The American Dream

[soulcougher73]

It's pretty plain to me - is there an arbitrary number where we say people can do longer earn because they have too much? 100K? Million? Is there a cap on the American dream? From reading the responses I get the idea that maybe the America I grew up isn't going to be the same for my grand kids. Everybody who is rich fucked someone else to get it, right? How much of a straw man is that? What's the number where the America Dream ends and the raping of the world begins?

Maybe their just needs to be a point where you as an individual deems you DO have too much and its unneccessary wealth for the sake of just having a lot of wealth. I personally would feel guilty having $1billion when others are scraping by in life. There is no way i could ever even care to try and spend that much money. Its just an obscene about to me. I'd be happy making $100k/year before i felt anymore than that was just wasted money id rather someone else have.

But that is just me. Money doesnt drive me in life. Sure its nice but even i know when enough is enough and now i just have too much.

 

[CPA]

Material needs? Like some right to an iPad or V8? I think people have the right to pursue monetary gain, as long as the methods used don't infringe on other people's rights. Notice a common theme here? I will add one more caveat in this instance though. I believe in a practical approach to limiting the destruction of the environment.
Only central government? No, there are many regulations and laws that are best left to the states, just as there are many that are best left to the local level as well.

I agree with most of what you posted here and your previous post, however, it's quit easy to infringe on my rights when you start involving the environment.

If I own a 100 acres and it happens to be the home of some "protected" species of insect, and thus I am restricted on what I can do on my land, my rights have been infringed.

To that end, property rights, full property rights should be included as part of individual rights not to be infringed.

 

[CPA]

If this forum is much more liberal than other sites, you must have been spending all your time at that cesspool of human filth called Freepervile. Even to refer to this place as liberal is odd given all the right-wing asshats here.

Look at any poll that gets placed up here. They, by and large, skew liberal in responses.

Asshat.

 

[CPA]

ky54

False outrage. Please cite the Congressional bill that establishes "people can do longer earn because they have too much".

As far as "Everybody who is rich fucked someone else to get it, right?" there is no such blanket condemnation. But there are an awful lot of individual instances for examples and they should rightly be scorned and condemned. If enough of it is exposed, it tends to look like a pattern. Wouldn't you agree?

And there's a lot of poor people and middle class people that fucked over others to get something. What's your point?

 

[dmcowen674]

The American Dream

This forum is much more liberal than other sites I've posted at

WTF?

WWYBYWB?

Stop lying, there are only a couple of Liberals like me while a shit ton of rabid rich right-wingers like you and only one liberal forum manager.

 

[werepossum]

Life, liberty and the persuit of happiness. Liberty to me defined as do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights.

I have strong 'liberal' tendencies. I think prostitution and all drugs should be legal. I think there should be zero religion in politics other than freedom of religion, again with the caveat that you do not infringe on others' rights.

I do not believe that states should have the right to pass laws that infringe on people's rights or allow people to infringe on other people's rights.

I believe if you see someone doing something you don't agree with, you should mind your own business unless that act is infringing on someone else's rights.

I do not believe people have the right to not be offended.

I can go on and on but that's a start.

I agree with pretty much all that, although I suspect we would differ greatly on what "freedom of religion" and "religion in politics" actually mean. And I don't know I'd support legalizing all drugs; I think some have such adverse effects that no one can use them without being a danger to others.

I'd say the American Dream is honest work with enough income to have a a home or farm or apartment of your own, a measure of security, support a family, and enjoy some small luxuries, and the freedom to pursue whatever you wish, without government interference AND without corporations or other people controlling the economy to the point of denying you a fair shot if you have a better idea. Most of us are not particularly interested in becoming rich, but we're enamored of the idea that if we one day had an idea or concept that could make us so, that idea and honest hard work could make us reasonably wealthy.

 

[Paul98]

I agree with most of what you posted here and your previous post, however, it's quit easy to infringe on my rights when you start involving the environment.

If I own a 100 acres and it happens to be the home of some "protected" species of insect, and thus I am restricted on what I can do on my land, my rights have been infringed.

To that end, property rights, full property rights should be included as part of individual rights not to be infringed.

I am going to partially agree with you, and at least you have a reason for why you can't build certain things. I had a problem building just because our city planning commission didn't like it, for no apparent reason.

As for property it's going to depend on what the unintended things happen to other people and the environment. You may not see what you are doing or may not feel what you do, while still having a large impact.

 

[Paul98]

The thing we need to be wary of is that our short term american dream may bad in the long term. It may be good for me short term, but cause harm to others in the long term. If we started looking at the long term american dream, we would be doing things very different than what we are doing now. But most of what others said about freedom is similar to what I think.

 

[ky54]

If this forum is much more liberal than other sites, you must have been spending all your time at that cesspool of human filth called Freepervile. Even to refer to this place as liberal is odd given all the right-wing asshats here.

Look at the presidential poll and it's overwhelming Obama. So far I have seen very few right wing anything. I've seen heaps of praise for Obama saving the world from North Korea and the economy and all the rest of that bullshit. I've seen religious bigorty that would make the Klan blush. And the class warfare is off the charts so I naturally asked a basic question of what is the American Dream. And I'm assuming you mean the Free Republican which I haven't been to in years. I mostly hang out at international forums but I wanted to get a look at what the techies were talking about. I guess maybe it's because I'm probably a lot older than most of you (56) that my view of this country is a bit biased toward the old view of America where the only limits are the limits you put on yourself. I'm amazed, quite frankly, to see so many people so willing to trust their freedoms to a government that doesn't deserve it. When you look to government for a solution to anything but most especially things like economic "justice" that same government will be more than willing to accommodate you. There's a very, very thin line between freedom and oppression and I fear we are galloping dangerously over that line.

Edit - I did want to add that it's a good discussion so far. Very enlightening.

 

[ky54]

WTF?

WWYBYWB?

Stop lying, there are only a couple of Liberals like me while a shit ton of rabid rich right-wingers like you and only one liberal forum manager.

Wow, then someone forgot to tell my bank that I'm rich! And probably in your world I lean to the right. Probably almost everyone with heartbeat.

 

[dank69]

Look at the presidential poll and it's overwhelming Obama. ...

Which poll are you talking about? The one asking how we would vote if Santorum was the GOP nominee? That's not a true litmus test of a community.

How about this poll? Not quite so drastic anymore, huh?

I won't deny that there are probably more dems here than reps, but there is no shortage of reps. There are even a bunch of paulbots here that I'm sure would be right up your alley. Everything from a full bore confederalist to a Harold Camping end of the world nutter and plenty of government is evil revolution is coming D/R don't matter in between.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I just don't know what to say . So I will spell it out with a link . If your poor your lazy.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_does_a_hobo_earn

 

[Muse]

OK, off the top of my head, The American Dream is based on the ideas that you can achieve what you want to fundamentally if you persist. You can get what you need, the opportunity is there. You can follow your dreams, you have freedom to express yourself, be yourself. You don't have to be like everybody else, that's quite impossible in America anyway, because there's so much diversity. So, you have the freedom to be different, if you want to, as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others. Something like that.

 

[jackschmittusa]

CPA

The point was about corporations.

Want to start a new discussion about poor people screwing people over?

A discussion about how poor people might screw over a handful of people, while corporations can do it to millions?

 

[CPA]

I am going to partially agree with you, and at least you have a reason for why you can't build certain things. I had a problem building just because our city planning commission didn't like it, for no apparent reason.

As for property it's going to depend on what the unintended things happen to other people and the environment. You may not see what you are doing or may not feel what you do, while still having a large impact.

Sure, and it makes sense, IF what I am doing infringes on an individual. However, the last 25 years, we have put the "rights" of other living things above humans and it seems that our property rights have suffered the most.

As for your first paragraph, while I live in an HOA-administered subdivision, I also live in a county that has little to no building restrictions, so I am free to do what I please on my property. One of the reasons I moved here.

 

[CPA]

CPA

The point was about corporations.

Want to start a new discussion about poor people screwing people over?

A discussion about how poor people might screw over a handful of people, while corporations can do it to millions?

Corporation or not, your statement was regarding "awful lot of individual instances for examples and they should rightly be scorned and condemned. If enough of it is exposed, it tends to look like a pattern." I took that to mean individual people, not individual corporations. Furthermore, I also interpreted your post to mean that because we have a few (relatively speaking) instances of rich people (madoff, stanford, some hedge fund owners) screwing people over, that most, if not all, rich people screw folks over. That is hogwash and there is blanket condemnation by many people about how rich folks get their money.

Most rich people DO NOT inherit their money. Most DO NOT screw people over. Most DO NOT ride the backs of slave labor. These are things, as well as other excuses, you hear constantly on this board. And it's the way I interpreted your post.

This country has come to scorn success, even ridicule it. I just don't understand that thinking. But, I understand how it's gotten that way: we've become a country of entitlement. We've come to believe that if someone else has something we don't have, then that person has obviously stolen if from someone else, most likely me.

 

[Jaskalas]

This forum is much more liberal than other sites I've posted at so I wanted to gauge how the most fundamental of American ideals - the American Dream - is seen here. What is the American Dream and how do we achieve it?

Freedom and liberty to achieve equal opportunity.

AKA, trying to stop the formation of an elite ruling class. I fear we've failed.

 

[werepossum]

Corporation or not, your statement was regarding "awful lot of individual instances for examples and they should rightly be scorned and condemned. If enough of it is exposed, it tends to look like a pattern." I took that to mean individual people, not individual corporations. Furthermore, I also interpreted your post to mean that because we have a few (relatively speaking) instances of rich people (madoff, stanford, some hedge fund owners) screwing people over, that most, if not all, rich people screw folks over. That is hogwash and there is blanket condemnation by many people about how rich folks get their money.

Most rich people DO NOT inherit their money. Most DO NOT screw people over. Most DO NOT ride the backs of slave labor. These are things, as well as other excuses, you hear constantly on this board. And it's the way I interpreted your post.

This country has come to scorn success, even ridicule it. I just don't understand that thinking. But, I understand how it's gotten that way: we've become a country of entitlement. We've come to believe that if someone else has something we don't have, then that person has obviously stolen if from someone else, most likely me.

Damned well said. I'm more on the environmental side than you, but both posts were very well put and make good points.

Freedom and liberty to achieve equal opportunity.

AKA, trying to stop the formation of an elite ruling class. I fear we've failed.

As do I. I tend to agree with CPA that success in business or science should be much more celebrated than success in acting or music, but increasingly we're seeing government involvement in business to remove the risk in business while putting up substantial barriers to new entrepreneurs. Those two things tend to lock in a financial elite, and that's a short step toward a ruling elite. Same with political dynasties; I would never support Jeb Bush because we've already had his father and his brother.

 

[Muse]

Corporation or not, your statement was regarding "awful lot of individual instances for examples and they should rightly be scorned and condemned. If enough of it is exposed, it tends to look like a pattern." I took that to mean individual people, not individual corporations. Furthermore, I also interpreted your post to mean that because we have a few (relatively speaking) instances of rich people (madoff, stanford, some hedge fund owners) screwing people over, that most, if not all, rich people screw folks over. That is hogwash and there is blanket condemnation by many people about how rich folks get their money.

Most rich people DO NOT inherit their money. Most DO NOT screw people over. Most DO NOT ride the backs of slave labor. These are things, as well as other excuses, you hear constantly on this board. And it's the way I interpreted your post.

This country has come to scorn success, even ridicule it. I just don't understand that thinking. But, I understand how it's gotten that way: we've become a country of entitlement. We've come to believe that if someone else has something we don't have, then that person has obviously stolen if from someone else, most likely me.

There was an article on the front page of yesterday's Oakland Tribune about research done by a UC Berkeley researcher (Paul Piff), that indicates that rich people are more likely than most to cheat, have poor ethics. The titles of the article look like this:

Social Status Sets Moral Tenor?

Research to really annoy 99% of you

Rich have poor grasp of ethics, are prone to cheat, study finds

by Matt O'Brien

 

[dank69]

Corporation or not, your statement was regarding "awful lot of individual instances for examples and they should rightly be scorned and condemned. If enough of it is exposed, it tends to look like a pattern." I took that to mean individual people, not individual corporations. Furthermore, I also interpreted your post to mean that because we have a few (relatively speaking) instances of rich people (madoff, stanford, some hedge fund owners) screwing people over, that most, if not all, rich people screw folks over. That is hogwash and there is blanket condemnation by many people about how rich folks get their money.

Most rich people DO NOT inherit their money. Most DO NOT screw people over. Most DO NOT ride the backs of slave labor. These are things, as well as other excuses, you hear constantly on this board. And it's the way I interpreted your post.

This country has come to scorn success, even ridicule it. I just don't understand that thinking. But, I understand how it's gotten that way: we've become a country of entitlement. We've come to believe that if someone else has something we don't have, then that person has obviously stolen if from someone else, most likely me.

Most corporations are off shoring labor to make a quick buck. Who makes those decisions? Poor people? Government? No, rich people make those decisions. I'm not saying all rich people are evil but I'd be willing to bet that >50% are in the sense that they would forclose on a struggling family in a heartbeat if it improved their stock value a quarter point.

 

[ky54]

Great posts everyone! Some very interesting points.

It does seem what we used to think of the American Dream - the house with the white picket fence, the 2.3 kids, a dog, and cat - has changed dramatically. I wonder how much 9/11 had to do with it and the programs that have been put in place since (Patriot Act, TSA, etc) where the focus has changed from the material aspect of the American Dream to the more fundamental rights that should be INHERENT in being a citizen and if that is true we have back slid mightily. Of course the economic collapse of our housing and banking insitutions have definitely changed the confidence Americans have that our future will be better. I think between 9/11 and the economy the younger folks (30 and under) have a far different view than those of use who are somewhat older.

I think it's safe to say the American Dream, while it may not be dead, is on life-support. What I think divides most Americans is whether or not to pull the plug.

 

[jackschmittusa]

"individual instances" was a reference to specific examples rather than a moronic "they're all bad" in general.

Historic examples are legion. More modern examples include companies with multiple offenses but I will list 1 each.

Sony - infecting millions with a root kit that was easily exploited by people meaning to do their customers harm

Intel - illegal payoffs to Dell and others to suppress adoption of AMD chips

Countrywide - pushing aside any fears or questions customers might have and insisting they could pay the mortgages being offered.

investment banks - threatening ratings companies if they did not receive the desired ratings.

Microsoft - intentionally working to destroy competitors like Netscape.

mining companies - defying safety rules to put profit above the lives of their employees.

Koch bros. - using shadow organizations to buy legislation allowing greater pollution for greater profits.

I could go on and on.

 

[monovillage]

Great posts everyone! Some very interesting points.

It does seem what we used to think of the American Dream - the house with the white picket fence, the 2.3 kids, a dog, and cat - has changed dramatically. I wonder how much 9/11 had to do with it and the programs that have been put in place since (Patriot Act, TSA, etc) where the focus has changed from the material aspect of the American Dream to the more fundamental rights that should be INHERENT in being a citizen and if that is true we have back slid mightily. Of course the economic collapse of our housing and banking insitutions have definitely changed the confidence Americans have that our future will be better. I think between 9/11 and the economy the younger folks (30 and under) have a far different view than those of use who are somewhat older.

I think it's safe to say the American Dream, while it may not be dead, is on life-support. What I think divides most Americans is whether or not to pull the plug.

I disagree, the American dream is alive and well, it's just more difficult with more obstacles/temptations to achieve it.

 

[piasabird]

If you are a single parent making $12,000 working at some part time job with 2 kids, you will probably get a standard deduction and an earned income credit totaling about a $8,000 income tax return. So why would they want to be married? If they had 2 incomes to report they wouldnt qualify for the earned income credit. This is just tax code legislation which encourages people not to get married.