The Baucus Health Bill: A Primer on What's in It

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Source

So I guess you have to trust TIME on this breakdown...

How much does the bill cost, and will it add to the deficit?
In a press release accompanying the release of the bill, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus says the legislation would cost $856 billion over 10 years and would not increase the deficit. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office, which put the bill's total cost at a lower $774 billion, says the bill would actually reduce the deficit by $49 billion between 2010 and 2019. (Watch an abridged version of President Obama's health-care speech before Congress.)

Is there a public option?
No. As an alternative to the controversial government-run health option, the bill, beginning in 2012, would provide $6 billion in federal funding to states or groups of states to set up nonprofit, consumer-owned and -operated health-insurance cooperatives. These cooperatives would be unaffiliated with any government entity and would be self-insured ? meaning cooperatives would collect premiums from members and pay out claims from those funds. Cooperative insurance plans would be available to consumers through the state exchanges that are to be set up as part of the reform plan.

How would the exchanges work?
By 2010, each state would be required to establish an exchange, or marketplace, where insurance will be sold. Initially, only individuals and businesses with 50 or fewer employees would be eligible to shop in the exchanges, but by 2017, states would have to develop plans to phase in larger employers. By 2022, all businesses would be eligible to purchase coverage through the exchanges. (See pictures of the Cleveland Clinic's famous approach to health-care.)

Insurance plans for sale in the exchanges would be vetted by the Federal Government to meet minimum standards for coverage. There would be a range of plans offered in the exchanges: bronze, silver, gold and platinum. Bronze plans would be the cheapest, offering the least amount of coverage; platinum plans, the most expensive, offering the most coverage.

"All plans must provide preventive and primary care, emergency services, hospitalization, physician services, outpatient services, day surgery and related anesthesia, diagnostic imaging and screenings (including X-rays), maternity and newborn care, pediatric services (including dental and vision), medical/surgical care, prescription drugs, radiation and chemotherapy, and mental health and substance abuse services ... In addition, plans could charge no cost-sharing (e.g., deductibles, copayments) ... for preventive care services ... Plans could also not include lifetime limits on coverage or annual limits on any benefits."

The exchange would also offer a high-deductible plan for adults under 25. This plan would be cheaper than the bronze plan and is referred to as a "young invincible" policy. (See five truths about health-care in the U.S.)

What new restrictions would be placed on the private health-insurance plans?
Insurers would no longer be able to exclude applicants based on pre-existing conditions or charge higher premiums for those with pre-existing conditions. Insurers would have to offer coverage to anyone who applies for it and would be allowed to adjust premium rates only based on tobacco use, age, family size and geographic location.

Tobacco users could be charged 1½ times what non?tobacco users are charged. The oldest Americans buying private insurance could be charged five times what youngest Americans are charged. And insurers would be banned from capping the amount they pay out on a policy annually.

Would there be an individual mandate?
Yes. Beginning in 2013, individuals would be required to have health insurance. Individuals and families who do not have insurance for more than three months in a given year would be subject to an annual excise tax of $750 and $1,500, respectively, if their income is below 300% of the federal poverty line (or $66,150 for a family of four). Tax penalties for individuals and families with incomes above that would be $950 and $3,800. The excise tax would be waived for Native Americans and individuals and families whose health-insurance costs would be more than 10% of their annual income.

Would there be an employer mandate?
No. But employers would have to pay an annual tax penalty if any of their workers receive subsidies to purchase insurance through the exchanges. The tax penalty assessed to the employer would be either $400 per worker (regardless of how many workers receive subsidies) or the average cost of subsidies in a given year multiplied by the number of workers receiving them in the company ? whichever is lower. (Businesses with fewer than 50 employees would be exempt from this tax.)

"For example, Employer A, who does not offer health coverage, has 100 employees, 30 of whom receive a tax credit for enrolling in a state exchange offered plan. If the flat dollar amount set by the Secretary of HHS for that year is $3,000, Employer A should owe $90,000. Since the maximum amount an employer must pay per year is limited to $400 multiplied by the total number of employees (for Employer A, 100), however, Employer A must pay only $40,000 (the lesser of the $40,000 maximum and the $90,000 calculated fee)."

Plus, if employers have 200 or more employees and offer health-insurance coverage, they would automatically have to enroll workers, although workers could opt out of coverage if they prove they have insurance from another source.

What kind of subsidies would the government offer to low-income Americans and small businesses to help them buy insurance?
Starting in 2013, the Federal Government would offer a refundable tax credit to low- and middle-income individuals and families who purchase certain policies through the state exchanges. The credit would be available to individuals and families who earn up to 300% of the federal poverty level, which for a family of four would be about $66,000 in 2009. It would be provided on a sliding scale, with the level of credit "based on the percentage of income the cost of premiums [not including deductibles or copays] represents, rising from 3% of income for those at 100% of poverty to 13% of income for those at 300% of poverty." Individuals earning between 300% and 400% of the poverty level would be eligible for a credit after their share of the premium hits a maximum of 13% of income. The credits would be paid directly to insurers through the exchange, with policyholders paying the remaining amount.

Qualifying small businesses that offer their employees health insurance would be eligible for a tax credit to offset their contribution to the costs of the policies. An employer with up to 25 full-time employees whose average annual wages are no more than $40,000 would have access to some part of the credit, though only companies with no more than 10 employees who earn an average of less than $20,000 a year would be eligible for the full credit. In 2011 and 2012, the full credit would be up to 35% of a small business's contribution, and starting in 2013, employers that purchase their policies through the state exchanges could claim a tax credit for two years of up to 50% of their contribution.

Would the health-care industry have to pay for the cost of reform?
Beginning in 2010, insurance companies would have to pay an annual total of $6 billion; pharmaceutical companies, $2.3 billion; medical-device makers, $4 billion; clinical laboratories, $750 million. The amount each individual company pays would depend on their market share.

Pharmaceutical companies would also, per an agreement struck with the Obama Administration earlier this year, cut name-brand-drug costs 50% for Medicare Part D recipients stuck in the "doughnut hole," the gap in prescription-drug coverage that exists once seniors' drug costs for the year exceed a certain amount ($2,700 in 2009). This provision would go into effect in 2010 and is expected to cost drugmakers $80 billion over 10 years. (Part D beneficiaries who get low-income subsidies, are enrolled in a retiree drug plan or earn more than $85,000 would not be eligible for the discount.)

Would "gold-plated" Cadillac plans be taxed?
Yes, although technically insurers would be the ones taxed. Beginning in 2013, they would pay a 35% excise tax on any plans they sell that cost more than $8,000 for individuals and $21,000 for families. But even though insurers would be paying, they would almost certainly pass along this extra cost to consumers. Nearly all of these so-called Cadillac plans are sold through employer-based coverage, often to union workers and municipal employees.

To make employer-based coverage more transparent, the bill would also require that W-2 forms list the total cost of premiums paid by employers.

Is medical-malpractice reform addressed?
The Senate Finance Committee does not have jurisdiction over malpractice law, but the committee's bill includes a section expressing support for malpractice reform. The section specifically endorses reform approaches like those expressed by President Obama: funding for pilot programs to study ways to reform the malpractice system without capping malpractice awards. [EPIC FAIL HERE!]

How would the Medicaid program be affected?
Beginning in 2014, eligibility for Medicaid would be raised to individuals earning up to 133% of the federal poverty line ? $14,400 for an individual; $30,000 a year for a family of four. Childless adults, currently excluded from Medicaid, would be eligible.

Would federal funds be used to finance abortions?
Those eligible for federal subsidies to purchase insurance through exchanges would be able to choose from at least one plan that covers abortions beyond those in the case of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother (the exceptions that Medicaid and other federal programs currently allow) and one that doesn't. Those private plans that do offer the services would have to segregate funds internally to make sure that only individual premiums, and not federal subsidies, pay for actual abortion services. [YEAH RIGHT! SOUNDS REALLY EASY!]

In the health-insurance cooperatives, coverage for abortion services would not be explicitly prohibited. Consumers owning and operating the cooperatives would be able to decide if they want to cover abortion.

Would illegal immigrants be allowed to participate in any new health-insurance system established in the bill?
No. The bill would require individuals and families eligible for subsidies to prove their citizenship by providing their names, Social Security numbers and dates of birth. Those who cannot prove their citizenship would not be allowed to purchase insurance through the exchanges, with or without subsidies. [I LIKE!]


So, I have added some brief commentary.

What do you all think?

My biggest complaint is the "malpractice reform" part. Total failure there.

 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage.

Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties. I'm pretty sure the long run costs of obesity > tobacco use.

Not a bad bill all in all, we'll see if economies of scale and interstate competition will force the costs down. Somehow I doubt that will be the case, because health insurance rates aren't that different across state lines.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage. Not a bad bill all in all.


Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties.

Not bad, but it's a public option without setting up the bureacracy and all the bloat that can entail. Which may or may not be effective, but it's clearly effectively the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that it's going to start out at $6B (federally funded) and it's going to continue to go up. So it'll still be private insurance but it's effectively a federally mandated subsidy forcing insurance that's gov't-funded on Americans.

beginning in 2012, would provide $6 billion in federal funding to states or groups of states to set up nonprofit, consumer-owned and -operated health-insurance cooperatives. These cooperatives would be unaffiliated with any government entity and would be self-insured ? meaning cooperatives would collect premiums from members and pay out claims from those funds. Cooperative insurance plans would be available to consumers through the state exchanges that are to be set up as part of the reform plan.

How would the exchanges work?
By 2010, each state would be required to establish an exchange, or marketplace, where insurance will be sold. Initially, only individuals and businesses with 50 or fewer employees would be eligible to shop in the exchanges, but by 2017, states would have to develop plans to phase in larger employers. By 2022, all businesses would be eligible to purchase coverage through the exchanges. (See pictures of the Cleveland Clinic's famous approach to health-care.)

It's weaker than many liberals want but will inevitably lead to single payer as costs go down because private insurers will have incentives to drop healthcare for their employees because it's cheaper to pay the penalty than provide the insurance, which is effectively adding to federal coffers and increasing the need for more federal dollars for insurance cop-opts, which will no doubt be single payer or some UHC derivative.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: First
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage. Not a bad bill all in all.


Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties.

Not bad, but it's a public option without setting up the bureacracy and all the bloat that can entail. Which may or may not be effective, but it's clearly effectively the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that it's going to start out at $6B (federally funded) and it's going to continue to go up. So it'll still be private insurance but it's effectively a federally mandated subsidy forcing insurance that's gov't-funded on Americans.

beginning in 2012, would provide $6 billion in federal funding to states or groups of states to set up nonprofit, consumer-owned and -operated health-insurance cooperatives. These cooperatives would be unaffiliated with any government entity and would be self-insured ? meaning cooperatives would collect premiums from members and pay out claims from those funds. Cooperative insurance plans would be available to consumers through the state exchanges that are to be set up as part of the reform plan.

How would the exchanges work?
By 2010, each state would be required to establish an exchange, or marketplace, where insurance will be sold. Initially, only individuals and businesses with 50 or fewer employees would be eligible to shop in the exchanges, but by 2017, states would have to develop plans to phase in larger employers. By 2022, all businesses would be eligible to purchase coverage through the exchanges. (See pictures of the Cleveland Clinic's famous approach to health-care.)

It's weaker than many liberals want but will inevitably lead to single payer as costs go down.

How do you figure? It's not any more of a public option than what BC/BS is right now or any other 501(c) for that matter.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage. Not a bad bill all in all.


Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties.

Not bad, but it's a public option without setting up the bureacracy and all the bloat that can entail. Which may or may not be effective, but it's clearly effectively the same thing, as evidenced by the fact that it's going to start out at $6B (federally funded) and it's going to continue to go up. So it'll still be private insurance but it's effectively a federally mandated subsidy forcing insurance that's gov't-funded on Americans.

beginning in 2012, would provide $6 billion in federal funding to states or groups of states to set up nonprofit, consumer-owned and -operated health-insurance cooperatives. These cooperatives would be unaffiliated with any government entity and would be self-insured ? meaning cooperatives would collect premiums from members and pay out claims from those funds. Cooperative insurance plans would be available to consumers through the state exchanges that are to be set up as part of the reform plan.

How would the exchanges work?
By 2010, each state would be required to establish an exchange, or marketplace, where insurance will be sold. Initially, only individuals and businesses with 50 or fewer employees would be eligible to shop in the exchanges, but by 2017, states would have to develop plans to phase in larger employers. By 2022, all businesses would be eligible to purchase coverage through the exchanges. (See pictures of the Cleveland Clinic's famous approach to health-care.)

It's weaker than many liberals want but will inevitably lead to single payer as costs go down.

How do you figure? It's not any more of a public option than what BC/BS is right now or any other 501(c) for that matter.

I edited my post.

It's weaker than many liberals want but will inevitably lead to single payer as costs go down because private insurers will have incentives to drop healthcare for their employees because it's cheaper to pay the penalty than provide the insurance, which is effectively adding to federal coffers and increasing the need for more federal dollars for insurance cop-opts, which will no doubt be single payer or some UHC derivative.
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
It's weaker than many liberals want but will inevitably lead to single payer as costs go down because private insurers will have incentives to drop healthcare for their employees because it's cheaper to pay the penalty than provide the insurance, which is effectively adding to federal coffers and increasing the need for more federal dollars for insurance cop-opts, which will no doubt be single payer or some UHC derivative.
[/quote]

Not quite, you're making a leap of logic there.

It might be true that employers will stop providing health care and pay the fine/tax instead, which will drive more people to non-profit coops. That will have no impact on "federal coffers" however, since the premium for a person is set to cover the person's statistical cost (EV of payout = premium + admin). Non-profit doesn't mean operating in red.

It will make the nonprofits larger, but that's about it.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product

It's the best way to pay for this and increases accountability from the dopes that truly believe their actions (or inaction in this case) doesn't affect other people when they end up in the ER with no insurance, forcing responsible Americans to pay for it because they thought they were Superman. Obama made a good point about auto insurance, it's the same thing.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product

False premise. The hospital doesn't have a choice to reject you when you show up bleeding at the ER w/o means to pay, which means you do not have a choice to not be insured. You're not saving money by not getting insurance, statistically you're extracting money from other people, whose premiums pay for the statistical cost you being hospitalized.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
81
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage.

Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties. I'm pretty sure the long run costs of obesity > tobacco use.

Not a bad bill all in all, we'll see if economies of scale and interstate competition will force the costs down. Somehow I doubt that will be the case, because health insurance rates aren't that different across state lines.

I actually think I support a FAT TAX...tax the hell out of everything from fast food makers to potato chip makers to Coke, etc. Funds go DIRECTLY to a health care fund that GOVT cannot dip its hands into.
 

halik

Lifer
Oct 10, 2000
25,696
1
0
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage.

Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties. I'm pretty sure the long run costs of obesity > tobacco use.

Not a bad bill all in all, we'll see if economies of scale and interstate competition will force the costs down. Somehow I doubt that will be the case, because health insurance rates aren't that different across state lines.

I actually think I support a FAT TAX...tax the hell out of everything from fast food makers to potato chip makers to Coke, etc. Funds go DIRECTLY to a health care fund that GOVT cannot dip its hands into.

I thought you were ron paul "libertarian" and don't believe in things like negative externalities... ;)
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: halik

Not quite, you're making a leap of logic there.

It might be true that employers will stop providing health care and pay the fine/tax instead, which will drive more people to non-profit coops. That will have no impact on "federal coffers" however, since the premium for a person is set to cover the person's statistical cost (EV of payout = premium + admin). Non-profit doesn't mean operating in red.

It will make the nonprofits larger, but that's about it.



It will make the co-opts bigger, but for some reason I thought this was the bill that included a trigger for a gov't option if the co-opts didn't satisfactorily cover Americans at low costs. That was Senate Republican Olympia Snowe apparently, I got Baucus' plan confused with her suggestion.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Originally posted by: halik
Originally posted by: First
It's basically a public option without being called a public option. And it has lots of room to grow into a single payer federal insurance program. At least from what I've read so far. Gotta read the whole bill first, but I'm not sure it's worth it until they actually finish it.

No,
it's more like letting Blue Cross / Blue shield operate across state lines. I actually like that sort of set up, because I haven't seen any efficiencies gained by for-profit health insurance. It looks like bulk of their cost saving comes from rejecting claims and coverage.

Interesting they target smokers, but not fatties. I'm pretty sure the long run costs of obesity > tobacco use.

Not a bad bill all in all, we'll see if economies of scale and interstate competition will force the costs down. Somehow I doubt that will be the case, because health insurance rates aren't that different across state lines.

I actually think I support a FAT TAX...tax the hell out of everything from fast food makers to potato chip makers to Coke, etc. Funds go DIRECTLY to a health care fund that GOVT cannot dip its hands into.

I thought you were ron paul "libertarian" and don't believe in things like negative externalities... ;)

Well, Ron Paul doesn't believe in evolution either, so negative externalities and the danger of cartels and monopolies isn't exactly a stretch for him. ;)
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
I see cost shifting, not any cost savings.


The employer fine is far cheaper than insurance, so we will be paying for insurance with post tax dollars(tax hike).

Covering the donut hole will shift costs elsewhere.

Preexisting considitions will drive premiums for all.

And 3rd party will still be paying for medical care instead of the consumer, so there will still be no transparency in cost.

No tort reform.

This bill will be making healthcare more expensive, not less expensive.
 

BarrySotero

Banned
Apr 30, 2009
509
0
0
It's a (tax) trap!

"Health Reform: Liberal Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.V., complains of a "big, big tax" on the middle class in the Senate health bill. But massive new taxes are only one part of the pain.

In last year's campaign, the president repeatedly promised no new taxes of any kind for families making under $250,000 a year. Now we have the Democratic chairman of the Senate Finance Committee proposing to turn America's health care system into one big middle-class revenue collection machine.

To finance the Democrats' radical transformation of America's medical, Sen. Max Baucus of Montana proposes a new 35% excise tax on private health insurance plans that cost $21,000 per family or $8,000 per individual.

During a conference call with reporters on Tuesday organized by the liberal Campaign for America's Future, finance committee member Rockefeller warned that "the tax will be put on the company and the company will immediately pass it down" to its policyholders.

The new taxation goes deeper. As Bob Laszewski, the savvy president of the Health Policy and Strategy Associates consulting firm, wrote in his widely read blog this week: "What is really going on here is that proponents of these insurance company taxes would just turn the health insurance industry into a new division of the Internal Revenue Service."

Laszewski, who has run a health insurance company, is convinced the 35% premium tax would become another alternative minimum tax, eventually snaring holders of far-less-expensive health policies and turning private health insurance into an IRS money machine

Americans for Tax Reform catalogued the Baucus proposal's other tax increases:

? An employer mandate tax of $400 per employee that would be an incentive to drop coverage.

? A health savings account distribution penalty of 10% to 20%.

? Expensive IRS reporting requirements that look suspiciously like a prelude to the individual taxation of employer-provided health insurance.

? Big taxes slapped on various sectors of the medical industry: $6 billion a year on private health insurance firms, $4 billion from medical device manufacturers, $2.3 billion from the pharmaceutical industry and $750 million levied on clinical labs.

You can bet whatever remains of your bottom dollar that health care insurance customers will end up paying those added costs.

And for what? A federally mandated requirement to buy health insurance they can't afford, with big deductibles, plus extensive out-of-pocket costs.

As Laszewski explains, a family of four earning $66,000 "would be expected to spend $8,600 for a health insurance plan that would likely have a $2,000 deductible. If they didn't buy it, they would have to pay a fine of $3,800."

Being forced onto the road toward socialized medicine won't just extract a cost in health care consumer freedoms.

It will also, at a time of economic calamity, cost Americans a whole lot in hard-earned cash."



http://www.ibdeditorials.com/I...spx?id=337991724518153

Bingo
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
Since affordable insurance is available now to everyone, or at least that's one talking point against reform, who needs to have a $21,000 a year plan besides Wall Street millionaires?

i.e. a luxury tax seems fair for someone getting half as much in free insurance as many people earn to live on.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
I see cost shifting, not any cost savings.


The employer fine is far cheaper than insurance, so we will be paying for insurance with post tax dollars(tax hike).

Covering the donut hole will shift costs elsewhere.

Preexisting considitions will drive premiums for all.

And 3rd party will still be paying for medical care instead of the consumer, so there will still be no transparency in cost.

No tort reform.

This bill will be making healthcare more expensive, not less expensive.

pretty much garbage legislation, thanks for wasting the summer on nothing baucus
 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: First
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product

It's the best way to pay for this and increases accountability from the dopes that truly believe their actions (or inaction in this case) doesn't affect other people when they end up in the ER with no insurance, forcing responsible Americans to pay for it because they thought they were Superman. Obama made a good point about auto insurance, it's the same thing.

BS.

First, no one is required to have auto insurance. You just have to get it if you choose to drive. Some people choose not to drive because of this. The same cannot be said for health insurance.

Second, when auto insurance was mandated in this state costs for insurance went up since the insurance industry KNEW you have no real alternative.

Finally, after all these years it has had NO EFFECT on the number of insured drivers. 1 out of 5 drivers still refuse to purchase insurance, and just become criminals instead.

This does not address persons who have a moral objection to insurance *raises hand*, does nothing to combat the actual costs of healthcare, does nothing to regulate the insurance industry, etc. In short, it's total and utter crap. I would refuse to participate in this, or anything similar. In fact, I have refused to participate in ANY system which mandates private insurance, and I have notified all levels of government of this moral objection. If needs be, I will fight to the death over this point.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: First
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product

It's the best way to pay for this and increases accountability from the dopes that truly believe their actions (or inaction in this case) doesn't affect other people when they end up in the ER with no insurance, forcing responsible Americans to pay for it because they thought they were Superman. Obama made a good point about auto insurance, it's the same thing.

BS.

First, no one is required to have auto insurance. You just have to get it if you choose to drive. Some people choose not to drive because of this. The same cannot be said for health insurance.

Second, when auto insurance was mandated in this state costs for insurance went up since the insurance industry KNEW you have no real alternative.

Finally, after all these years it has had NO EFFECT on the number of insured drivers. 1 out of 5 drivers still refuse to purchase insurance, and just become criminals instead.

This does not address persons who have a moral objection to insurance *raises hand*, does nothing to combat the actual costs of healthcare, does nothing to regulate the insurance industry, etc. In short, it's total and utter crap. I would refuse to participate in this, or anything similar. In fact, I have refused to participate in ANY system which mandates private insurance, and I have notified all levels of government of this moral objection. If needs be, I will fight to the death over this point.

have fun being dead then i guess. :disgust:

 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
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Nice 35% tax on current health care plans that will be passed onto the consumer.

I especially like the part where this tax is implemented in 2013 AFTER to 2012 election

No new taxes on the middle class? Bull Shit.
 
May 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: First
Originally posted by: FoBoT
so the "fines" are tax penalties? the IRS will be the one collecting the fines? in other words, they'll take the "fine" out of your tax refund
i can't believe they want to make criminals out of people that don't want to buy an insurance product

It's the best way to pay for this and increases accountability from the dopes that truly believe their actions (or inaction in this case) doesn't affect other people when they end up in the ER with no insurance, forcing responsible Americans to pay for it because they thought they were Superman. Obama made a good point about auto insurance, it's the same thing.

BS.

First, no one is required to have auto insurance. You just have to get it if you choose to drive. Some people choose not to drive because of this. The same cannot be said for health insurance.

Second, when auto insurance was mandated in this state costs for insurance went up since the insurance industry KNEW you have no real alternative.

Finally, after all these years it has had NO EFFECT on the number of insured drivers. 1 out of 5 drivers still refuse to purchase insurance, and just become criminals instead.

This does not address persons who have a moral objection to insurance *raises hand*, does nothing to combat the actual costs of healthcare, does nothing to regulate the insurance industry, etc. In short, it's total and utter crap. I would refuse to participate in this, or anything similar. In fact, I have refused to participate in ANY system which mandates private insurance, and I have notified all levels of government of this moral objection. If needs be, I will fight to the death over this point.

have fun being dead then i guess. :disgust:

Better dead than a part of the system they're proposing.