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The Big Bang blows atheism sky high

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John Connor said:
Are you actually saying that people who believe in a "God" are not very smart?

LOL! I wonder how many astronauts for example believe in God and in fact had their faith reenforced by going into space? :hmm:
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No, i am not saying that people who believe in God are not smart. It is not a single variable. I am just trying to write that children would be better of when we actually teach them from beginning on to do critical thinking. When you try to make a story about how the universe works, critical thinking is needed.

When you talk about a certain person walking on water, you do have to ask yourself how does that person do that. And you can still believe in it while having faith that one day you might understand how that person could have done that. You might also get the idea in your head that it was nonsense.
Critical thinking and discussing.
When you have parents that do not allow critical thinking (especially the religious kind), you might end up with what we see today. That some folks rather believe that the earth is 12000 years old, the dinosaurs are planted and that all science is the devils work.

I would rather agree with a religious person who says that Gods creation of the universe allows for all scientific evidence to be correct for the universe can really be billions of years old or even older. For after all, God is almighty. We have our free choice. So, there is no gods plan for every individual because then there would not be free choice. Life just happens and we can make the best of it. Unfortunately, we are destroying our "Garden of Eden" at a rapid rate, hating each other because of different views on life. Hell is not hot, it is rather cold. Near 0K to be exact. If us humans waste this chance, tough luck. Life will go on, long after this solar system is gone. It is all about self-assembly. When there is another "goldilocks" or "Garden of Eden" zone. Life will develop into more complex organisms again. When the environment is really harsh, it helps to be as simple and as fast self copying as possible to increase the survival rate. But when the environment is more favorable, life can develop in more complex organisms. Do understand, this process is always happening. It is not started after the environment becomes more habitable, the result can live on because the environment becomes more habitable. It is evolution always going on. Evolution does not stop. Evolution starts with self assembly. Now who made the rules in the universe that atoms behave that way ? That is the real question. And if someone would say God did, i can live with that. For i cannot prove or disprove it.
But it sure means that someone with a religious background can also firmly believe in science.
 
John Connor said:
After a few smokes and some coffee I have come to the conclusion that it isn't worth my time to attack my attackers with the scorn they dish out. I have realized that hell is the absence of God, as evident by most posts in my thread. It's a shame, it really is.

Now I'm not going to go on and say I'm the most perfect SOB that ever walked the face of earth. We all have faults. I just wonder if all the nay sayers have even read the Bible? At least John, or Matthew, or all the Gospels as they are called. Now it has some shit in there, believe me, but there is some good shit too. In my personal quest to find answers I don't reject science or the bible. I have always loved science and science was in fact my best subject. I even took advanced physics in high school. I have learned since I have been on this rock for 35 + years now that there is more to this universe then we can possibly know. For me personally I don't reject the possibility of a creator. From all that I have seen, read and experienced that would be foolish and unwise.

Jesus once said this:

John 15:18

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
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Ugh, persecution complex much?
 
John Connor said:
After a few smokes and some coffee I have come to the conclusion that it isn't worth my time to attack my attackers with the scorn they dish out. I have realized that hell is the absence of God, as evident by most posts in my thread. It's a shame, it really is.

Now I'm not going to go on and say I'm the most perfect SOB that ever walked the face of earth. We all have faults. I just wonder if all the nay sayers have even read the Bible? At least John, or Matthew, or all the Gospels as they are called. Now it has some shit in there, believe me, but there is some good shit too. In my personal quest to find answers I don't reject science or the bible. I have always loved science and science was in fact my best subject. I even took advanced physics in high school. I have learned since I have been on this rock for 35 + years now that there is more to this universe then we can possibly know. For me personally I don't reject the possibility of a creator. From all that I have seen, read and experienced that would be foolish and unwise.

Jesus once said this:

John 15:18

"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."
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And just think had you been born in Iran youd be a Muslim instead. Funny how your beliefs can fall apart just based on where you could have been born.
 
soulcougher73 said:
And just think had you been born in Iran youd be a Muslim instead. Funny how your beliefs can fall apart just based on where you could have been born.
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My mom often told me how lucky I was to be born in the U.S. So... with religion I guess I'm just lucky. 😛

But if you want to go that route let me just state the core fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. In Islam violence is largely sanctioned. Where is in Christianity to do violence goes against the very core beliefs.

So to reiterate. Yeah, I'm lucky to be in a largely judeo-christian country. We have been fighting Muslims since Thomas Jefferson. to the shores of Tripoli... ♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪
 
Ruptga said:
Roll some dice, why did you get that result? Observe some gluons or something, why were they in those quantum states? (Strictly speaking, the dice one isn't that great of an example because it is possible to know every single force that acts on them, but I think you get the idea.) We may never know precisely because there may be nothing to know. If the pre-big-bang singularity jumped into existence through quantum vacuum fluctuations, literally creating the universe from nothing, then there can be no more "why" to it than just that explanation.

It's a bit of a pedantic distinction, but I prefer "how" over "why", why carries too much semantic baggage about intention and meaning.
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There are reasons you get certain results when you roll dice: force applied to the throw, friction of the surface, position of the dice when starting, weight distribution and density of the cubes...there's countless systems involved that provide the result, giving the illusion of a random outcome. In reality, if you could replicate and control the conditions of every system involved, you could consistently roll any number you wish.

The systems that controlled the production of the universe we live in with the current set of physics we have most likely involves systems that are quintillions of time more complex than what determines the results of a dice throw. This, coupled with the fact that we can't observe any of these systems as they exist outside of our perception, means we may never know how things got started. There are 3 main possibilities though:

1. It's a locked system- all iterations of a universe will appear the way ours does because of a higher set of rules.
2. We're incredibly lucky- all iterations of a universe have different sets of balances, and it just so happens that the physics that took hold worked itself out in a such a way that allowed matter to form.
3. The universe was planned- some higher intelligence or system intended the universe to be the way it is for some unfathomable purpose. Maybe we're all a simulation? Maybe we're part of a computer program? Maybe we're an immense being's Sea Monkey's, with out universe floating around in a tank?

Unless some detection technology is created that doesn't depend on radiation or gravity, we'll have no way of looking back far enough in the universe's past to see how things started. We may be forever left to wonder "Why are we here?"
 
John Connor said:
My mom often told me how lucky I was to be born in the U.S. So... with religion I guess I'm just lucky. 😛

But if you want to go that route let me just state the core fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. In Islam violence is largely sanctioned. Where is in Christianity to do violence goes against the very core beliefs.

So to reiterate. Yeah, I'm lucky to be in a largely judeo-christian country. We have been fighting Muslims since Thomas Jefferson. to the shores of Tripoli... ♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪
Click to expand...

LOL
 
John Connor said:
My mom often told me how lucky I was to be born in the U.S. So... with religion I guess I'm just lucky. 😛

But if you want to go that route let me just state the core fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity. In Islam violence is largely sanctioned. Where is in Christianity to do violence goes against the very core beliefs.

So to reiterate. Yeah, I'm lucky to be in a largely judeo-christian country. We have been fighting Muslims since Thomas Jefferson. to the shores of Tripoli... ♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪
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This is VERY untrue and the reason there is so much animosity against Islamic beliefs. You are speaking of Radicalized Islam, which is a tiny fraction of all Islamic people. To think they're all like that is the equivalent of people thinking all Christians walk around thumping bibles preaching Jesus on street corners and condemning you to hell if you don't convert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence
Nissim Rejwan asserts that, "violence and cruelty are not in the spirit of the Quran, nor are they found in the life of the Prophet, nor in the lives of saintly Muslims."[12]

According to Feisal Abdul Rauf, "the Quran expressly and unambiguously prohibits the use of coercion in faith because coercion would violate a fundamental human right—the right to a free conscience. A different belief system is not deemed a legitimate cause for violence or war under Islamic law. The Quran is categorical on this: "There shall be no compulsion in religion" (2:256); "Say to the disbelievers [that is, atheists, or polytheists, namely those who reject God] "To you, your beliefs, to me, mine" (109:1-6)"[13]

Charles Mathewes characterizes the peace verses as saying that, "if others want peace, you can accept them as peaceful even if they are not Muslim." As an example, Mathews cites the second sura which commands believers not to transgress limits in warfare: "fight in God's cause against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits [in aggression]; God does not love transgressors" (2:190).[4]
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Fritzo said:
There are reasons you get certain results when you roll dice: force applied to the throw, friction of the surface, position of the dice when starting, weight distribution and density of the cubes...there's countless systems involved that provide the result, giving the illusion of a random outcome. In reality, if you could replicate and control the conditions of every system involved, you could consistently roll any number you wish.

The systems that controlled the production of the universe we live in with the current set of physics we have most likely involves systems that are quintillions of time more complex than what determines the results of a dice throw. This, coupled with the fact that we can't observe any of these systems as they exist outside of our perception, means we may never know how things got started. There are 3 main possibilities though:

1. It's a locked system- all iterations of a universe will appear the way ours does because of a higher set of rules.
2. We're incredibly lucky- all iterations of a universe have different sets of balances, and it just so happens that the physics that took hold worked itself out in a such a way that allowed matter to form.
3. The universe was planned- some higher intelligence or system intended the universe to be the way it is for some unfathomable purpose. Maybe we're all a simulation? Maybe we're part of a computer program? Maybe we're an immense being's Sea Monkey's, with out universe floating around in a tank?

Unless some detection technology is created that doesn't depend on radiation or gravity, we'll have no way of looking back far enough in the universe's past to see how things started. We may be forever left to wonder "Why are we here?"
Click to expand...

I hope we will have new detection methods when we can make better use of coupled particles by quantum entanglement. It allows for a whole new way of measuring. A bit like the atom smashers of today, but the atom smashing can be done near the surface of the sun with out needing to accelerate the atoms ourselfs. That would allow a lot of experiments to be done and simulations to be confirmed. It is not the holy grail of the universe, but it is a good path towards it.

I do wonder how the entanglement can be maintained over longer periods of time and larger distances. Imagine sending in a probe towards the sun or even better a black hole. What happens to one particle, should also happen to the other particles. If we could create in the future a whole system of (stable over time )entangled particles, i am positive we will find a lot new interesting things.
 
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Now, I'm not going to say if anyone here should believe one way or the other, but isn't that exactly how chance works? If the universe only had a 1/5000000000000000 chance and it formed after multiple "big bangs" wouldn't that be exactly how statistics are supposed to work?
 
Bubbleawsome said:
Now, I'm not going to say if anyone here should believe one way or the other, but isn't that exactly how chance works? If the universe only had a 1/5000000000000000 chance and it formed after multiple "big bangs" wouldn't that be exactly how statistics are supposed to work?
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I always wonder about the following : How do you know if that is the case if you are part of the result. If the result is negative, you do not exist and there is nothing to measure. If the result is positive and you exist, how do you know there where negative results before the positive results ?
 
William Gaatjes said:
I always wonder about the following : How do you know if that is the case if you are part of the result. If the result is negative, you do not exist and there is nothing to measure. If the result is positive and you exist, how do you know there where negative results before the positive results ?
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What if positive and negative were invented by a creator? 😀
 
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I'm not going to flame you John.
The definition of science:
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
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It does not have anything about gods in there. Nowhere does it say there is no god or gods.

Edit: you believe in a god or gods.
Definition of belief:
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"
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It does not require proof to have a belief.
Saying that trees are too perfect or everything fits too well, or this bird pollinates this flower, these are not provable statements. You are projecting your already formed beliefs onto the landscape around you.
 
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Who cares if the odds are enormous? We're the 1/whatevernumber. We're clearly here and we know it. We would not be aware if there have been thousands of billions of "failed" universes.

We exist, therefor this universe won against all odds. The fact that religious people feel the need to insert God wherever they can is not a very strong argument.

And like someone else wrote, if this universe was so fine tuned, why does so much of it not support life? Religious people and their delusion of grandeur...
 
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John Connor said:
The vid is 5 minutes and you chimed in 2. Ya, the fook... 🙄
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it was black screen stumbling through voice over with a total of 2 views.

it was creepy. But your premise was backwards within the first minute...so what's the point?

You claim that "the others" argue science proves there is no god. Science doesn't do that...science is a tool for understanding. science doesn't really say anything about god, because it can't. God can't be questioned, because god is the dead end. When God says "I am the beginning, I am the something before nothing," then there are no more questions to be asked--literally, the dead end.

Science only works when it creates more questions after questions. It's quite simple, really. And it does this by seeking to find fallibility in all current "truths." The acceptance of a god disallows this, so science really doesn't work there. Sure, sciences has long disproved and squashed pretty much everything that has been claimed in god's so-called book, but it really has no tools to boldly claim there is not nor ever was some ethereal being that pooped the universe into existence. We know that such a concept is statistically improbable--certainly in the understanding that this being is at all interested in the specific plight of a single neutron-sized race of beings within the vast near-infinity of the universe. Ponder that--as improbable the existence of a universe-creator, it is doubly, if not more, improbable that that creator would specifically be interested in us...ergo, it is far more probable that the concept is a specific creation of human fear for the unknown.

You create in your head arguments that you think others are making, then spring off your board from there. This is why it is not worth listening to your creepy dark room conversations.
 
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John Connor said:
What if positive and negative were invented by a creator? 😀
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How did this creator get created? How did an all-knowing being get created out of nothing?

Maybe the Universe is god. I don't know about you but if I knew the answer to everything I'd be bored out of my mind.

There might be a god or might not be a god. But which god is it anyway? Why is your god greater than another person's god? Is it god-willing that things happen? When a plane crashes and only 1 person out of 300 survives why is that a miracle for that one person?

God is a convenient excuse to deny evidence and to hate and to make war. Millions have died in the name of God especially Christianity and Islam.

I'm not an atheist. Perhaps there is a god. Then again there might have been a god who realized the flaws in humans and realized what a lost cause we are. Agent Smith summed up humans pretty well as a virus in The Matrix 🙂

I'm a big believer in randomness and that nothing happens for a reason.
 
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