The Bern endoses Hillary

[blankslate]

Funny I see it a similar way but different. The way its written doesn't allow modification so its either support or not. She has sided with not.
I agree language in the platform would be welcomed.

I still say its approved by the lame duck congress shortly after the elections and Obama will sign it the same day.

I don't quite agree with your assessment... after all if she has really sided with "not" wouldn't at least some of the delegates she appointed have voted for language in the democratic platform against the TPP?


On the other hand, I do think you're right in how the TPP might be passed... it'll be Obama's version of Clinton's last minute passing of Graham-Leech-Bliley

Then we'll be wondering how a generally very good President on some issues could pass something like that when we see the full consequences of it....

Just like Graham-Leech-Bliley's nullification of Glass-Steagall contributed to 2008.

Hopefully I am very wrong about the above. We'll see I guess.


____________

 

[fskimospy]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.... but yeah.... congratulations for that.

Of course not, my reason for replying to you has nothing to do with how you vote. Maybe that's why you reply to people, but not me!

When you say "I oppose someone because of X" and you are unable to supply an answer based in fact to "what about X don't you like?" That's a sign you're reasoning emotionally instead of rationally. If that's good enough for you then have at it, but don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

 

[agent00f]

It's worth reiterating my first point above concerning why trade talks are held under wraps to prevent them from becoming politics for social classes they don't concern.

 

[BurnItDwn]

You have Clinton, who appears to be disengenuous and cold, always speaking as if from a script or a predetermined carefully selected choice of words.

You have Trump, who appears to speak "off the cuff" and who is clearly a pathological liar & an egocentric megalomaniac and who wants to become like Mussolini.

On the plus side, both of them appear to be much much less damaging than GW Bush.
I'd take a thousand trumps over even one "dubya."

 

[BurnItDwn]

social classes they don't concern.

I believe you actually mean
"people who SHOULD be concerned due to unfair trade undermining American workers."

 

[agent00f]

I believe you actually mean
"people who SHOULD be concerned due to unfair trade undermining American workers."

The idea that the gubmint is holding the common man down in these sort of bidness talks is completely bizarre. The reason they have no seat at the table is because they have no business/ownership interests to discuss. In a meeting on normalizing accounting standards, what the hell are they going to talk about?

This only further illustrates that we live in a country of temporarily embarrassed millionaires who believe they're equals of the classes above.

 

[LegendKiller]

It's worth reiterating my first point above concerning why trade talks are held under wraps to prevent them from becoming politics for social classes they don't concern.

Noble notion, if only the classes which deem themselves the overlords were to look after the ruled in a matter befitting their power, for the sole benefit of the ruled. However, the failure to do that over the last 30 years has resulted in ratings and popularity levels that match the level of concern the overlords have for their subjects.

The Clinton influence peddling snd outright purchase of influence is a perfect example of this.

 

[LegendKiller]

The idea that the gubmint is holding the common man down in these sort of bidness talks is completely bizarre. The reason they have no seat at the table is because they have no business/ownership interests to discuss. In a meeting on normalizing accounting standards, what the hell are they going to talk about?

This only further illustrates that we live in a country of temporarily embarrassed millionaires who believe they're equals of the classes above.

There is a huge difference. Accounting is about moving numbers on paper. Trade agreements are about moving jobs overseas.

 

[agent00f]

Noble notion, if only the classes which deem themselves the overlords were to look after the ruled in a matter befitting their power, for the sole benefit of the ruled. However, the failure to do that over the last 30 years has resulted in ratings and popularity levels that match the level of concern the overlords have for their subjects.

The Clinton influence peddling snd outright purchase of influence is a perfect example of this.

This has nothing to do with altruism, but rather inviting relevant participants to meetings. I imagine your workplace doesn't invite random people to sit in on business discussions, especially if they're prone to turning it into a media shitfest.

There is a huge difference. Accounting is about moving numbers on paper. Trade agreements are about moving jobs overseas.

Seems you didn't grasp what's been said above. The regulatory discussions are about synchronizing arbitrary differences that form when two countries develop separately. It's simply artificial inefficiency in a capitalist free market. For someone who supposedly works in finance, you sure have a odd thing against a more efficient market.

 

[Jhhnn]

Noble notion, if only the classes which deem themselves the overlords were to look after the ruled in a matter befitting their power, for the sole benefit of the ruled. However, the failure to do that over the last 30 years has resulted in ratings and popularity levels that match the level of concern the overlords have for their subjects.

The Clinton influence peddling snd outright purchase of influence is a perfect example of this.

But Trump, your savior, he's different! He really, really cares! He'll create millions of jobs in the immigration Gestapo!

 

[LegendKiller]

This has nothing to do with altruism, but rather inviting relevant participants to meetings. I imagine your workplace doesn't invite random people to sit in on business discussions, especially if they're prone to turning it into a media shitfest.



Seems you didn't grasp what's been said above. The regulatory discussions are about synchronizing arbitrary differences that form when two countries develop separately. It's simply artificial inefficiency in a capitalist free market. For someone who supposedly works in finance, you sure have a odd thing against a more efficient market.

A free market can only exist if various symmetries exist. Tpp solves none of those asymmetries.

I am for free trade, but only if those issues are resolved.

 

[ivwshane]

A free market can only exist if various symmetries exist. Tpp solves none of those asymmetries.

I am for free trade, but only if those issues are resolved.

What symmetries would those be?

 

[blankslate]

I believe you actually mean
"people who SHOULD be concerned due to unfair trade undermining American workers."

Pretty much this.

The idea that the gubmint is holding the common man down in these sort of bidness talks is completely bizarre. The reason they have no seat at the table is because they have no business/ownership interests to discuss

It's not that they're purposefully holding down the common man it's that the negotiators and the people who report on the news about the TPP (and more often don't report on it as well as the effects of other trade deals) just exist in social circles where they know very few if anyone who was impacted by the trade deals of the past 20 or so years in a negative manner. Whereas most of the people in the middle class wage / salary levels are more likely to know of someone affected negatively by the trade deals.

Everything looks great to them because the economic gains in the past 8 years.... why wouldn't it as most of those gains went to their economic strata.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-sanders-says-99-percent-new-income-going-to/

http://www.businessinsider.com/95-o...the-top-1-heres-what-that-really-means-2013-9

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/15/news/economy/income-inequality-obama/




________________

 

[agent00f]

A free market can only exist if various symmetries exist. Tpp solves none of those asymmetries.

I am for free trade, but only if those issues are resolved.

A capitalist free market assumes no such thing. What you're probably thinking of is a "fair" market, which isn't the same thing. Like if you limit work hours to 8 a day, the next guy should, too. I believe the capitalists just consider that lazy unionist talk.

 

[LegendKiller]

A capitalist free market assumes no such thing. What you're probably thinking of is a "fair" market, which isn't the same thing. Like if you limit work hours to 8 a day, the next guy should, too. I believe the capitalists just consider that lazy unionist talk.

So then how do you control for currency manipulation? Or non-reciprocated protectionism? IP theft?

None of those things are really resolved with TPP. So tell me, how do you resolve them?

Do they not effect everybody in this country?

 

[agent00f]

Pretty much this.



It's not that they're purposefully holding down the common man it's that the negotiators and the people who report on the news about the TPP (and more often don't report on it as well as the effects of other trade deals) just exist in social circles where they know very few if anyone who was impacted by the trade deals of the past 20 or so years in a negative manner. Whereas most of the people in the middle class wage / salary levels are more likely to know of someone affected negatively by the trade deals.

Everything looks great to them because the economic gains in the past 8 years.... why wouldn't it as most of those gains went to their economic strata.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-sanders-says-99-percent-new-income-going-to/

http://www.businessinsider.com/95-o...the-top-1-heres-what-that-really-means-2013-9

http://money.cnn.com/2013/09/15/news/economy/income-inequality-obama/

________________

I think much of this confusion comes from the fact that the post-war labor shortage in countries with their particular stage of industrial development is anomalous. People however have come to expect unusually generous proletariat wages & other guarantees, when capitalism only guarantees the relative efficiency of markets. The little people you emphasize with are simply inefficiencies to that end. This isn't really some sort of vindictiveness on part of elites or whatever, it's just how the system is supposed to function.

So then how do you control for currency manipulation? Or non-reciprocated protectionism? IP theft?

None of those things are really resolved with TPP. So tell me, how do you resolve them?

Do they not effect everybody in this country?

This is very odd since nobody ever claimed the TPP is supposed to solve whatever other problems in the world; as mentioned repeatedly these types of negotiations largely sync regulatory inconsistencies.

 

[LegendKiller]

I think much of this confusion comes from the fact that the post-war labor shortage in countries with their particular stage of industrial development is anomalous. People however have come to expect unusually generous proletariat wages & other guarantees, when capitalism only guarantees the relative efficiency of markets. The little people you emphasize with are simply inefficiencies to that end. This isn't really some sort of vindictiveness on part of elites or whatever, it's just how the system is supposed to function.




This is very odd since nobody ever claimed the TPP is supposed to solve whatever other problems in the world; as mentioned repeatedly these types of negotiations largely sync regulatory inconsistencies.

So you liberalize our trade markets without protecting us from the greatest exposures for gaming the system?

 

[Moonbeam]

So you liberalize our trade markets without protecting us from the greatest exposures for gaming the system?

What if we used our government to invest in infrastructure that produced jobs and created economic efficiencies that gave people meaningful lives and a high standard of living so obvious to the world its people would demand the same from their own governments? Isn't the US built on seven or so basic economies that would experience far greater efficiencies and synergies if connected by high speed rail, for example. Isn't the greatest proportion of our economic engine confined to a number of major cities that are now inefficiently linked?

 

[agent00f]

So you liberalize our trade markets without protecting us from the greatest exposures for gaming the system?

It's not really the purpose of the TPP to solve all the world's problems.

But generally speaking in any case I believe free market types prefer the invisible hand over gubmint fiat to solve anything.

And really, it's not as if global hegemony puts the US at any sort of the disadvantage internationally. In this case you seem particularly concerned about some american peons, which are economically expendable to their own upper class, and largely placated by introducing various foreign bogeymen.

For example, a stable rmb-usd exchange is beneficial to people that matter on both ends, not unlike stable equities or interest rates for those you supposedly work for.

 

[Jhhnn]

It's not really the purpose of the TPP to solve all the world's problems.

But generally speaking in any case I believe free market types prefer the invisible hand over gubmint fiat to solve anything.

And really, it's not as if global hegemony puts the US at any sort of the disadvantage internationally. In this case you seem particularly concerned about some american peons, which are economically expendable to their own upper class, and largely placated by introducing various foreign bogeymen.

For example, a stable rmb-usd exchange is beneficial to people that matter on both ends, not unlike stable equities or interest rates for those you supposedly work for.

It's interesting to note how we got here- over the dead bodies of labor unions, financial regulations & inequality limiting tax structures. It's also because multinational capitalism seeks to shed itself of loyalty or obligation to any nation state and the people of it. We have an insurgent plutocracy.

We also have a population well propagandized into an anti government job creator headset which only furthers those goals. Too many would prefer a Strongman to strong institutions. It's what they sought in Reagan, GWB and now even more so with Trump. It's what shallow thinking can understand.

 

[LegendKiller]

It's not really the purpose of the TPP to solve all the world's problems.

But generally speaking in any case I believe free market types prefer the invisible hand over gubmint fiat to solve anything.

And really, it's not as if global hegemony puts the US at any sort of the disadvantage internationally. In this case you seem particularly concerned about some american peons, which are economically expendable to their own upper class, and largely placated by introducing various foreign bogeymen.

For example, a stable rmb-usd exchange is beneficial to people that matter on both ends, not unlike stable equities or interest rates for those you supposedly work for.

So it liberalizes our markets but doesn't really solve for the problems our markets face in competing in foreign markets, which is why it is anticipated to shave off some gdp and be net negative according to a few studies I have read from sell side shops and academia.

This is the problem with libertopians and free trade advocates. The rest of the world doesn't give a shit about the notion of free trade, only we do, and they take advantage of it. Pretty much every other country looks out for themselves and takes advantage of that by buying our politicians to cuck our country.

Add to that liberal notions that the "free hand" needs to be shackled by idiocy like the cfpb, and you get an unfettered rape of our economy. Sure, people like you say that it's because we deserve it, share the wealth globally, but that's a naive position, one which the Chinese love to manipulate.

Yes, stability in a currency is desired, but not at the cost of free float to reach a natural equalibrium with trade imbalances. China bootstrapped their economy up via currency manipulation at the cost of millions of us jobs. That anybody would not consider that as priority #1 when dealing in trade agreements is utter stupidity and consideration towards the little people for that is utterly required. Your contempt for the little people lays bare your true allegiances.

 

[fskimospy]

So it liberalizes our markets but doesn't really solve for the problems our markets face in competing in foreign markets, which is why it is anticipated to shave off some gdp and be net negative according to a few studies I have read from sell side shops and academia.

This is the problem with libertopians and free trade advocates. The rest of the world doesn't give a shit about the notion of free trade, only we do, and they take advantage of it. Pretty much every other country looks out for themselves and takes advantage of that by buying our politicians to cuck our country.

This is so bafflingly ignorant I don't even know what to say. The rest of the world is subject to the same WTO provisions that we are and we regularly enforce them. They give a shit about free trade to the same extent that we do.

It's important to remember that Trump is nearly entirely incompetent when it comes to even basic economics, much less the economics of trade. The guy has no idea what he's talking about. I cringe at the thought of how much damage someone this stupid could do if he were ever able to implement his ideas.

I mean surely even you can admit that Trump is economically incompetent, no?

 

[LegendKiller]

This is so bafflingly ignorant I don't even know what to say. The rest of the world is subject to the same WTO provisions that we are and we regularly enforce them. They give a shit about free trade to the same extent that we do.

It's important to remember that Trump is nearly entirely incompetent when it comes to even basic economics, much less the economics of trade. The guy has no idea what he's talking about. I cringe at the thought of how much damage someone this stupid could do if he were ever able to implement his ideas.

I mean surely even you can admit that Trump is economically incompetent, no?

Bitch, please. If they were so subject to the same wto provisions they wouldn't have pegged their currency artificially low for over a decade without repercussions. Nor would they be dumping steel onto the market due to SOE subsidies and constant recapitalization of their banks and entities by securitization of shit assets partially guaranteed by the various governments. It's why o just slapped tariffs on that shit but won't go as far as doing reciprocal trade tariffs to compensate for SOE actions or currency manipulation. Throw the steel industry a bone so they can keep fucking the rest of the country.

Really, just shut the fuck up with your pedantic insults of fake superiority. You fucking know their markets are anything but free and yet you still tow this idiotic line. Why the fuck do you do it and be so misleadingly condescending? Because you're their bitch.

I don't know what's worse. The possibility that Trump is economically inept or that your so economically intellectually dishonest that you will just fuck your own country over in these idiotic pursuits of "free markets" when almost no other country does the same.

Do you call germany, a country which has massive protectionist practices, an artificially low currency, and a stranglehold on such, a free economy?

What about russia's use of central bank swap lines to refinance dollar debt to avoid negative currency fluctuations?

Yet you want to ignore that shit as trivial.

I know what's worse than trumps potential ineptitude, your complete will full ignorance and/or proselytization of these notions to those who don't have a macro view to call you out on it.

 

[fskimospy]

Bitch, please. If they were so subject to the same wto provisions they wouldn't have pegged their currency artificially low for over a decade without repercussions. Nor would they be dumping steel onto the market due to SOE subsidies and constant recapitalization of their banks and entities by securitization of shit assets partially guaranteed by the various governments. It's why o just slapped tariffs on that shit but won't go as far as doing reciprocal trade tariffs to compensate for SOE actions or currency manipulation. Throw the steel industry a bone so they can keep fucking the rest of the country.

Really, just shut the fuck up with your pedantic insults of fake superiority. You fucking know their markets are anything but free and yet you still tow this idiotic line. Why the fuck do you do it and be so misleadingly condescending? Because you're their bitch.

I don't know what's worse. The possibility that Trump is economically inept or that your so economically intellectually dishonest that you will just fuck your own country over in these idiotic pursuits of "free markets" when almost no other country does the same.

Do you call germany, a country which has massive protectionist practices, an artificially low currency, and a stranglehold on such, a free economy?

What about russia's use of central bank swap lines to refinance dollar debt to avoid negative currency fluctuations?

Yet you want to ignore that shit as trivial.

I know what's worse than trumps potential ineptitude, your complete will full ignorance and/or proselytization of these notions to those who don't have a macro view to call you out on it.

Are you trying to say you have a 'macro view'? I've never seen anything out of you that would indicate you have even a lay man's understanding of international trade. At least you finally learned that China's currency situation is dramatically different now after I told you. Sadly Trump still hasn't gotten the memo or is so incompetent he can't understand the memo.

All you're doing is ranting in general terms about cherry picked policies. That might work against people who don't know anything about trade but it won't work on me. Trump's trade policies insofar as they exist beyond incoherent rambling are extremely likely to spark a trade war and badly damage the US economy. Anyone without their head in his ass should be willing to acknowledge they would be a catastrophe.

It's amusing to see you so vehemently defend someone who is so utterly incompetent. Is it out of pity at this point?

 

[werepossum]

This is so bafflingly ignorant I don't even know what to say. The rest of the world is subject to the same WTO provisions that we are and we regularly enforce them. They give a shit about free trade to the same extent that we do.

It's important to remember that Trump is nearly entirely incompetent when it comes to even basic economics, much less the economics of trade. The guy has no idea what he's talking about. I cringe at the thought of how much damage someone this stupid could do if he were ever able to implement his ideas.

I mean surely even you can admit that Trump is economically incompetent, no?

lol! What a howler - the self-made billionaire businessman is "nearly entirely incompetent when it comes to even basic economics, much less the economics of trade."

Even "it depends of what the meaning of 'is' is" can't compete with this one.