70k a year, but is unhappy with his/her job and is in a mountain of debt(however this mountain doesn't drag them down to the equivalent of 40k per year), or the person who makes 40k but is debt free and happy with their job?

 

[silverpig]

I do think better teachers should be paid more, but unfortunately its hard to quantify "success", because its defined differently by every person. For instance, who is more successful? the person who makes 70k a year, but is unhappy with his/her job and is in a mountain of debt(however this mountain doesn't drag them down to the equivalent of 40k per year), or the person who makes 40k but is debt free and happy with their job?

Since we're talking financial worth, then the $70k/yr person is more successful. The teacher who taught the other guy could get a card and cookies once a year

 

[silverpig]

They discounted the present day value of 30 students estimated cash flows? I'm not exactly sure those students are even on the same demand curve as the teachers? O_O confused.

That's like saying my car is actually worth 2 million for 15 years because it got me back and fourth to my job.

Not the entirety of their cash flows, just the incremental gain.

I don't know what discount rate they applied, but it's probably in the original paper. Might read it later tonight.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I do think better teachers should be paid more, but unfortunately its hard to quantify "success", because its defined differently by every person. For instance, who is more successful? the person who makes 70k a year, but is unhappy with his/her job and is in a mountain of debt(however this mountain doesn't drag them down to the equivalent of 40k per year), or the person who makes 40k but is debt free and happy with their job?

I know what works at the university level. If 90%+ of your student evaluations are positive, and you write letters of rec that get them jobs and grad school admissions because you take the time to talk to them about their futures, you're a good teacher. Unfortunately what works here wouldn't necessarily work at the K-12 level. For one, I don't have to deal with parents. For two, I know what my students need to learn to be successful in grad school, so they are subsequently successful (another metric) - many K-12 teachers are education majors who don't even really know the material they're teaching (and it shows when their students get to campus).

 

[Alienwho]

He probably understands it just fine. He estimated the value that a good teacher brings to the economy each year. That's independent of supply and demand.

Yeah I get what the guy is trying to say, and he can make up all figures and dollar amounts he wants(my favorite high school teacher taught me that liars figure and figures lie) to try to figure out the "worth", but in the real world "worth" is determined by that old supply and demand chart we all fall back to where the x and y axis intersect.

Value added doesn't mean crap either whens supply and demand will determine your worth. Plenty of low level grunts can add hundreds of thousands of dollars of value to their company's per year but still only get paid $8/hr. Just because they're adding tons of value doesn't mean they are valuable when there is a never ending line looking to fill that spot.

I guess my point is reading this kind of stuff is interesting and can help us open up our perceptions but at the end of the day speculating about all this stuff is a waste because it's all conjecture. No kindergarten teacher will ever be paid the $320,000 this guy pulls out of thin air, whether said teacher truly add's that much value to society or not. In the real world nobody is ever compensated for the value they input. Half the people on this forum are making somebody else rich by adding way more value than they are being compensated for. The other half of this forum is probably adding negative value to their respective company by using company resources and being paid to troll on ATOT all day, but everybody is still getting paid roughly the same wage.

Silverpig I'm not directing this toward you or trying to debate btw, I'm just blathering so don't take it personal.

 

[rudder]

I'm not sure if I agree with that ... true that parents have a big impact on the kids, but at the same time so does the teachers. I mean they spend 4-6hrs w/ the kids and they are able to instill good work ethics and discipline. The other important factor that's missed are the friends, at that age, hell even at high school, kids are easily influenced by their friends.

So if the teacher is able to create the right environment, all the kids will shift up as group. So yes, I think there should be a strong emphasis put on the teachers.

My wife is a teacher. She has to deal with cocky little kids who don't listen or respect their parents. Thus they transfer those behavioral problems to the classroom. My wife is very limited in what action she can take. The school district is fearful of lawsuits. If it's a black kid with a mom with some race cards in her purse... look out (I know from her experience).

A teacher can motivate a child, give them self confidence, etc.. but ultimately she sends them up the chain and school gets harder and the kids parents care less... it would be the rare case that takes what she did and turns it positive. There is a big push here in TN by the governor to increase funding for pre-k. Basically this is daycare for poor kids or kids from divorced homes. It gives them a head start. However studies have shown that by the 4th or 5th grade... there is no benefit for those kids to be in pre-k. That is where the parents fail. Teachers can give that much attention to an individual student.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

I didn't see it in the article, but does the $320,000 figure account for varying standard of living costs?

In any event, I agree that teachers are underpaid, and our union here in BC is retarded. The job of a teacher is (or should be) not just to instruct a specified curriculum, but to inspire curiosity and a thirst for learning and discovery in students, in whatever capacity they choose.

Even for students who don't excel at standardized testing and studying, they can be exposed to different disciplines (art, music, etc.) and learn critical thinking skills. These concepts begin in kindergarten-age children and only become more important as children grow.

Everything we do has spin-off effects. If we reward better teachers, they will continue to produce better students who are happier, more productive, law-abiding, and less costly to society in the long run.

 

[thepd7]

That's assuming of course all that $320,000 worth of hard work isn't negated by bad parenting.

True

Teachers are overrated, parenting is underrated

under done.

This. I don't think anyone underrates parenting, some people just don't give a shit because they never wanted kids in the first place.

 

[Homerboy]

True Dat. Parents are the ones that are supposed to teach work ethic, morals, discipline, etc. Kindergarten teachers need to show my child how to cut circles out of construction paper. As long as they keep the learning environment enjoyable... they are good to do.

Oh but not squares or triangles? You're nothing but a shapist!

 

[Gibsons]

Make the teaching jobs worth 320k/year and we'd see a lot more talented people going into teaching instead of say, middle management or law. Win?

 

[Homerboy]

Make the teaching jobs worth 320k/year and we'd see a lot more talented people going into teaching instead of say, middle management or law. Win?

While I understand your point, are you seriously saying ther are talented people in middle management positions?

 

[MrMatt]

You don't need good teachers to be successful. You just need parents who aren't profoundly retarded.

I'll give an example of how this works. One of my cousins is a kid who dislikes school, but he's doing quite well because his dad is helping him become a welding apprentice. Welding pays a hell of a lot more than most jobs.

My mom would work with me outside of class on most of my science & math stuff. She would quiz me before tests, etc. I had some horrid teachers HORRID, but I still got a lot out of the classes because of the texts we had to read, and help from my mom

 

[InflatableBuddha]

Make the teaching jobs worth 320k/year and we'd see a lot more talented people going into teaching instead of say, middle management or law. Win?

"Sit your ass down and cut out those circles and squares before I:"

a) put you on a probationary performance plan
b) slap you with a lawsuit

:hmm: Somehow I think it still takes a certain personality type to be a talented teacher.

 

[SP33Demon]

Not that I don't agree with you in part, but to play devil's advocate: it doesn't take a lot to learn the rules of baseball and football. Lots of people can play the sport. It doesn't make sense to justify a 1000-fold salary for pro NFL and MBA players.

1000-fold is what supply and demand dictates through fans of the sport. You cannot really "play the sport" for money unless you are of extremely rare ability. Whereas teachers of any skill level can get paid (assuming they can pass a Praxis exam which most education majors can do) and get hired.

 

[silverpig]

Make the teaching jobs worth 320k/year and we'd see a lot more talented people going into teaching instead of say, middle management or law. Win?

I don't think the article suggests paying them $320,000, just that's what they produce above and beyond a "normal" teacher. It might be reasonable to give them say, 1/8th of that amount above and beyond a normal teacher's wage... $40k bonus for the kickass teachers...

 

[kalrith]

The biggest thing I take from this article is that teachers should be paid based on performance, and there should be a big difference in the salary of the best-performing and worst-performing teacher. Unfortunately if the worst-performing teacher has been doing it for 30 years and the best-performing teacher for 5 years, the former will be earning much more than the latter.

 

[oddyager]

1000-fold is what supply and demand dictates through fans of the sport. You cannot really "play the sport" for money unless you are of extremely rare ability. Whereas teachers of any skill level can get paid (assuming they can pass a Praxis exam which most education majors can do) and get hired.

Not sure that would be a proper analogy either. Athletes work in a multi-billion dollar industry. Teachers work under a city budget. Now if certain public officials cutback on salary (like those $200K folks in state gov that just work on outlook calendar and schedule events), then that could work.