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The ARM v.s. Intel Thing - Let's Discuss It

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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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Regarding Intel competing with ARM in the mobile phone space, isn't there also a problem that Intel does not sell their CPU cores as licensed IP blocks?

With ARM you can buy the right to use an ARM core on your SoC chip. Then when designing the SoC chip you basically just "drag" that ARM core IP block into your design and then add what ever iGPU, I/O and radio technologies you want on it. So you can get very customized single chip solutions.

With Intel, that is not possible as I understand it?
 
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Fx1

Golden Member
Aug 22, 2012
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I agree with this. R+D wise they're so far ahead of everyone, it is inevitable that intel will be one of the top players in coming years.

The AT article on ARM vs clover trail power consumption was an eye opener as well. Intel is very close on that (power consumption) front, and way way ahead on the performance front.

Eye opener? LOL

Did you not see the 40nm part being compared to a 32nm chip? One approaching its end of life in favour of 28nm Tegra 4? How about the fact Atom has barely been included in a single product its THAT good. What about the companion core which is turned off because its not supported by windows which normally gives Tegra its edge in power saving? Oh thats right we are comparing windows RT. A product that basically is a flop and stands little to no chance of getting anywhere just like WinPhone 8.

Samsung is testing 14nm Process nodes and im betting that they will want to catch intel up on that front eventually.

Intel claimed they were going to be a top GPU company and they failed. They also claimed they were going to be a top SSD company and they also failed at that too.

In Fact the only thing they have ever managed to beat is AMD. Now they have to face ARM which is a company with no physical production who have partners such as Samsung, Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, & many more. All have significant resources and cash on hand. ARM offer the chance to make bespoke SOC's What can Intel do? They made a special ULV chip for Apple once. Thats it.

Oh and Intel wont like working on the lower margins either and that will limit them always
 
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Haserath

Senior member
Sep 12, 2010
793
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Apparently Intel conroed the ssd market? Didn't you hear? Anand said so in his typical fanboy style. Oh wait. How long did that last? 2 months?

Then they went sand force after admitting defeat to OCZ of all companies.

Now Samsung kicks their ass.

Sound familiar?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6433/intel-ssd-dc-s3700-200gb-review

Not quite. Intel just came back with a very strong product, entirely of their making. This could be just like the next gen atom and with process advantage.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
2,023
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In Fact the only thing they have ever managed to beat is AMD. Now they have to face ARM which is a company with no physical production who have partners such as Samsung, Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, & many more. All have significant resources and cash on hand. ARM offer the chance to make bespoke SOC's What can Intel do? They made a special ULV chip for Apple once. Thats it.

to tell the truth, i think the only company that is a real treat to Intel is Samsung... the others are just to small for a fight

And i would bet on Samsung to win the fight, they have more in-house tecnology than anyone

even without it.... these guys are beating any competition they found, with many big companies on the list...and right now, they are beating Apple
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
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I would be just as slow to write off Samsung and Qualcomm as I would Intel. Samsung has the funds. Market Cap 199B. That is bigger than Intel. Twice the size actually. And Qualcomm IS the same size as Intel at 103B compared to Intels 100B.

I'm not saying that the money a company has directly correlates to how much R&D money goes to SoC work, but at the same time, the money available to Intel's competitors can't be ignored either.
ARM is, and will be, a formidable competitor in the mobile and SoC market. And this is a HUGE market constantly growing. Soon it will dwarf desktops if it hasn't already. I don't have those numbers so I can't make any good guesses there.

Anyway, Intel is a force to reckon with, but that doesn't mean Qualcomm or Samsung isn't.
If AMD, with it's pathetic R&D budget (pathetic in comparison to Intel) can put up somewhat of a fight against Intel (pre-conroe), well, nuff said.
Also look forward to seeing what Nvidia does as well.
 
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Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
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Eye opener? LOL

Did you not see the 40nm part being compared to a 32nm chip? One approaching its end of life in favour of 28nm Tegra 4? How about the fact Atom has barely been included in a single product its THAT good. What about the companion core which is turned off because its not supported by windows which normally gives Tegra its edge in power saving? Oh thats right we are comparing windows RT. A product that basically is a flop and stands little to no chance of getting anywhere just like WinPhone 8.

That is a pricing issue really. ARM processors are dirt cheap. Atom, not so much. Couple that with the fact that intel was VERY late into the mobile game and you can see why there aren't many Atom processors on the market.

Intel claimed they were going to be a top GPU company and they failed.

Intel is already a top GPU company. They have been for a LONG time. Their GPUs have long since outsold nVidia and ATI/AMD. The fact is, high performance GPUs has been a niche up until very recently (when we started using GPUs for more than just rendering 3d environments). And even then, Intel's Phi fills in that gap pretty nicely.

They also claimed they were going to be a top SSD company and they also failed at that too.

I don't know what you mean by failed. Certainly they aren't the market leader here (AFAIK). But I don't think that makes them a failure. Intel is pretty conservative with their products, if it doesn't turn a profit they generally won't chase it for long. My bet is that their SSDs are at least turning a profit.

In Fact the only thing they have ever managed to beat is AMD. Now they have to face ARM which is a company with no physical production who have partners such as Samsung, Apple, Qualcomm, Nvidia, & many more.
It really isn't black and white like this. Intel could make and manufacture ARM products if they wanted to. However, the profits margins would be lower than Intel would like. ARM vs Intel really isn't a thing as ARM is just a company holding patents on their product. It is really Intel vs Samsung, Intel vs Apple, Intel vs Qualcomm, etc.

No doubt about it, intel has sucked it up in the mobile market. I don't think that is because they couldn't do well there, I think it is because they didn't like the profit margins they were seeing. It is only now that mobile has become king that intel is doing a "Crap... we should have payed more attention here" and trying to get their act together.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
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"Intel claimed to be a top GPU company"

What? Intel is never going to make discrete graphics, they merely added integrated graphics onto a CPU die. On that front they've been successful, as HD3000/4000 has a far higher market share than either AMD or nvidia. It was never their goal to have discrete graphics performance on a cpu die - as mentioned on the AMA that would add too much cost and people would not pay for it. Their SSDs also sell very well especially in the enterprise sector. That is less than 1% of their revenue, though - it is hardly something they're completely focused on.

As it stands, HD4000 is plenty fine for 90% of users. Not everyone is a gamer needing discrete graphics. Of course, die hard apple iSheep will find fault with anything intel or PC related, I suppose.
 
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ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
20,378
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Regarding Intel competing with ARM in the mobile phone space, isn't there also a problem that Intel does not sell their CPU cores as licensed IP blocks?

With ARM you can buy the right to use an ARM core on your SoC chip. Then when designing the SoC chip you basically just "drag" that ARM core IP block into your design and then add what ever iGPU, I/O and radio technologies you want on it. So you can get very customized single chip solutions.

With Intel, that is not possible as I understand it?

Intel does allow 3rd party IP if you want it. But not many does this. Almost everyone uses of the shelves components. Including the wast majority of Samsungs smartphones-
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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I would be just as slow to write off Samsung and Qualcomm as I would Intel. Samsung has the funds. Market Cap 199B. That is bigger than Intel. Twice the size actually. And Qualcomm IS the same size as Intel at 103B compared to Intels 100B.

Remember the divisions inside Samsung doesnt work that close together. They happily uses a non Samsung product in their devices if its better suited. And not sure where you found the marketcap for Samsung Electronics, since its a privately held company.

And Qualcomms marketcap doesnt mean much as such. Personally I would say its a bubbled stock that only looks good as long as they can canibalize in their own ARM ranks. Just look at Apple. From 700 to 500 in a very short period.
2012-12-04_CLT1.jpg
 
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Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
4,225
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Intel does allow 3rd party IP if you want it. But not many does this. Almost everyone uses of the shelves components. Including the wast majority of Samsungs smartphones-

Really? I didn't know that. What Intel CPU cores can you buy as IP blocks and use in your own SoC designs? I guess you can't buy the rights to use an IB/Haswell CPU core for example... ;)
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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Wierd:
http://www.google.com/finance?q=KRX:005930&sq=samsugn+elecronics&sp=1&ei=UAnfUKDLG-aCwAOSBg

Their profit is much lower than Intels. Remember Samsung Electronics also makes dishwasters, fridges, stoves, Tvs etc ;)

(They are trying to sell off the TV part.)

And unfortunately. The semiconductor one is private:
http://www.google.com/finance?cid=7126000&ei=cwnfUKjDAcmHwAORUA

But their products cover alot more than ARM chips. Just like with Qualcomm.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
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Really? I didn't know that. What Intel CPU cores can you buy as IP blocks and use in your own SoC designs? I guess you can't buy the rights to use an IB/Haswell CPU core for example... ;)

I think the real question is, how entrenched is ARM architecture in the mobile space now.

Ie, ever since I can remember there have been faster/ more powerful chips than Intel x86. They never had a chance in the consumer / mass market space because they don't run x86 applications.

Isn't Intel on the other side of that divide now?

Does it matter if they make a chip that's 20% faster per watt (and that's IF they do that well in coming years)?

If I can't download and run apps from Android play store/ iTunes/ Amazon etc, or if I have to be really careful about which apps will / wont work, then that's a phone or tablet I DON'T want.

Ie, is ARM already entrenched to the point that Intel is not relevant? Just like the Z80, MC68000, MIPS, etc
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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I think the real question is, how entrenched is ARM architecture in the mobile space now.

Ie, ever since I can remember there have been faster/ more powerful chips than Intel x86. They never had a chance in the consumer / mass market space because they don't run x86 applications.

Isn't Intel on the other side of that divide now?

Does it matter if they make a chip that's 20% faster per watt (and that's IF they do that well in coming years)?

If I can't download and run apps from Android play store/ iTunes/ Amazon etc, or if I have to be really careful about which apps will / wont work, then that's a phone or tablet I DON'T want.

Ie, is ARM already entrenched to the point that Intel is not relevant? Just like the Z80, MC68000, MIPS, etc

You dont need ARM at all. The only ones that might need ARM is any Apple IOS apps. Everything else is JAVA and platform independent.

You can use the exact same apps from Google Play or Samsung Apps on an ARM Android as you can on an x86 Android.
 

shady28

Platinum Member
Apr 11, 2004
2,520
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You dont need ARM at all. The only ones that might need ARM is any Apple IOS apps. Everything else is JAVA and platform independent.

You can use the exact same apps from Google Play or Samsung Apps on an ARM Android as you can on an x86 Android.

This is only true in an idealistic code nirvana, not the real world. Google for NDK - 25% of android apps use this ARM native dev kit.

x86 phones use arm emulators to run these, which also means they run them slowly, if at all.
 

ShintaiDK

Lifer
Apr 22, 2012
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This is only true in an idealistic code nirvana, not the real world. Google for NDK - 25% of android apps use this ARM native dev kit.

x86 phones use arm emulators to run these, which also means they run them slowly, if at all.

Old or newer apps? Remember you also have compile dependency. An ARMv7 app wont run on ARMv5 for example.

http://developer.android.com/google/play/filters.html

I dont think many uses NDK anymore at all.

Before downloading the NDK, you should understand that the NDK will not benefit most apps. As a developer, you need to balance its benefits against its drawbacks. Notably, using native code on Android generally does not result in a noticable performance improvement, but it always increases your app complexity. In general, you should only use the NDK if it is essential to your app—never because you simply prefer to program in C/C++.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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As far as I know you can only use the Android software development kit today if you want your apps on Google Play.

NDK is perfectly fine for stuff on Google Play. Do you think Google would release a toolchain they then don't support? That'd be an awful lot of work on their part..

It also supports x86 fat binaries, but of course they have to be targeted and that doesn't do much for the software already out there.

NDK is big for a lot of software because otherwise it's much more work to get cross platform support for both Android and iOS. With NDK you can write the core in C++ (or similar) and have only some interface glue code in Java and ObjC respectively.

Some amount of code is going to also contain hand optimizations specifically for ARM, mainly w/NEON assembly or intrinsics because GCC is poor at auto-vectorization. Code will probably tend to have portable fallbacks, and GCC might auto-vectorize better when targeting x86 at that, but probably not as well as decently hand-written SIMD. But I have no idea what the criticality of such code is, just that people pursue it.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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This is only true in an idealistic code nirvana, not the real world. Google for NDK - 25% of android apps use this ARM native dev kit.

x86 phones use arm emulators to run these, which also means they run them slowly, if at all.

It's not exactly an emulator. It's binary translation...
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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It's not exactly an emulator. It's binary translation...

That's an insult to all the emulators out there that use translation :p

Intel's isn't magic either, their own whitepaper shows less than 50% native performance, where that means comparing a binary compiled targeting x86 with one targeting ARM with the same compiler, with the latter emulated. They got a little higher performance if they used a hardware tweak that let them bypass flags generation, but from what I've heard across some sources this tweak isn't part of any currently shipping silicon (no surprise - adding a new prefix to the ISA is a huge deal for something that only affects one class of processors in one type of task). IMO there are some improvements they could have made to the translation over what they presented in the paper and they may have already started making them, I don't really know. Someone really ought to do an indepth comparison of native vs emulated for some reasonable code, but that'll be the day when a review site starts writing test code for Android.

IIRC they were also using x86-64 which Medfield and Clover Trail don't have. The fewer registers are a big disadvantage for emulation.
 
Mar 10, 2006
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That's an insult to all the emulators out there that use translation :p

Intel's isn't magic either, their own whitepaper shows less than 50% native performance, where that means comparing a binary compiled targeting x86 with one targeting ARM with the same compiler, with the latter emulated. They got a little higher performance if they used a hardware tweak that let them bypass flags generation, but from what I've heard across some sources this tweak isn't part of any currently shipping silicon (no surprise - adding a new prefix to the ISA is a huge deal for something that only affects one class of processors in one type of task). IMO there are some improvements they could have made to the translation over what they presented in the paper and they may have already started making them, I don't really know. Someone really ought to do an indepth comparison of native vs emulated for some reasonable code, but that'll be the day when a review site starts writing test code for Android.

IIRC they were also using x86-64 which Medfield and Clover Trail don't have. The fewer registers are a big disadvantage for emulation.

Fair enough. But it seems clear to me that the binary translation is simply a band-aid until Intel can get developers to re-compile their code. From the reviews of the Motorola Droid Razr i, the apps compatibility is quickly becoming a non-issue.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
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You dont need ARM at all. The only ones that might need ARM is any Apple IOS apps. Everything else is JAVA and platform independent.

You can use the exact same apps from Google Play or Samsung Apps on an ARM Android as you can on an x86 Android.

iOS is ARM only, and that will likely never change even if Intel does get a large advantage. I don't think Apple would go for a proprietary solution again.

Android has a lot of ARM native apps, but the major apps are Java based. That said, the major apps don't really need the extra performance offered by a faster chip...the android market is driven by the cheapest chip that can kind of sort of do the job. Cheap dram integrated on the SOC would make a bigger difference there.

Windows Phone isn't really a player, but they probably could go x86 if they wanted to.
Blackberry probably could as well.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
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That's an insult to all the emulators out there that use translation :p

Intel's isn't magic either, their own whitepaper shows less than 50% native performance, where that means comparing a binary compiled targeting x86 with one targeting ARM with the same compiler, with the latter emulated. They got a little higher performance if they used a hardware tweak that let them bypass flags generation, but from what I've heard across some sources this tweak isn't part of any currently shipping silicon (no surprise - adding a new prefix to the ISA is a huge deal for something that only affects one class of processors in one type of task). IMO there are some improvements they could have made to the translation over what they presented in the paper and they may have already started making them, I don't really know. Someone really ought to do an indepth comparison of native vs emulated for some reasonable code, but that'll be the day when a review site starts writing test code for Android.

IIRC they were also using x86-64 which Medfield and Clover Trail don't have. The fewer registers are a big disadvantage for emulation.

Near 50% performance of a high end ARM processor using Atom would be quite the impressive trick.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
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Near 50% performance of a high end ARM processor using Atom would be quite the impressive trick.

That's not what the < 50% figure means. The description I gave was probably pretty confusing, let me try again..

When someone says that an emulator gets X% of native it means that you take:

1) Binary A is a program compiled for the native instruction set.
2) Binary B is a program compiled for the instruction set you're going to be emulating, using the same compiler (of course even the same compiler might produce better, sometimes much better code for a different ISA)

And then compare how binary A runs when executed directly vs how binary B runs when executed in the emulator.

It's not a comparison between the emulation and how it runs on something that natively executes what you're emulating. That only holds if the two chips have the exact same performance which is never going to be true.

On that point, I believe Atom and Cortex-A9 have similar perf/MHz with A9 being slightly higher, but even Medfield can turbo well past the clocks we see in A9s out (and has quite good power consumption at these high clocks, props to Intel for this). A lot of people will disagree. Some are even saying Krait and Atom have clock for clock parity. A lot of these conclusions are drawn from Javascript benchmarks; other stuff tends to paint a different picture. I've argued a lot about why I don't like JS benches and why I think JS engines are still generating better x86 code than ARM, even on this forum.. I won't bother repeating it, everyone is free to look at what data they can and draw their own conclusions. Hopefully no one thinks that Atom is ahead of Cortex-A15 in perf/MHz (and the MHz numbers are more similar with what we have so far), at least in single threaded stuff. And that's the current high end for ARM, with Swift being a near runner up. So doing nearly 50% native emulating ARM is not going to give you 50% highest end ARM performance. And honestly I think the real world numbers will be closer to 40% if not worse - the numbers for the non-hardware assist version were a little over 40%. But they're skewed over what you could get on Medfield by using x86-64, and they were systemically skewed because they got a huge benefit in one benchmark (mcf) because native used 64-bit pointers and emulated used 32-bit pointers.

Personally, I think ~40% or even 50% isn't good enough for anything performance critical. If if were we wouldn't be arguing about the finer points of CPU perf/W in mobile space.

On the other hand, I think the market interests are totally superficial anyway when you consider how much emphasis is placed on Javascript code which is throwing a huge amount of performance by virtue of the language. People are eager to pick over +/-20% perf/W in hardware (I am too, of course) but don't seem to care at all about code performing at 1/5th or worse what it could in a different language.

Intel17 said:
Fair enough. But it seems clear to me that the binary translation is simply a band-aid until Intel can get developers to re-compile their code. From the reviews of the Motorola Droid Razr i, the apps compatibility is quickly becoming a non-issue.

Pretty much, but you can't get everyone to convert. Unless Intel wants to write out a LOT of big checks. Until the market share is compelling some will even avoid it purely out of bias.

I'm curious, did these reviews test a lot of games? I've read two Medfield reviews that looked into app compatibility. One of them tested exactly one game and it ran fine. The other tested two games and one ran fine while the other ran poorly. Seems to me review sites barely care about testing games on phones. But games are among the more intensive software.

I'm not a normal market player so this might not matter, but I've written thousands of lines of (Cortex-A8/A0 optimized) NEON for mobile platforms. Until Intel becomes a much bigger player here there's no way I'm even entertaining the idea of writing thousands of lines of Atom-optimized SSSE3. Believe me, both tasks are awful.

Unfortunately for Intel, I suspect that said hand-optimized NEON is going to fare worse than average in their binary translation, this stuff doesn't map that well at all.
 
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